Nice guys finish last...

[Silatuyok]

Nice Guys - YouTube

I WANT her polka dot dress!!

Anyway...

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

A lot of what I am reading here seems to suggest that guys fall into one of two categories: either good (nice) or bad (abusive jerks). Really? There is no in between? You are either a saint or a devil?

I asked what the equivalent of "being a nice guy" was for women, and I think I have figured it out (I may get censored for this, and I am only saying it 'cause I think it adds to the discussion...) For women being nice is a positive thing...the opposite of nice for a woman is being a whore. You are either a good girl or a slut. Is that right or wrong? Feel free to disagree with that statement. Of course, I don't agree with that statement, but some people have that opinion of women. I think there is a gray area between these two extremes. I don't have to choose between being a good girl or being a you know what. I just have to be me and stay true to who I am.

If a guy is very nice, he is more likely to not try to have sex with a woman. If a guy is aggressive, he is more likely to be a jerk at times (or often for some guys), therefore he is more likely to try to have sex with a woman because he doesn't care about the woman's feelings, he just wants to get laid.

I am gonna be blunt here: I like to have sex, so a guy who is willing and says so is more likely to get sex from me than a guy who is waiting for me to make the first move. I won't think he is a jerk because he made the first move either. I have had sex with "nice" guys, and the whole time I feel like I am taking advantage of them or something because they are so nice and I am just being a big whore making the first move. In my experience, it is the nice guys that tend to have that view of women btw.

He wants to let it happen, instead of make it happen like the aggressive guy wants to do.

No, he doesn't want to risk rejection, and that fear paralyzes him to do anything. So he is waiting for the woman to make things easy for him and make the first move.

that's black and white thinking

it doesn't have to be one way or the other

you can be assertive/aggressive and still be a kind and decent person

and, as someone else mentioned, there are plenty of unassertive guys who are "misoogynist pricks," too

there's lots of shades of grey in this big world of ours

Yes, coyote, I agree 100% with what you are saying. Sometimes it is hard to see those shades of grey but they are there.

Speaking of aggression...when it comes to domesticated animals (like humans, cows, dogs, etc) it is the ones who show little fear and little aggression who are best adapted to advancing, from an evolutionary standpoint. For example, it was those wolves who showed little fear toward humans, but who were also not aggressive toward humans, who ended up being domesticated into over 700 genetically different species of dogs. (Thank you, NOVA.)

Anyway, my point is that, from a cultured human race standpoint, it is those middle-of-the-roaders who will be most successful at passing on their genes to their progeny. They will be the ones who finish first. And those who are fearful (like many of us) and those who are aggressive (like the "not nice" guys) are basically the evolutionary stalemate. So, we both lose.

The trick is not to be the nice guy or the bad boy, but the mediocre mate.

I found that really interesting to read. Thanks for sharing, Marie.

 

[coyote]

do so many socially anxious men have such a poor understanding of women because they are afraid to get to know them?

or are they afraid to get to know women because they have such a poor understanding of them?

 

[Aletheia]

I won't think he is a jerk because he made the first move either.

The best sexual partners in my experience are the ones who demonstrate both consideration and enthusiasm.

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

do so many socially anxious men have such a poor understanding of women because they are afraid to get to know them?

or are they afraid to get to know women because they have such a poor understanding of them?

Yes.

______________

 

[Silatuyok]

do so many socially anxious men have such a poor understanding of women because they are afraid to get to know them?

or are they afraid to get to know women because they have such a poor understanding of them?

I don't think ANY men have a good understanding of women. ::

 

[aftermidnight]

A lot of what I am reading here seems to suggest that guys fall into one of two categories: either good (nice) or bad (abusive jerks). Really? There is no in between? You are either a saint or a devil?

No, no. There's definitely an in-between; it's just that the in-between people don't stand out in this discussion. Girls usually say they want a nice guy, but many seem to end up with d-bags, most end up with "in-betweens", and seemingly few end up with the truly nice guys (i.e. the saints).

As myself, yourself, and quite a few others have already stated: this whole "nice guys finish last" thing is probably just a fallacy or a misunderstanding, as nice guys probably are more likely to end up in long-term relationships, though they seem to be less likely to end up having one-night stands or being in flings. You have to remember, though, that guys have programmed in them a yearning to sow their seed far and wide, so guys typically see finishing "first" as having as much sex with as many women as possible.

I am gonna be blunt here: I like to have sex, so a guy who is willing and says so is more likely to get sex from me than a guy who is waiting for me to make the first move. I won't think he is a jerk because he made the first move either. I have had sex with "nice" guys, and the whole time I feel like I am taking advantage of them or something because they are so nice and I am just being a big whore making the first move. In my experience, it is the nice guys that tend to have that view of women btw.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[DeadmanWalking]

do so many socially anxious men have such a poor understanding of women because they are afraid to get to know them?

or are they afraid to get to know women because they have such a poor understanding of them?

This is just me, but both of those are correct, again at least for me. Women terrify me to be honest; I would rather go skydiving (which is pretty big considering I'm an acrophobiac) than to approach a girl. I wouldn't and don't know what to do or say; I'm told to be myself, but myself is distant from everyone, cold and sarcastic. No one wants that in a person. So, I'm deadlocked: I need to, in order to communicate and "understand" women, be myself, but myself doesn't allow for anyone to reach him. This is, of course, barring my inferiority complex and belief that I'm not worthy of love. The fault lies with me and I whole-heartedly take it.

 

[aftermidnight]

do so many socially anxious men have such a poor understanding of women because they are afraid to get to know them?

or are they afraid to get to know women because they have such a poor understanding of them?

For me, it has nothing to do with not understanding them. I don't even know what that means. I am a good listener and people confide in me a lot of stuff, some of which I would actually prefer not to know. I am highly confident that I would be able to understand my girlfriend, so long as she is not deathly afraid of telling me what is bothering her.

For me, it has everything to do with not being able to meet women. Let's face it: men are the ones who have to make the first move. That may not be true in all cases, but, in general, it is. Most guys get at least a bit nervous when they're talking to a girl they're interested in - how do you think it feels for a guy with social anxiety?

If you're a woman with social anxiety, you're the one who can just sit back and relax while the guy going after you makes an a$$ of himself; you're not the one who has to fear getting rejected. I don't want to imply that it's easy for women with social anxiety in these circumstances; just that it is easier than it is for guys with social anxiety.

 

[MikeyC]

For women being nice is a positive thing...the opposite of nice for a woman is being a whore. You are either a good girl or a slut. Is that right or wrong? Feel free to disagree with that statement.

I know a girl who called herself (herself) a slut because she's had sex with 8 guys. I asked her if there's some unwritten rule that you can only have sex with X guys before being called a slut.

I really, really, really hate this double standard when it's okay for guys but not okay for girls.

I am gonna be blunt here: I like to have sex, so a guy who is willing and says so is more likely to get sex from me than a guy who is waiting for me to make the first move. I won't think he is a jerk because he made the first move either. I have had sex with "nice" guys, and the whole time I feel like I am taking advantage of them or something because they are so nice and I am just being a big whore making the first move. In my experience, it is the nice guys that tend to have that view of women btw.

This is true, but it's still very hard to be the more assertive one.

 

[coyote]

...I am gonna be blunt here: I like to have sex, so a guy who is willing and says so is more likely to get sex from me than a guy who is waiting for me to make the first move. I won't think he is a jerk because he made the first move either. I have had sex with "nice" guys, and the whole time I feel like I am taking advantage of them or something because they are so nice and I am just being a big whore making the first move. In my experience, it is the nice guys that tend to have that view of women btw....

i'm glad that you brought this up, razzle dazzle rose

i didn't think it would have as much credence coming from a man

seems alot of guys think that it's "not nice" to ask a woman to have sex with them

that would only be true if they believed that women didn't desire sex as much as men do - or that they shouldn't

that belief in itself is "not nice" - it's sexist and disrespectful

either they think that women are somehow sexually inferior or subservient or incapable of feeling the same physical desire that a man can - how arrogant

or they think a woman is "bad" for having those desires - and that's just messed up on too many levels

so by being "nice" - they're actually NOT being so nice - they're being self-superior, sexist, and misogynist - albeit shy and unassertive

but there's good news

if you get what i'm saying here, and you can see that women are just as interested in doing the things that you want to do...

maybe the whole prospect of approaching them doesn't have to be so scary

think about it

(sorry for not being more polite - this whole debate has been posted so many times, that i've lost my patience with it)

 

[Ms Cloud]

If you're a woman with social anxiety, you're the one who can just sit back and relax while the guy going after you makes an a$$ of himself; you're not the one who has to fear getting rejected. I don't want to imply that it's easy for women with social anxiety in these circumstances; just that it is easier than it is for guys with social anxiety.

No, women get rejected plenty. They get rejected on the basis of their looks, mainly, and also for being "boring" (i.e. not demonstrating enough sexual assertiveness; being more cerebral than physical/emotional).

Rejection is worse for women, which is why they don't talk about it much. It happens all the time.

 

[coyote]

Well dude thats because so many girls that Ive talked to seem so damn reserved about sex. Ive yet to meet a girl that will admit to being horny. Or if she likes to masturbate. Most Ive talked to think porn is disgusting. Now if I talk to my guy friends about it, its all good and just us guys joking around. Maybe Im talking to the wrong girls but Ive always gotten the impression most were sensitive about it. Not because I thought it was wrong. Hell...I'd love to talk to women openly about sex. I'd like to HAVE non attached sex for FUN for Christs sake. Razzledazzle is the first one here I've heard admit something like that. But saying its sexist and disrespectful isnt very fair...

the trouble is that because of the whole "slut" stigma mentioned above, and because there are so many men who think that women are not supposed to like sex, they have been stifled from expressing themselves more openly

but i assure you - women are just as libidinous as men

 

[DeadmanWalking]

No, women get rejected plenty. They get rejected on the basis of their looks, mainly, and also for being "boring" (i.e. not demonstrating enough sexual assertiveness).

Rejection is worse for women, which is why they don't talk about it much. It happens all the time.

She does have a point. If go on Google or any other web search site, you will find as many "Do girls like shy guys?" as "Do guys like shy girls?". I think people are stuck in this "woe-is-me" mindset; other people do go through the exact, or worse, things we do. Maybe to dispel this belief, we, as people, should take the time to understand how things are from the opposite end. I don't understand completely, but women have a large burden placed on their backs to look a certain way and act a certain way, lest they become ostracized by other women and society.

 

[aftermidnight]

that belief in itself is "not nice" - it's sexist and disrespectful

The belief is only "not nice" until the question gets asked and then the question itself is not nice either.

A misconception or not, it is widely believed that men want sex in a relationship earlier than women do. So when a man wants sex, and a woman doesn't seem to want sex, the man is left to assume that she doesn't want sex.

What women have to understand is that only in very rare circumstances will the man they are dating turn down sex, and he almost certainly will not be offended if asked for sex. Actually, I'm pretty sure this is the common conception, no? On the man's behalf, the common conception, be it true or not, is that women will turn down sex a considerable amount of the time and probably would be offended simply by being asked for sex. Thus it is scary for a man to ask the question.

If you're a woman, want sex, want your man to ask for sex, and get pissed off because he doesn't: 1) he almost certainly wants sex, 2) likely the only reason he hasn't asked for sex is because he doesn't want to offend you or, worse yet, lose you. That he is not asking for sex should be considered a compliment, not an example of him being sexist and disrespectful. We can only work with what we know, and when we don't know something we have to go with the common conception: that women don't want sex. Help us to overcome this grave misconception.

 

[Ms Cloud]

We can only work with what we know, and when we don't know something we have to go with the common conception: that women don't want sex. Help us to overcome this grave misconception.

You're talking about casual sex. Some women like casual sex and some don't. The proportion of women who don't like casual sex far exceeds the proportion of men who don't like it.

I don't understand completely, but women have a large burden placed on their backs to look a certain way and act a certain way, lest they become ostracized by other women and society.

Well I'm glad there's at least one man out there who understands that now. Thanks DW.

 

[Aletheia]

I've yet to meet a girl that will admit to being horny.

I hate society sometimes.

With boyfriends, yes, I've talked about sex, and masturbation, and porn (not that those conversations have always been comfortable).

Here? No. It was difficult to even write that for fear you'll think, "whore". And it's anonymous!

 

[aftermidnight]

No, women get rejected plenty. They get rejected on the basis of their looks, mainly, and also for being "boring" (i.e. not demonstrating enough sexual assertiveness).

Rejection is worse for women, which is why they don't talk about it much. It happens all the time.

I might be wrong, but I think you're confusing rejection with lack of interest.

 

[Ms Cloud]

I might be wrong, but I think you're confusing rejection with lack of interest.

I see. So all the times I've been rejected by men, I shouldn't have felt bad because it was really just a "lack of interest" on their part.

The difference is too subtle to make me feel better about it.

 

[Aletheia]

Interestingly, inside relationships, it's always been very important to them that I'm keen (to the point where I've faked it when I was feeling down so as not to hurt his feelings).

It may be that men are more than okay with thinking that they turn me on, they just don't want to think that anyone else does.