Nice guys finish last...

[DeadmanWalking]

This topic has gone very personal, and it's not an easy topic to discuss/debate.

I think both sexes have it equally as hard as each other for slightly different reasons.

And that's the point I think coyote and the others are trying to get across! Let's just agree that men with SA or any form of shyness have it bad and women in the same situation have it just as bad.

 

[coyote]

Im tired of girls talking about it being hard yet they have bf and I dont have a damn thing.

did i tell you the story about the fox and the grapes?

 

[MikeyC]

Yeah, it is that whole "good girl vs. whore" complex I mentioned. It is a very real thing, and many men perpetuate that line of thinking. Not your fault or anything, but it is something women struggle with. When I have sex with a man I always wonder if he will think I am a whore 'cause I want to do this or that. Sometimes I take the risk and ask, sometimes I don't. I don't take that risk with nice guys!

And again, this is where the double standards in our society make me upset. Why do women have to think this way and men don't? It's very, very unfair. I sometimes think pornography is to blame.

 

[aftermidnight]

Fundamentally, a lot of the reason for debate here, if you want to call it that, is societal norms. As stupid and untrue as they may be, they are the default.

Societal norm/conception #1: men want to have sex earlier in a relationship than women do.
Societal norm/conception #2: women are more likely to be upset by an asking for sex than men.

Do you agree with these two points? Would you agree that in times of uncertainty and in times of potential offense, it is safest to default to societal norms?

 

[Aletheia]

I know I may make some women here mad.

That doesn't make me mad, for one. I doubt I'd have had much of a love life if I'd had to do the asking.

What does make me mad is this notion that a passive rejection is less hurtful than an active one.

(Side issue: the enforced passivity can be maddening.)

 

[DeadmanWalking]

And again, this is where the double standards in our society make me upset. Why do women have to think this way and men don't? It's very, very unfair. I sometimes think pornography is to blame.

I don't think it's that. Or at least all of the blame can't be placed on porn. I think it's because women have been set up to be this sweet, demure, and orderly gender. Sex has had a dirty and uncouth stigma placed upon it and anyone who performs or even thinks of it is dirty and uncouth. Maybe this came from the Christian beliefs on sex, I don't know. But, wherever it came from, it needs to be banished because sex is no dirtier than taking a shower or masturbating.

 

[coyote]

Fundamentally, a lot of the reason for debate here, if you want to call it that, is societal norms. As stupid and untrue as they may be, they are the default.

Societal norm/conception #1: men want to have sex earlier in a relationship than women do.
Societal norm/conception #2: women are more likely to be upset by an asking for sex than men.

Do you agree with these two points? Would you agree that in times of uncertainty and in times of potential offense, it is safest to default to societal norms?

no, that's just it - those are misconceptions that men have who don't know a thing about women

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

And again, this is where the double standards in our society make me upset. Why do women have to think this way and men don't? It's very, very unfair. I sometimes think pornography is to blame.

The world is not fair, Mikey

 

[aftermidnight]

no, that's just it - those are misconceptions that men have who don't know a thing about women

While that may be true, women haven't done a very good job of making it clear. Knowing that men hold this misconception, why aren't women more helpful, more suggestive?

 

[coyote]

While that may be true, women haven't made a very good job of making it clear. Knowing that men hold this misconception, why aren't women more helpful, more suggestive?

you must have missed a couple posts

it's because they've been told not to be - that's it's "wrong"

by a society led by men who harbor those same misconceptions

remember - women only just got the right to VOTE less than 100 years ago

they're still stoned to death in some countries for not concealing their flesh

now it's THEIR fault for not being more helpful?

 

[MikeyC]

I don't think it's that. Or at least all of the blame can't be placed on porn. I think it's because women have been set up to be this sweet, demure, and orderly gender. Sex has had a dirty and uncouth stigma placed upon it and anyone who performs or even thinks of it is dirty and uncouth. Maybe this came from the Christian beliefs on sex, I don't know. But, wherever it came from, it needs to be banished because sex is no dirtier than taking a shower or masturbating.

It's uncouth if a woman discusses it. I've heard a group of males discuss sex and such but I can't recall that coming from women. Or maybe it's been a case of "wrong place, wrong time" all the time? Ha.

The world is not fair, Mikey

Yeah, there's unfair, but there's unfair. Male has sex with lots of women = a stud. Woman has sex with lots of men = a slut.

I mentioned the story pages ago (may have gotten buried now) about the girl I know calling herself a slut for the amount of men she's slept with (it's not even that many). I had to talk her out of that way of thinking. Unfair indeed, and the girls usually come off second best.

 

[Aletheia]

Why do women have to think this way and men don't? It's very, very unfair. I sometimes think pornography is to blame.

Oh dude, it waaaaaay pre dates pornography.

Men have always tried to control female sexuality because of the uncertainty of paternity. They don't want to waste resources bringing up children that aren't theirs.

(And now I'm starting to sound like a professor of gender studies, so I'll shut up.)

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

I may be whining but Im sorry, Im pissed. Im tired of girls talking about it being hard yet they have bf and I dont have a damn thing.

I feel your frustration. I have a "too nice" boyfriend ::

 

[MikeyC]

I feel your frustration. I have a "too nice" boyfriend ::

Fine, I'll be more assertive from now on! >:]

 

[Aletheia]

Random aside: this is an insanely popular thread.

I guess it touches a nerve.

 

[MikeyC]

Oh dude, it waaaaaay pre dates pornography.

Men have always tried to control female sexuality because of the uncertainty of paternity. They don't want to waste resources bringing up children that aren't theirs.

(And now I'm starting to sound like a professor of gender studies, so I'll shut up.)

Very true, but pornography has commercialised it, for lack of a better term.

How many videos are of women dominating men? Now, how many the other way around?

Occupy Pornography. Women are the 99%! ::

 

[aftermidnight]

you must have missed a couple posts

it's because they've been told not to be - that's it's "wrong"

by a society led by men who harbor those same misconceptions

remember - women only just got the right to VOTE less than 100 years ago

they're still stoned to death in some countries for not concealing their flesh

Fair enough.

F***in misconceptions. It's TV that is to blame, really.

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

you must have missed a couple posts

it's because they've been told not to be - that's it's "wrong"

by a society led by men who harbor those same misconceptions

remember - women only just got the right to VOTE less than 100 years ago

they're still stoned to death in some countries for not concealing their flesh

now it's THEIR fault for not being more helpful?

Oh, thank you so much, Coyote for saying this. Right on!

 

[Aletheia]

In my early twenties I struggled a lot with the whole "madonna/whore" complex.

I was going to mention that very term.

I think I have come a long way from that. Thank god! I can't deal with more guilt.

I admire that. Ironically, I do generally consider myself sexually liberated. But when I'm with people I don't know, who might be from backgrounds different to my own, my fear of being judged kicks in hard.

(Note though that I did start rabbiting on about sex, once I'd got started. *blushes*)

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

Oh dude, it waaaaaay pre dates pornography.

Men have always tried to control female sexuality because of the uncertainty of paternity. They don't want to waste resources bringing up children that aren't theirs.

Yes, that's a major factor. And really, the whole idea of male lineage inheritance is pretty silly and intrinsically problematic. I mean, you always know who the mother is! ::