Nice guys finish last...

[aftermidnight]

You're talking about casual sex. Some women like casual sex and some don't. The proportion of women who don't like casual sex far exceeds the proportion of men who don't like it.

Actually, I was talking about sex in general. And, if anything, I was talking about "first sex", for lack of a better word: the first sex in a relationship.

 

[coyote]

Well you cant lump all of us into a group of sexist bastards because we dont know that. Ignorance doesnt imply malicious intent

i agree - i didn't say it was malicious

you have now tasted the forbidden fruit of knowledge

now go forth

and multiply

 

[Aletheia]

I might be wrong, but I think you're confusing rejection with lack of interest.

For women, these might be one and the same.

 

[Aletheia]

And, if anything, I was talking about "first sex", for lack of a better word: the first sex in a relationship..

Over here, it's common practice for the man (often on the third date) to invite the woman to his place where he'll cook her a meal.

It's understood by all concerned what this means: if she accepted the invitation, she's keen.

 

[aftermidnight]

I see. So all the times I've been rejected by men, I shouldn't have felt bad because it was really just a "lack of interest" on their part.

The difference is too subtle to make me feel better about it.

Didn't mean to offend. Rather, I just don't think I understand what you mean by rejection; the difference to me is not that subtle, at least not as far as this conversation goes.

A boring, not-good-looking socially anxious guy probably has as much of a chance of being in a relationship as a boring, not-good-looking socially anxious girl. We have to compare apples with apples here, not apples with oranges. Both suffer from a lack of interest from the other sex. An interesting, good-looking socially anxious girl is probably more likely to be in a relationship than an interesting, good-looking socially anxious guy. This is because non-socially anxious guys are probably going to be interested in her. On the other hand, given our societal norms, and true not all the time, the interesting, good-looking socially anxious guy is going to be expected to make the move, but he does not because he is a socially anxious guy and fears rejection.

It all comes down to who has to make the move, and nine times out of ten, it's the guy. I'm sorry, that's how it is. Trust me, I really wish it weren't.

 

[Silatuyok]

the trouble is that because of the whole "slut" stigma mentioned above, and because there are so many men who think that women are not supposed to like sex, they have been stifled from expressing themselves more openly

but i assure you - women are just as libidinous as men

I'll agree with this.

 

[aftermidnight]

Over here, it's common practice for the man (often on the third date) to invite the woman to his place where he'll cook her a meal.

It's understood by all concerned what this means: if she accepted the invitation, she's keen.

Interesting practice. Helpful, to say the least.

 

[Ms Cloud]

It all comes down to who has to make the move, and nine times out of ten, it's the guy. I'm sorry, that's how it is. Trust me, I really wish it weren't.

Whatever. You're minimizing the pain and suffering that women go through when men reject them. This discussion is making me anxious and panicky so I'm going to bow out.

 

[DeadmanWalking]

Interestingly, inside relationships, it's always been very important to them that I'm keen (to the point where I've faked it when I was feeling down so as not to hurt his feelings).

It may be that men are more than okay with thinking that they turn me on, they just don't want to think that anyone else does.

Well, I guess one can compare it to how (some) men and women feel about sex toys and porn respectively. They don't want to feel like they're being outdone by some inanimate, or in your case, very animate, object. To some men, they see a sex toy as something meant to replace them, that they're not doing a good enough job and, to women, porn is seen as something that their man enjoys more and may replace her. However, the exact opposite should be true in a healthy relationship: sex toys are meant to enhance and porn is meant to be an auxiliary, not an main source of pleasure. As I get back on topic, it's alright for men and women to be turned on or to appreciate the opposite sex; as long as you're the one they're coming back to, then everything's all good. I felt the same way about these things, but, after some research, I've learned to live with the fact that whatever woman I'll be placed with can and will get turned on by other males and other things. I guess I just have to keep the flame alive.

 

[coyote]

It all comes down to who has to make the move, and nine times out of ten, it's the guy. I'm sorry, that's how it is. Trust me, I really wish it weren't.

ok, but i think the point being argued is WHY the "nice guy" feels like he shouldn't make that move

why is it considered "not nice" to make the move, when that's what the "societal norm" is?

why is it considered "not nice" when the woman is expecting the man to do it?

following the societal norm and doing what the woman expects (and desires)... only jerks do that? only "bad boys"? nice guys don't do that?

i think that's misguided

 

[aftermidnight]

Whatever. You're minimizing the pain and suffering that women go through when men reject them. This discussion is making me anxious and panicky so I'm going to bow out.

If that's what I'm doing, then it's absolutely not what I'm trying for. I'm not at all saying that rejection is easier for women than it is for men. Not at all.

I don't know how we got to this point of misunderstanding, but my original point was that getting into a relationship is easier for girls with social anxiety than it is for guys with social anxiety, though neither has it easy. Everything I've said since then was just in defense of that point. Sorry if I have confused you or offended you.

 

[DeadmanWalking]

Well thats because the debate has gotten off topic. Being nice and being socially anxious have absolutely nothing in common. I just think guys with SA get pissed and sexually frustrated when they see guys without the problems constantly getting exactly what WE want. So we call them *******s because it feels good lmao

That has some truth in it. It's easier on the human soul to place fault on others' shoulders when we should be the ones to bear our own fault. That, and we have something to blame for our misfortune. Nice observation!

 

[coyote]

I have to agree. I know I may make some women here mad, but I think there are more guys here who have not once gotten in a relationship then women who haven't. I've not once had a girlfriend or so much as kissed a woman because of my social anxiety, and I dont think Im ugly or boring.

but the whole "women have it easier than men" argument minimizes how women feel and potentially blames them for the state of things

again we're getting into the realm of sexist thinking

intended or not

 

[aftermidnight]

ok, but i think the point being argued is WHY the "nice guy" feels like he shouldn't make that move

why is it considered "not nice" to make the move, when that's what the "societal norm" is?

why is it considered "not nice" when the woman is expecting the man to do it?

following the societal norm and doing what the woman expects (and desires)... only jerks do that? only "bad boys"? nice guys don't do that?

i think that's misguided

You are preaching to the converted. Like I said, I wish it weren't that way, but it is, and wishing doesn't make it so. I alone cannot change these societal norms.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Wait, "the move" I was referring to there was asking a girl out, not asking for sex. I think we're mixing two topics here.

 

[coyote]

Well thats because the debate has gotten off topic. Being nice and being socially anxious have absolutely nothing in common. I just think guys with SA get pissed and sexually frustrated when they see guys without the problems constantly getting exactly what WE want. So we call them *******s because it feels good lmao

you should have just said that 15 pages ago

and we could have avoided this whole dance

 

[MikeyC]

This topic has gone very personal, and it's not an easy topic to discuss/debate.

I think both sexes have it equally as hard as each other for slightly different reasons.

 

[coyote]

Wait, "the move" I was referring to there was asking a girl out, not asking for sex. I think we're mixing two topics here.

same general principle

 

[Aletheia]

They don't want to feel like they're being outdone by some inanimate object

People often get freaked out by the thought of their partner masturbating, fearing that it means that there is something wrong with the sex they share together. But to my mind, they're two separate things, and can be complementary.

sex toys are meant to enhance and porn is meant to be an auxiliary, not an main source of pleasure

Porn can be great to watch together if you find something you're both into. But yeah, a garnish, not the main dish.

it's alright for men and women to be turned on or to appreciate the opposite sex

(Or even the same sex.) But totally. Someone above mentioned being able to appreciate other people's beauty together.

And I really have no problem with my man flirting, so long as he brings all that sexual tension back home to me. ::

 

[coyote]

This topic has gone very personal, and it's not an easy topic to discuss/debate.

I think both sexes have it equally as hard as each other for slightly different reasons.

yes, it's not easy, but everyone seems to want to discuss it

it usually gets alot uglier than this

i would like to commend everyone for being civil and not making any personal attacks

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

If you're a woman with social anxiety, you're the one who can just sit back and relax while the guy going after you makes an a$$ of himself; you're not the one who has to fear getting rejected.

I am not passive. I don't sit back and take it. I do my share of the work, I am just not willing to do all the work. I have gotten rejected plenty.

Well dude thats because so many girls that Ive talked to seem so damn reserved about sex. Ive yet to meet a girl that will admit to being horny. Or if she likes to masturbate. Most Ive talked to think porn is disgusting. Now if I talk to my guy friends about it, its all good and just us guys joking around. Maybe Im talking to the wrong girls but Ive always gotten the impression most were sensitive about sex. Not because I thought it was wrong for them to like it. Hell...I'd love to talk to women openly about sex. I'd love to HAVE non attached sex for FUN for Christs sake. Razzledazzle is the first one here I've heard admit something like that. But saying its sexist and disrespectful isnt very fair...

the trouble is that because of the whole "slut" stigma mentioned above, and because there are so many men who think that women are not supposed to like sex, they have been stifled from expressing themselves more openly

but i assure you - women are just as libidinous as men

Yeah, it is that whole "good girl vs. whore" complex I mentioned. It is a very real thing, and many men perpetuate that line of thinking. Not your fault or anything, but it is something women struggle with. When I have sex with a man I always wonder if he will think I am a whore 'cause I want to do this or that. Sometimes I take the risk and ask, sometimes I don't. I don't take that risk with nice guys!

That he is not asking for sex should be considered a compliment, not an example of him being sexist and disrespectful.

A compliment? But I want sex! I don't need this "compliment". Only nice girls would see that as a compliment. I guess I am not a nice girl

I hate society sometimes.

With boyfriends, yes, I've talked about sex, and masturbation, and porn (not that those conversations have always been comfortable).

Here? No. It was difficult to even write that for fear you'll think, "whore". And it's anonymous!

I have written about it here because what do I have to lose, and I also want to express my opinions more readily as I have said before, but I completely understand where you are coming from. In my early twenties I struggled a lot with the whole "madonna/whore" complex. I think I have come a long way from that. Thank god! I can't deal with more guilt.

Well theres silent rejection and verbal rejection. Silent rejection is when you're a woman in a room full of guys and the talk to every other woman except you. Verbal of course is when you approach someone and they tell you no. Rejection is rejection, its just one is more open but Im sure they both can be equally depressing

I have experienced both forms. It doesn't get easier, but you have to do what you have to do to get what you want, right?

It all comes down to who has to make the move, and nine times out of ten, it's the guy. I'm sorry, that's how it is. Trust me, I really wish it weren't.

And those nine guys are not nice guys either, they are the jerks most are referring to here