I didn't see it as condescending. But maybe that's just because I agree with it.
Arohanui - Ake Ake KiaKaha's Journal
- Thread starter KiaKaha
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I didn't see it as condescending. But maybe that's just because I agree with it.
KiaKaha
Banned
I have been on my feet for about the last 24 hours - This is the first moment I have had to respond to all the posts properly.
You know I have been trying to process a lot of what has been said, and a lot of my own thoughts.
Firstly I am *not* living in the disney version of life. I am not an idiot nor am I naive.... I merely acknowledge that I dont know everything - however in saying that, there are somethings that I do know - as well as some things that I disagree with according to the my own personal world view and my own reality - just like you - and just like everyone else around you.
I am not intimidated by anyone on this forum.
In regards to the kissing and cuddling thing and then being rejected - I personally feel that this is being lead on and that these girls are not being completely honest.
HOWEVER - I can recognize that there may be a deeper reason behind it.
That does not mean I condone the behvaiour. In fact I think it's quite rude.
Just as 狼 pointed out - some men will sleep with a girl (after seducing them, giving them expectations etc) and then never calling. How would that make YOU feel?
Kissing and cuddling on the first date is the same thing (well both sides of the same coin really) - If I had known this girl for sometime and there was already an established sense of trust and familiarity of one another - then sure cuddle away.
If it is a first date - then that is an expression of interest to get more intimate - I cant understand how someone cannot understand this concept.
Really it is a matter of common courtesy - and I think anyone who disagrees is merely trying to justify their own personal agenda and values - to ensure that what they believe in makes them feel OK - or to give them more power.
So according to some of you - if a girl cuddles you on a first date - that means she is not interested really - so how is one supposed to know if someone is interested in you more than just a one off? this is NOT the same as physical intimacy - it is called flirtation - a concept I am sure some of you may have heard of before. Everyone reacts to the world around them based on the information you receive...right? Maybe she will rip my clothes off and say "TAKE ME NOW I LOVE YOU YOU ARE MY GOD" does that mean I can get my hopes up? where is the line people? How am I supposed to know?
Very sensible - and very wise thoughts. I can acknowledge that people lead each other on all the time - I am aware of that - but that is not the point of what it is that I am saying. That is an entirely different argument. It really is about honestly.
While everyone is different yes you cant expect everyone to share the same cultural view - as it is very blatantly obvious in the responses I received - but in fact, there ARE standards that all of us adhere to, there are commonalities that - that we all share - and I think the opposite view of this, is yet again - an excuse.
You can judge me all you want (you are only what people think you are) . I know that I am good person - and the people who have met me, and know me realize this too. If you happen to think through my posts that I am disingenuous or that I am not all that I appear to be. Well quite frankly - you will never know. I constantly go out of my way to make everyone feel included and needed - I use courtesy manners and consideration for other peoples feelings. These are behaviours that I value and are often not reciprocated but I do them anyway - I extend gestures that a lot of other people in my view are unwilling to give themselves. I only wanted to address this because whether or not you dont believe me - is irrelevant to anything I have said - and just illustrates once again how quickly people like to think they have everything outside of themselves worked out.
More from my incredibly deep and insightful countrymen.
I have more to say on what *I* think is going on with this particular woman. I had a discussion about this with someone last night - and I need to write out what it is I think is going on with her.
You know I have been trying to process a lot of what has been said, and a lot of my own thoughts.
Firstly I am *not* living in the disney version of life. I am not an idiot nor am I naive.... I merely acknowledge that I dont know everything - however in saying that, there are somethings that I do know - as well as some things that I disagree with according to the my own personal world view and my own reality - just like you - and just like everyone else around you.
I am not intimidated by anyone on this forum.
In regards to the kissing and cuddling thing and then being rejected - I personally feel that this is being lead on and that these girls are not being completely honest.
HOWEVER - I can recognize that there may be a deeper reason behind it.
That does not mean I condone the behvaiour. In fact I think it's quite rude.
Just as 狼 pointed out - some men will sleep with a girl (after seducing them, giving them expectations etc) and then never calling. How would that make YOU feel?
Kissing and cuddling on the first date is the same thing (well both sides of the same coin really) - If I had known this girl for sometime and there was already an established sense of trust and familiarity of one another - then sure cuddle away.
If it is a first date - then that is an expression of interest to get more intimate - I cant understand how someone cannot understand this concept.
Really it is a matter of common courtesy - and I think anyone who disagrees is merely trying to justify their own personal agenda and values - to ensure that what they believe in makes them feel OK - or to give them more power.
So according to some of you - if a girl cuddles you on a first date - that means she is not interested really - so how is one supposed to know if someone is interested in you more than just a one off? this is NOT the same as physical intimacy - it is called flirtation - a concept I am sure some of you may have heard of before. Everyone reacts to the world around them based on the information you receive...right? Maybe she will rip my clothes off and say "TAKE ME NOW I LOVE YOU YOU ARE MY GOD" does that mean I can get my hopes up? where is the line people? How am I supposed to know?
Very sensible - and very wise thoughts. I can acknowledge that people lead each other on all the time - I am aware of that - but that is not the point of what it is that I am saying. That is an entirely different argument. It really is about honestly.
While everyone is different yes you cant expect everyone to share the same cultural view - as it is very blatantly obvious in the responses I received - but in fact, there ARE standards that all of us adhere to, there are commonalities that - that we all share - and I think the opposite view of this, is yet again - an excuse.
You can judge me all you want (you are only what people think you are) . I know that I am good person - and the people who have met me, and know me realize this too. If you happen to think through my posts that I am disingenuous or that I am not all that I appear to be. Well quite frankly - you will never know. I constantly go out of my way to make everyone feel included and needed - I use courtesy manners and consideration for other peoples feelings. These are behaviours that I value and are often not reciprocated but I do them anyway - I extend gestures that a lot of other people in my view are unwilling to give themselves. I only wanted to address this because whether or not you dont believe me - is irrelevant to anything I have said - and just illustrates once again how quickly people like to think they have everything outside of themselves worked out.
More from my incredibly deep and insightful countrymen.
I have more to say on what *I* think is going on with this particular woman. I had a discussion about this with someone last night - and I need to write out what it is I think is going on with her.
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coyote
Well-known member
you asked for honest answers
but you seem to refuse to accept anything that doesn't agree with your own point of view.
it seems that you feel that you should question everything,
and that's very wise.
but the one thing you seem reluctant to question
is your own view of the world,
and that's really all i've ever tried to encourage you to do.
how can we expect to find answers if we aren't prepared to look for them in the most uncomfortable places, or accept them when they are presented?
:Ꭶ
but you seem to refuse to accept anything that doesn't agree with your own point of view.
it seems that you feel that you should question everything,
and that's very wise.
but the one thing you seem reluctant to question
is your own view of the world,
and that's really all i've ever tried to encourage you to do.
how can we expect to find answers if we aren't prepared to look for them in the most uncomfortable places, or accept them when they are presented?
:Ꭶ
KiaKaha
Banned
I don't know. Maybe you are both right in your own worlds. In which case - I would really hate to date either of you if that is the attitude you adopt toward dating - quite frankly, I just think its really disrespectful, one sided, unfair and insulting. But hey - each to their own.
I do question my own world view. I don't know if you realize this but this entire journal is nothing but questions and confusion - and nearly all of my threads invoke discussion and asks a question... it is very rare that I know the answer - I may not agree, but I am not so self assured that everything that I say is absolute gospel. I am uncertain of everything - except just like everyone else I need to have some degree of stability otherwise I will not be able to function - I guess I just have a hard time with people being jerks or not actually giving any thought to how others are feeling, and then rationalizing it so that it is acceptable - it's how I roll - call it my signature move.
There is a difference between challenging a view, being honest - and justifying your own view.
But yes - you are quite right - I simply dont believe you.
I find it very very difficult to believe that these so called mistakes I am making are a coincidence - sure not ALL of these women are getting physically closer and then, by the theory presented - pulling away for whatever reason. I dont buy it.
I am also aware of the perception that some people have of me - and that is fine.
Advice to all you single guys out there - if she kisses and cuddles you - it now means that she doesnt necessarily like you.
Completely logical.
I do question my own world view. I don't know if you realize this but this entire journal is nothing but questions and confusion - and nearly all of my threads invoke discussion and asks a question... it is very rare that I know the answer - I may not agree, but I am not so self assured that everything that I say is absolute gospel. I am uncertain of everything - except just like everyone else I need to have some degree of stability otherwise I will not be able to function - I guess I just have a hard time with people being jerks or not actually giving any thought to how others are feeling, and then rationalizing it so that it is acceptable - it's how I roll - call it my signature move.
There is a difference between challenging a view, being honest - and justifying your own view.
But yes - you are quite right - I simply dont believe you.
I find it very very difficult to believe that these so called mistakes I am making are a coincidence - sure not ALL of these women are getting physically closer and then, by the theory presented - pulling away for whatever reason. I dont buy it.
I am also aware of the perception that some people have of me - and that is fine.
Advice to all you single guys out there - if she kisses and cuddles you - it now means that she doesnt necessarily like you.
Completely logical.
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Starry
Well-known member
Kia, I agree with you... I think all the people trying to justify the behaviour, simply because it exists (and the people who practice such behaviour) would be incredibly annoyed and upset if the same were to happen to them when they want something more... They'd feel used... Just because behaviour is common doesn't mean that the vast majority actually agree with it, certainly not when it's inflicted upon them... And I'm not even going to go into how easily people can fool themselves over things. We must always question everything, and simply saying it exists so it's fine doesn't do that...
Oh and I've encountered people that use others, they're usually the first to complain about the slightest thing when people use them... People have double standards, and they have to realise that it is unfair to have such.
I'm actually incredibly tired at the moment, so I apologise if this post makes no sense...
Oh and I've encountered people that use others, they're usually the first to complain about the slightest thing when people use them... People have double standards, and they have to realise that it is unfair to have such.
I'm actually incredibly tired at the moment, so I apologise if this post makes no sense...
1BlackSheep
Well-known member
My thoughts exactly, but you said it much better than I could!
Rembrandt Broam
Well-known member
I really think that this one girl's behaviour was NOT typical at all. If a girl is kissing you (and I mean in a romantic way, not a good-night peck on the cheek) then it will almost certainly means she has some interest in you beyond being friends. After all, who gets all kissy and cuddly with their platonic friends?
I honestly don't know what was going on with her, but she seems pretty mixed up on sending out the right social signals and cues, and I think most guys would have been just as confused as you are. But please don't take this one bad experience as typical and let is poison your interaction with other girls.
Good god! First time I've had a peruse at this thread. Kia, did you actually ask in this thread for any advice (and judge and jury) ? I thought these kind of threads were like twittering....
'Remus ate beans on toast for breakfast, had a poo, read the morning papers'
'Remus ate beans on toast for breakfast, had a poo, read the morning papers'
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Kat
Well-known member
I think it’s established she at least knows she is physically attracted to you maybe she just want to be friends with you to see if there’s some substance to your relationship and you can have something more. Physical attraction is instant for some people and a woman’s heart is usually a deep ocean of secrets.
. Physical attraction is instant for some people and a woman’s heart is usually a deep ocean of secrets.
KiaKaha
Banned
Look - I feel a bit bad with my extreme despondency toward how incredibly disappointing life seems to continually treat me . I just want to be dealt with straight. Its not a big ask. Disappointment is something that happens to me all the time - and it breaks my heart every time I feel good - in fact I have severe anxiety every time something makes me feel good because I just KNOW that it is not going to last. So much so that I can go round and round and round in circles trying to understand the whys and the hows. Churning away until I can barely take it.
I am suspicious - I feel that there is a HUGE discrepancy between what people say they value - and what people really do. I think there is a lot of hidden desire - and that there is a lot of rationalizing to justify that desire.
Yes, men do it to women too - of course they do - and it is exactly the same thing - which is just as distasteful and dishonest. Being a heterosexual male - naturally I am going to look at things from a male perspective. I dont deserve it - and neither do my female counterparts.
if someone has a different view and is trying to convince me of unscrupulous behaviour - it simply is not going to happen - not unless you can give me a reason that is different from substantiation.
If only I could read minds - things would be SO MUCH EASIER
We all want to be accepted right? But hey - I learned a long time ago not to expect all that much from other people anyway.
In saying that - I do read all the responses people contribute.
I am suspicious - I feel that there is a HUGE discrepancy between what people say they value - and what people really do. I think there is a lot of hidden desire - and that there is a lot of rationalizing to justify that desire.
Yes, men do it to women too - of course they do - and it is exactly the same thing - which is just as distasteful and dishonest. Being a heterosexual male - naturally I am going to look at things from a male perspective. I dont deserve it - and neither do my female counterparts.
if someone has a different view and is trying to convince me of unscrupulous behaviour - it simply is not going to happen - not unless you can give me a reason that is different from substantiation.
If only I could read minds - things would be SO MUCH EASIER
We all want to be accepted right? But hey - I learned a long time ago not to expect all that much from other people anyway.
In saying that - I do read all the responses people contribute.
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Rembrandt Broam
Well-known member
Oh God yes! There is absolutely a discrepancy. A lot of people will say they think or want what they believe they are expected to think or want. It takes a huge amount of courage to stand up and say you think differently or want different things than everyone else. It's much easier to just go along with the crowd. I honestly believe this is at the root of a lot of people's unhappiness.
coyote
Well-known member
you are probably growing tired of my analogies...
but if someone posted on the forum that they just learned of a murder in their village
and the rumors were that the violence was a result of the offender hating the victim because of their skin color
and the person posting claimed they were shocked because they had never heard of such a thing happening, and that they couldn't accept that anything so stupid could be the reason for the murder, and that it MUST be something else
and if i were to point out to that person that this sort of thing has been happening for many thousands of years, so of course it could be the reason
would you then assume that i condone racism, hatred, or violence - or, worse, that I'M a racist who murders people?
but if someone posted on the forum that they just learned of a murder in their village
and the rumors were that the violence was a result of the offender hating the victim because of their skin color
and the person posting claimed they were shocked because they had never heard of such a thing happening, and that they couldn't accept that anything so stupid could be the reason for the murder, and that it MUST be something else
and if i were to point out to that person that this sort of thing has been happening for many thousands of years, so of course it could be the reason
would you then assume that i condone racism, hatred, or violence - or, worse, that I'M a racist who murders people?
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MollyBeGood
Well-known member
First and foremost we have to learn to accept ourselves.
then other peoples hypocritical and lack of true feeling-behavior won't be so upsetting. You just move on and keep looking for the good stuff, but it's all in you already, you don't need someone to complete you.
then other peoples hypocritical and lack of true feeling-behavior won't be so upsetting. You just move on and keep looking for the good stuff, but it's all in you already, you don't need someone to complete you.
1BlackSheep
Well-known member
But using your rationale, we are supposed to be accepting of other people's actions, whether we agree with them or not, no?
Again, it seems like a convenient "excuse" to condone only certain types of behavior.
Labyrinthine
Well-known member
Might be counterproductive, since you probably wouldn't like people very much if you could.
coyote
Well-known member
accepting as in recognizing that they exist
being aware of them
not accepting as in approving of them
to acknowledge the existence of a thing doesn't mean you have to like it
=^}
(approval or disapproval is a whole different debate)
1BlackSheep
Well-known member
But, if we're not accepting or don't like it, we're apparently living in a "Disney" world. I call it having a backbone, but to each their own.
And with that, I'm going to shut up now so I don't get Kia's journal locked because I'm too mouthy!
KiaKaha
Banned
Coyote that is where we fundamentally disagree - and it keeps coming up over and over and over again.
Of course bad things exist and that things just happen that we cant change and that they must be acknowledged.... I am not as naive to think "oh my goodness, I am ever so mightily shocked that bad things happen in the world and I am so aghast that I cant get my own way....oh deary goodness...its all so terribly frightful and shocking"
No - I get that. I just dont accept it.
And what would the world be like if we did just recognize such problems and were just merely aware of them? Does it make it OK? Is it OK ti complain, get upset, feel a sense of injustice, feel hurt, confused or angry? Or is the fact that when we recognize that things dont go our way - for whatever reason - it just makes it OK, because that is life.
No - I am not buying it.
Of course bad things exist and that things just happen that we cant change and that they must be acknowledged.... I am not as naive to think "oh my goodness, I am ever so mightily shocked that bad things happen in the world and I am so aghast that I cant get my own way....oh deary goodness...its all so terribly frightful and shocking"
No - I get that. I just dont accept it.
And what would the world be like if we did just recognize such problems and were just merely aware of them? Does it make it OK? Is it OK ti complain, get upset, feel a sense of injustice, feel hurt, confused or angry? Or is the fact that when we recognize that things dont go our way - for whatever reason - it just makes it OK, because that is life.
No - I am not buying it.