Arohanui - Ake Ake KiaKaha's Journal

[KiaKaha]

Knowledge is not illusory though - it exists as a never ending cycle of thought....we get close, but continually divisive to our goal - that does not make it illusory.
The more you know the more you dont know - what I am saying is that personal philosophy in particular as to how one should deal and cope with the world - should be questioned always - because we as individuals have no idea what existence is like outside of ourselves.
I would rather have a burdening angst, in fact - I think it is something that is necessary to keep an open attitude as much as possible - one because it is a motivating power, and two because justifying ones own peace of mind with apparent insight does not necessarily make one correct about anything.

 

[Starry]

I agree completely Kia, knowledge isn't illusory, although, interpretation's may be... Your last sentence was perfect!

 

[coyote]

So... a man walks into a doctor's office, "Doc, ya gotta do something! I'm having these terrible headaches."

"What seems to be the trouble?" asks the doctor, "Can you describe the symptoms?"

"Sure," says the man, "It hurts whenever I do THIS."

And, with that, the man balls up his fist and punches himself in the side of his head.

The doctor leans back in his chair and raises his eyebrow. "Why did you do that?" he asks.

"What do you mean?" asks the man, "I've been doing that my whole life. My parents used to smack me around, and I guess I got used to it. So as I grew up, I just started hitting myself every few hours or so - ya know, for old times sake. I guess it's just part of who I am now."

"I see," the doctor strokes his beard. He writes a few notes, flips through a couple of the thick medical books on his desk, peers into the man's ear canal with one of those ear-canal-peering-into devices, and strokes his beard thoughtfully.

"I think I know what's causing your headaches," the doctor announces at last.

"That's great, Doc!" exclaims the man, "Is there some meds you can prescribe? Maybe some kinda therapy or something? I'll do anything!"

"Well," says the doctor, "You could stop punching yourself in the head."

The man's eyes widen, and he stands up. "What the hell kind of solution is that? Are you for real? What the hell kind of doctor are you, anyway? I want MEDICAL advice, not some kinda hair-brained new-agey, holistic, mumbo jumbo, 'wisdom.' I want a second opinion!"

"Well," says the doctor, "you're ugly, too"

 

[KiaKaha]

Coyote. I get it.

I am having a really bad day.

 

[coyote]

Coyote. I get it.

I am having a really bad day.

i'm sorry you're having a bad day - let me know if there's anything you want to talk about

i hope things go better for you tomorrow

 

[KiaKaha]

Just thought I would declare that the girl who last Saturday cuddled me, got close, held my hand and snuggled into me - wants to "just be friends" - gee couldnt see that one coming.

OK - so I got friend zoned again.

So I am asking as request to any women out there who may help.

When you date a guy - who you like - but not like enough to be more than a friend...

what is the reason for that?

Why would YOU friend zone a guy - seriously, I am merely asking to satiate curiosity...

I really would like to know.... it is always so tantalizingly out of reach.... flirtation, kissing, holding hands, cuddling - but no second date... always "friends"

Btw - I cant be friends with someone I am attracted too.

I am asking outright - I am throwing myself to the mercy of the interwebs community.

What does it mean when a guy gets put into the friend zone.....
and NOT the boyfriend zone.

Honesty is appreciated....for a change. There has to be a reason - there has to be an honest reason.

 

[hidwell]

I think it comes down to three key reasons

1) Do you have your own place
2) Can you make them feel good about themselves
3) Can you buy them fancy clothes

 

[Nathália]

I think it comes down to three key reasons

1) Do you have your own place
2) Can you make them feel good about themselves
3) Can you buy them fancy clothes

Check number 3 off of that list. -_-
I do think in certain cultures women want number one.
Or a place that you both can have privacy in.
Of course number two is important.

 

[coyote]

Honesty is appreciated....for a change. There has to be a reason - there has to be an honest reason.

i'm interested to hear some responses, too

i'm sorry for your disappointing experience, Kiakaha - that has to be very frustrating

i seem to have a similar problem - women falling for me too easily

before you roll your eyes - the reason it's a problem is that while i'd just as soon remain friends (perhaps with benefits) or something casual, they have more romantic visions - visions that i seem to have a hard time living up to

so there's some quality that men project that makes a woman think "relationship", and i seem to project that quality without intending to and without being "relationship material", whereas you're ready for a relationship and want to project that quality, but for seem reason don't

it would be interesting to know what that quality is - and how we project it

ladies help us!

 

[MollyBeGood]

i'm interested to hear some responses, too

i'm sorry for your disappointing experience, Kiakaha - that has to be very frustrating

i seem to have a similar problem - women falling for me too easily

before you roll your eyes - the reason it's a problem is that while i'd just as soon remain friends (perhaps with benefits) or something casual, they have more romantic visions - visions that i seem to have a hard time living up to

so there's some quality that men project that makes a woman think "relationship", and i seem to project that quality without intending to and without being "relationship material", whereas you're ready for a relationship and want to project that quality, but for seem reason don't

it would be interesting to know what that quality is - and how we project it

ladies help us!

Hmm (female here)...every woman is different but if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of it then IMO most women who want to have children, and start families want an assertive guy who can bring home the bacon. That's not saying all woman care about is your bank account but I think if you love a guy and want to have kids you want to know you're not going to live in poverty first and foremost-nobody wants that for themselves or their children.
Then it would be bonus if the man you love and want to reproduce with is also very intune to your feelings and thoughts and needs, basically can emotionally support you.
I think if someone immediately puts you in the friend zone then they have assumed you don't meet some of those basic criteria.
Also there has to be all the other elements like things in common and sexual attraction.

 

[Silatuyok]

I certainly can't speak for all women, but I can say for myself that, when I was single, I would have loved to have found a guy to cuddle with and hold hands with, but who didn't insist on being my boyfriend. In fact, I was often trying to rope guys into what I would call a "non-relationship." lol, it makes me laugh to think about how silly it was. At any rate, I personally crave physical affection, especially when I'm living alone and I want the part of the relationship that involves compliments and other warm fuzzy feel-good stuff. But I don't always know exactly what I want in a man, so if you don't strike me right off the bat as being the perfect guy for me, I'm going to hold you at arms length (or a bit closer) until I make that decision, or honestly, until I see something that looks more promising. Think of it as keeping options open (and a lot of women have a lot of options). It sounds really cruel, and maybe it is, but I think that's just the way some women operate.

I've never really "friend-zoned" a guy, simply because I don't typically keep friends and I'd rather dump a guy before I kept him hanging around like a beaten puppy. That would just annoy me.

Honestly, I think kissing and cuddling on a first date is just asking for trouble anyway. I don't take guys seriously if they make a move on a first date. Not at all. To me that's just a signal that you are willing to be used and probably aren't interested in anything serious anyway.

I didn't quite explain exactly what I wanted to, but I hope that helps at least.

 

[Silatuyok]

Re-reading you last post, I have to ask: are you looking exclusively for a long-lasting, meaningful relationship, or are you open to other options? Being friend-zoned isn't necessarily the worst thing that could happen. Maybe that is just her way of saying she wants to get to know you better. Or maybe she wants you to be in the friends-with-benefits zone. You never know if something more could develop if you just write her off because she says she wants to be your friend. It's likely that is her way of protecting you, since she doesn't seem to know yet whether or not she wants to be in a relationship with you. If that really was your first date with her then give her a break, we need time to make these kinds of important decisions.

 

[1BlackSheep]

Just thought I would declare that the girl who last Saturday cuddled me, got close, held my hand and snuggled into me - wants to "just be friends" - gee couldnt see that one coming.

I'd have to say that I would find this confusing too. I wouldn't do those things with a guy I wasn't interested in. You and I seem to be the "anomolies" though! ::

But,

You never know if something more could develop if you just write her off because she says she wants to be your friend.

I agree with this too! I once met a guy who at first I wasn't interested in as anything more than a friend, but over time that changed. It is much more difficult when you're the one who has the crush though. ::

Hang in there, little buckaroo!

 

[dragonoth]

I haven't been following this journal much but I wonder -
1) Do you know her really well?
2) Are you in love with her?
3) Can you see a future with her?
If you've answered yes to all 3 questions, there's nothing stopping you from convincing her that a relationship between the two of you can work. She could be afraid to take that next leap with you, I don't know, but if you feel that strongly for her you should fight for it. Have the confidence to pursue what you want without forcing it to happen.

 

[KiaKaha]

What is wrong with being "just friends" - because it is not what I want.
"lets just be friends" - sure, it sounds nice - it's safe, but really I see it as a bit of a cop out. What she is really saying to me is "You are nice - but you are not good enough (for whatever reason - yet to be deciphered - for anything more than that) I dont mind being friends - but when you get that excuse over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again - it gets a little annoying. I have not written her off - its the other way instead - these women write *me* off. I am not going to waste my time fawning over a girl I like who likes me enough to only "just be friends" AKA you are not good enough.

Hmm (female here)...every woman is different but if you want to get to the nuts and bolts of it then IMO most women who want to have children, and start families want an assertive guy who can bring home the bacon. That's not saying all woman care about is your bank account but I think if you love a guy and want to have kids you want to know you're not going to live in poverty first and foremost-nobody wants that for themselves or their children.
Then it would be bonus if the man you love and want to reproduce with is also very intune to your feelings and thoughts and needs, basically can emotionally support you.
I think if someone immediately puts you in the friend zone then they have assumed you don't meet some of those basic criteria.
Also there has to be all the other elements like things in common and sexual attraction.

I think this might be a strong element.
Which is interesting - because obviously there is an expectation a male has to be the bread winner. I totally understand it - although it is a little unfair. Which is why having an amiable personality (like myself) is simply not enough. I think there is a lot of instinctual primeval caveman stuff going on here - and this is part of it.

If that really was your first date with her then give her a break, we need time to make these kinds of important decisions.

I dont mind rejection. But what I dont understand is why there is so much obvious attraction in the beginning. I am sorry but I dont buy it when a girl kisses you, cuddles you, holds your hand and all of that and then says "lets just be friends" there is a reason for it - and nobody wants to tell me what it is.

I asked this question on a more unforgiving - rather blunt dating forum. Here are some of the responses I got.

It is probably because you are a minger

That means ugly.

its questions like that...that got you friend zoned

Not enough chemistry, no zing, just a feeling sometimes that shagging them would be like shagging your brother

lack of attraction and thats not just physical ...

Its very simple really. If you are Just Friends - that is all you will ever be.

If you are Friends First - she is happy to explore the possibility with you of becoming more than a Friend and seeing where that might take you both. Friends First before entering into a relationship of whatever you both choose.
She will make it very clear, very early which zone you are in.
However, and there is always an however:
You can slip from the F/F zone to no zone, if you mess things up.
A J/F will often be around for a long time but rarely is ever likely to enter the F/F zone.

I'll sum it up for you.

Many Women know pretty quickly when they don't want anything with a guy. They are instantly friend zoned. Women may be friendly with them, but they never intend for it to be any more - the guy is wasting his time hoping.

Now I know there are exceptions to this - so I'll say it now. It doesn't apply to all man/woman friendships.

imo once you're friend zoned you're never coming out of it. I didn't like a guy I dated like that for ages, well, I thought I didn't, but I must have subconsciously, as he was never shoved into the friend zone and I eventually dated him.

Being friends and friend zone are two different things. The friend zone is pretty much a coup de grace to a potential relationship.

Be friends, but avoid getting friend zoned. Be the man that a lot of woman want, not an emotional tampon - people will abuse it.

I haven't read all the responses so far - but for me, a guy becomes 'friend zoned' if I can't see a longterm romantic future with.

The reasons behind why I don't see a romantic future varies from lack of physical attraction/chemistry to incompatible personalities/desires/lifestyl es etc.

Heck, sometimes I have backed off from guys who I have a genuine and strong attraction and affection for, due to them not being compatible in one or more areas that I believe are crucial to a successful longterm relationship. But that's just me.

All of this is so incredibly disheartning to me.

I feel that women dont like the kind of guy that I am. I know you all get annoyed when you hear it - but it just seems to me that no one appreciates a guy that is considerate and cares about how someone is feeling. You almost have to be - a bit of a jerk.
It is all about status - and security - and looks.

Seriously - if you could just imagine for a moment how many times I have seen evidence for this you would understand.

Either that or people are just not being honest with me - I get annoyed a bit how I am perceived as a bit of a pushover because I am generally well mannered and considerate to people.

"lets just be friends" - surely you must understand how incredibly frustrating that is to hear when you have heard it so many times before.

Either I am unattractive, unsuccessful - or for *some* reason I am just not boyfriend material.

The people on that other forum think I am a big effeminate, pushover baby and should just harden up and become a MAN.

I still dont know what is the determining factor that makes one man a "friend" and another a "lover" - I know the answer maybe different depending on who answers it - but there must be some commonality - there HAS to be - this cannot be a coincidence... I just dont understand why no one will be straight with me - and it is frustrating that people think that I am making a big deal out of nothing.

You dont cuddle/kiss someone and say that you just want to be friends. That makes no sense.


Maybe its just me. Maybe - I just dont have anything to offer.

 

[Starry]

I'm actually stunned by the answers on that site... What in the name of Bob is wrong with people? And people wonder why I hate people! (Don't worry, I also care about people - I describe myself as a misanthropic-philanthropist...)

The girl in question, I can think of no decent reason why she would act like that and then say she wants only to be friends... I mean, no sensible, decent person would behave like that before they actually know... Surely? I suppose I expect too much of people and expect them to behave in a rational way...

Sometimes, there is just no attraction, obviously, but to act like that first and then state the fact... It makes no sense!

All I have left to say is that, there are a lot of shallow people in thew world, but they're not worth bothering with. It's very hard to find the truly decent people, but they DO exist, I can promise you that! Don't give up, no matter how disheartened you feel. And believe me, I do know how you feel! But keep fighting onward... Try not to become embittered, think only of being the best you can be. If other people don't appreciate that, then it shows their lack, not yours.

 

[shakethelight]

I think she had to be physically attracted to you because she cuddled with you, held your hand & kissed. Personally when someone turns me off & tries to get close to me-I shy away. Maybe she have some trust issues/scared of getting close/hurt & has nothing to do with you personally.

When I was 19, I met this guy through a friend. I thought he was nice & attractive but I had just got of out a relationship. We hung out a few times & all of that. He clearly wanted to be with me but I wasn't "ready" for a boyfriend. I'm sure he felt "friend-zoned" but, the more time I got to spend with him without any presure the more I started to like him. We ended up dating for a little over a year. I think the best kind of relationships start off as friends anyways.

I think you should give it some more time. Hang out a couple more times. You never know what could happen.

 

[KiaKaha]

Meh. I am still interested to know what are the factors that determine what makes someone a 'friend' and what makes someone more than that - and by the way I am pretty sure the word friend (in this context) is merely a euphemism for something less desirable. But we don't want to seem superficial now do we.

I will get the truth out of someone eventually. I swear it.

 

[kilojoule]

lol those answers! Honestly did you filter out the decent answers and zone in on the opinions that the scum the dating pool has to offer? These women obviously don't have it all down or you wouldn't find them on a dating forum.

I will agree that attraction is a big 'ol important piece. However mutual attraction is not something you can control. Attraction and looks are not paired. Being attractive to someone doesn't have anything to do with the world deeming you aesthetically pleasing.

I met a really good looking guy yd (moving out of apt upstairs) honestly model material, cosmo would give him a 10. I did not find him attractive in the least. There was no part of me that wanted his babies. None. Yet this guy was a greek god....I did not find him attractive. <shrugs> dunno why, no reason I know of, no zing. Not a bit of zing.

I feel that women dont like the kind of guy that I am.

I wonder how many of those women did you feel you had the zing with? How many did you see a future with? I think because you are caring and sensitive and aware of others you gave those relationships more time to see where they would go, to see what could happen. You are more patient and gave more time than they were prepared to give I think that had they not jumped in, you may have been the one to end it and they would be the ones feeling rejected now. . . I doubt you had the zing with all the girls you've dated and they just were the first to call it.

Ultimately I think that puts you in a better position than them. People can be so afraid of rejection that they don't give anything time to develop they just want to jump ship first so they won't be the one to get rejected. And I think that's what's been happening to you. You're kind considerate you wait and see where something might go, give them benefit of the doubt, see positives and focus on them ...and they wield the blade.

I dont mind rejection. But what I dont understand is why there is so much obvious attraction in the beginning. I am sorry but I dont buy it when a girl kisses you, cuddles you, holds your hand and all of that and then says "lets just be friends" there is a reason for it - and nobody wants to tell me what it is.

^ It makes no sense at all.

 

[hidwell]

lol those answers! Honestly did you filter out the decent answers and zone in on the opinions that the scum the dating pool has to offer?

If only we all could be as wise as you and give such great advice, talk about having tickets on yourself.