Unknown Sample

Odo

Banned
Canada will fare well because of your cooler climate, so a few degrees warmer over there will make it a more habitable country to live in. Australia, on the other hand, with our already warm climate, abundant desert, extreme weather patterns, and cities on the coastline, will be one of the worst affected countries in the world. Lucky us, huh? ::p:

Yes, I definitely wouldn't want to live in Australia in the 2060s. Maybe you could pull a Lex Luthor and start buying up worthless desert so that you can eventually own beach front property?

In Canada the soil will become more fertile further north, which means we'll have more agricultural land (growing food is going to be a problem in other parts of the world)and a generally kinder climate, though it will still be unbearably hot in cities in the summertime, and the east coast will get hammered by storms and probably Atlantic hurricanes as well.

I don't know how serious it's going to be, but if other countries are impossible to live in you can bet their wealthy are going to flock here, and land and housing prices will skyrocket. This will be great if you own land here, but terrible if you don't... and the income gap and current overvalued housing market is making that tough for a lot of people right now.

This might sound paranoid, but I think that if there's a land scarcity here, the rich will just bribe the government to raise land taxes to the point where no one can afford to live on their own land and then the corporations/government/wealthy will just steal it away and we'll continue deeper into the neo-feudal nightmare. I can definitely see it happening if we have a government as shitty as our current one at the time.

I knew Australia was number one on that list, which makes no flippin' sense because we're a sunny country...why aren't we harnessing solar power to the extent we can? It's so strange. I can see your reluctance there so I don't blame you for not wanting to work in the mines.

Solar is definitely the way to go and it pisses me off endlessly that our government has just spent $26 million in taxpayer money on a pro-oil sands propaganda campaign designed to manipulate the stupid and undermine legitimate science instead of putting that into improving the efficiency/cutting the costs of solar energy. It makes absolutely no sense. I get so impossibly angry when I think about it that it makes me sick. I hope our PM gets assassinated.
 

Odo

Banned
My ears have been ringing quite a lot for the past few days. I'm not sure if they were always like that or if I just didn't notice because I don't get so much quiet time. I think maybe the cold has something to do with it. I do sometimes listen to music at a volume I probably shouldn't, though. Maybe I'm just noticing it more because my headphones broke and I haven't been drowning it out.

I think I could actually handle it better if I knew that it was something I couldn't have controlled. Like if it were an accident or something. For some reason, it's a lot harder to take when I'm responsible.

My front teeth were damaged by acid and stress over a period of years and I didn't notice until it was too late... if I was married I wouldn't care, but now every time I look at them I think 'now no one is going to want you'. Or 'now you'll never look as good as you used to'. I've cut out a lot of acidic foods and drinks and tried to balance them out with bases before I brush my teeth, but the damage is done and I can't do anything about it. I can maybe get crowns or something... but it's not the same. That wouldn't be me. I guess they're not that noticeable, but if you really look you can see it. I always used to have such nice teeth.

I think if I were punched or in an accident or something I might not be so upset... I would be upset, but at least the burden of fault wouldn't be on me. But the fact that I could have just made a few small changes and everything would have been okay is torture. I don't know how I couldn't have noticed something like that.

I feel the same way about my vision, and my hearing. I will never have 'pure' vision or 'pure' hearing ever again. I'll never look up at the sky and see it the same way I did when I was younger. I'll never hear music the way I did when I was younger. The world I used to see and hear is gone. If this tinnitus is permanent, I will never be able to hear pure silence ever again... I will be followed by this noise for the rest of my life.

Sometimes I even feel the same way about my anxiety. If I had just made some better decisions, or gotten over things instead of letting them become huge obstacles, or stood up for myself more, or gone after what I wanted more often, or gone out more when I was younger, etc... then maybe I wouldn't be so anxious. I could have done it at any time in the past and it would have been easier. But I put it off and put it off and then it was too late and the damage had been done. I guess I've said this before, though.

That's maybe the most horrifying thing about growing older.. the fact that you don't have time to reverse all of those things that led you to all of the problems you have at the moment... and they're always going to get worse unless you do something. If it happened while doing something awesome, it would be worth it... but it all happened because I was blocking things out, or just didn't care enough about myself. You wouldn't think that trying to protect yourself from everything could kill you/scar you, but it does.
 

Odo

Banned
^Not that anyone is sorting through these walls of text, but it reminds me of Tolstoy's 'The Death of Ivan Ilyich'... he injures himself while hanging drapes, and ends up dying. He lives his life in pursuit of what he thinks is important, is relatively successful, and then dies because he thought he needed to hang some drapes in his living room.

I guess that accepting the banality of these things is part of realizing how the universe works. I've got ****ed up teeth because I thought lemonade and cherry tomatoes was a tasty snack. My eyes are ruined because I argued for days with some idiot on the Internet over something I can't even remember.

I wanted to hear Huey Lewis And The News through the traffic, so I get tinnitus. I'll never be able to fully appreciate the birds and the bees and the rain and the snow and the waves and the trickle of water over rocks in the creeks because of some fleeting nostalgia for 'Stuck with You'. It's not even such a good song.

I guess I've said this enough now, but it's seriously hard for me to wrap my head around just how insanely backwards the modern world is.
 

MikeyC

Well-known member
I think a lot of us live in hindsight. "If only I'd done this..." "If only I didn't do that...." The truth is that we all have regrets, and I can see that some of yours are affecting you now. I do believe a lot of it is just getting older, though - you're bound to get a reduction in hearing loss and vision as your organs age.

I have tinnitus and it doesn't bother me at the moment. Maybe when I'm older and forced to sleep with the TV on, it might be different, but for now I still pound them with loud music. Most people don't consider the future for these actions we undertake today, myself included.
 
My ears have been ringing quite a lot for the past few days. I'm not sure if they were always like that or if I just didn't notice because I don't get so much quiet time. I think maybe the cold has something to do with it. I do sometimes listen to music at a volume I probably shouldn't, though. Maybe I'm just noticing it more because my headphones broke and I haven't been drowning it out.

I think I could actually handle it better if I knew that it was something I couldn't have controlled. Like if it were an accident or something. For some reason, it's a lot harder to take when I'm responsible.

My front teeth were damaged by acid and stress over a period of years and I didn't notice until it was too late... if I was married I wouldn't care, but now every time I look at them I think 'now no one is going to want you'. Or 'now you'll never look as good as you used to'. I've cut out a lot of acidic foods and drinks and tried to balance them out with bases before I brush my teeth, but the damage is done and I can't do anything about it. I can maybe get crowns or something... but it's not the same. That wouldn't be me. I guess they're not that noticeable, but if you really look you can see it. I always used to have such nice teeth.

I think if I were punched or in an accident or something I might not be so upset... I would be upset, but at least the burden of fault wouldn't be on me. But the fact that I could have just made a few small changes and everything would have been okay is torture. I don't know how I couldn't have noticed something like that.

I feel the same way about my vision, and my hearing. I will never have 'pure' vision or 'pure' hearing ever again. I'll never look up at the sky and see it the same way I did when I was younger. I'll never hear music the way I did when I was younger. The world I used to see and hear is gone. If this tinnitus is permanent, I will never be able to hear pure silence ever again... I will be followed by this noise for the rest of my life.

Sometimes I even feel the same way about my anxiety. If I had just made some better decisions, or gotten over things instead of letting them become huge obstacles, or stood up for myself more, or gone after what I wanted more often, or gone out more when I was younger, etc... then maybe I wouldn't be so anxious. I could have done it at any time in the past and it would have been easier. But I put it off and put it off and then it was too late and the damage had been done. I guess I've said this before, though.

That's maybe the most horrifying thing about growing older.. the fact that you don't have time to reverse all of those things that led you to all of the problems you have at the moment... and they're always going to get worse unless you do something. If it happened while doing something awesome, it would be worth it... but it all happened because I was blocking things out, or just didn't care enough about myself. You wouldn't think that trying to protect yourself from everything could kill you/scar you, but it does.

This is a really good post. Really sad, and I don't mean to offend, but it's almost poetic. But damn. I'm really sorry. You're a good writer, though. Not that that probably means much to you in light of all of that. And I'm sure you already know you write well. The last paragraph was especially good, about the irony of trying to protect yourself when that very behavior actually ends up harming you. It's simple, but it's so true, and well put.
 

Odo

Banned
Thanks for the response, Mikey... I agree there's not much point in wallowing in regret. The real problem is probably too much thinking and not enough doing to take my mind off of these things. I do have a really odd obsession with my own imperfections, and sometimes I even get upset about these things to the point where I want to die and be reincarnated just so I can get rid of them.

Wow Opaline I didn't realize my whining about all the regrets I have is poetic! Thanks for saying so. A lot of these things probably seem a lot worse than they are, because I notice them but then I keep thinking about them and worrying about them. I'm not deformed or anything... but sometimes I feel that way.

Part of it was probably due to living in Korea and teaching middle school-- Koreans tend to obsess over the way both they and other people look, and middle school is that age where everyone is super awkward and super sensitive. I didn't have enough friends to balance it out so I think I probably ended up picking up a lot of bad habits from the kids.

It's really not so healthy to be isolated in a place like Korea... but they make it really easy. So many foreigners develop drinking problems there because alcohol is cheap and always available, and the expat community is full of people prolonging their college years-- sometimes way way past their expiry date. So if you get sick of that, you don't have too many options, socially. Hanging out with Koreans tends to involve even more drinking than hanging out with foreigners. I mean, these people really pound them back. It's a hard-smoking hard-drinking place.

The Koreans don't really expect you to fit in, but it is very much a group-oriented culture and you almost never see people on their own... they're almost always in groups or couples. A lot of restaurants almost exclusively focus on group dining... you cannot go into one on your own because it's impossible to order an individual-sized portion. So you're sitting on the floor at this really long table and they bring out all of these side dishes so if you're on your own you're sitting there with bowls and bowls of food all around you. I did it once when I went on a hike and it made me feel extremely alone.

They're also constantly comparing how the foreigners look and act and it drove me insane. I actually scored lower on my performance evaluation because some teachers that had transferred in compared me to the foreign teacher at their school, and they let me know I wasn't as good.

Sometimes you would be the favorite and you could do absolutely no wrong, and then someone younger or prettier or just generally more popular would come along and you would fall out of favor and they would start trying to get you to be more like the new guy and talk about how wonderful he is and what your problems are, etc. etc. If you got too old, they would just fire you and get someone in... and the fact that they were a novelty would make them appear better than you, until someone else came along, etc. etc. etc. We're all basically disposable.

I can still remember being at a campfire with this group of Koreans and some other foreigners and all of a sudden they started to vote on who among us was the best looking... I didn't win, sufficed to say. It's not that I wanted to, it's that I couldn't believe they actually did it in the first place. You learn to roll your eyes at it all but it still registers and wears you down if you're there for too long.

I think it's probably the most superficial country I have ever been to... there are a lot of places I haven't been, but it's hard to imagine a more perfectly awful combination of unapologetic consumerism, vanity, narcissism, nationalism, and racism.

They've taken western consumerism to this ridiculously superficial extreme, and seem to have convinced themselves that they've invented it all by themselves. But they always seem to miss the point... possibly intentionally. So it ends up being this sort of awkwardly cheesy nightmare of consumer culture, where everything is taken at face value and if there ever was a meaning, it didn't seem important enough to keep.

The westernized Japanese have their own obsession with disposable western pop culture junk that somehow manages to be cool and they do it so well you almost think it's parody... it's like a super intelligent robot compiling a pop culture's greatest hits album or something. They have all of the logos and all of the cool, but it's all strangely empty by virtue of it being too perfect... but you still know they've been paying attention and delving into corners of western cool that even some westerners don't go into.

But Korea is like the cheesy soap opera version of Japan. They take all of the shitty mainstream western culture and none of the good stuff, slap an Asian face on it, rewrite the songs in Korean, miss the point completely, and worship it simply because it's popular and everyone else likes it. Yes, this happens in the west, but not to the same extent... I mean, conformity in an individualistic society is bad, but conformity in a collectivist society is maddening. Beyond the infantilization of women, so much of what they produce is unashamedly romantic in a Hallmark card sort of way... boys listen to cheesy ballads with syrupy strings and sweeping chimes signaling the end of the chorus, and every single ballad involves a build-up to that all-important high note where the singer scrunches their face up into a ball of not-afraid-to-cry tenderness and then follows it up with a gentle vocal caress that usually ends with an 'aaaaaa'. It doesn't matter what song you sing as long as you can hit those two notes and look good while doing it.

The entire society is full of a deeply buried insecurity and private desperation. They have such limited, fascist standards of beauty that it's insanely easy to fall outside of them, so people are lining up to be surgically transformed into clones. Some people say they want to look western, but I don't think that's it... I think they want to look like some predefined state of perfect Koreanness... something they've claimed as their own and marketed so aggressively both through the media and through the surgery that it's impossible to resist.

On top of this, they actually think they have special emotions that non-Koreans don't have, and a lot of them believed that that this made them inherently superior. Some of them actually thought that they were more evolved than other races... evolution doesn't actually work that way, but they thought it did and they put themselves at the pinnacle of human progress.

Some of them think that the only reason Korea isn't the center of the world right now is because they've been persecuted and oppressed and everyone is jealous and out to get them. They have been persecuted and oppressed, but I'm not so sure I agree with the 'center of the world' thing... and having a few internationally popular bands definitely doesn't make them culturally superior.

I think I'll feel a lot better when I've torn the whole experience completely from my soul, and can look at it from a safe distance. I don't think it's a bad thing as long as I keep my distance and learn from it instead of letting it be a part of me. I know we're all people on this planet but I think that's the closest I'll ever come to living among aliens.
 
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MikeyC

Well-known member
I didn't know you viewed Korea so negatively, mate. I would never have picked that country to be so westernised, yet still have their Asian leanings and haphazardly mashing the two together.

Korea being the most "superficial" country is surprising, too, because I always tend to think of Asians as a hard-working people (even though I know their cities are huge metropolises). That award usually goes to the USA, but it shows how easy it is to bag out on America when similar things are happening all over the world (even Australia, or America Jr.).
 

Odo

Banned
I didn't know you viewed Korea so negatively, mate. I would never have picked that country to be so westernised, yet still have their Asian leanings and haphazardly mashing the two together.

Korea being the most "superficial" country is surprising, too, because I always tend to think of Asians as a hard-working people (even though I know their cities are huge metropolises). That award usually goes to the USA, but it shows how easy it is to bag out on America when similar things are happening all over the world (even Australia, or America Jr.).

I am pretty negative about it, to be honest... I didn't know if I would be or not but I guess I am. I used to be able to see the positives but it seemed the longer I stayed there the harder it was to see them.

Most of the Americans I have met have not been at all superficial... some of my favorite expats were Americans. I think with Americans which part of the country they're from is much more important than their being American.

And Americans have a diverse, rich, vibrant individualistic culture as well... Koreans are all about conformity and appearances. Sometimes I don't even think that they care who you are so long as you look good. I haven't met too many Americans who are that extreme.

They have a reputation for hard work because they work long hours (which usually ruins their homelives), but they have the absolute worst time management skills I've ever seen. They will literally spend their entire morning trying to figure out which color to use to highlight the title of a letter they're planning to write, then it's time for lunch, then it's time for tea, then it's time to tell the youngest person in the office to do your work as well as their own while you play solitaire, then it's snack time, etc. etc. etc.

One of the reasons they have a 'good' reputation abroad is because they keep to themselves and don't let anyone know what they're really about... so everyone assumes this is modesty or humility, but half of the time it's actually racism and not wanting to mix with a 'dirty' outside culture.

They almost never travel by themselves and organize tours in advance so they don't have to actually learn anything for themselves. On these tours they have all kinds of ridiculous lies handed to them by their tour operators-- you run into these lies when you live there and no matter how much you tell them it's not true, they will never ever believe you, because they can't trust you, because you're not Korean. Some of them are benign, but some of them just flat out piss you off.

I'm generalizing here and I think the younger people aren't so much like this.

I think I'd better stop... I might be coming off as racist or something, and I did meet people who were really nice. Not many, but they were there too.
 

Odo

Banned
I spent my whole day yesterday working on a song. I'm really good at getting sucked into non-moneymaking projects that I enjoy to the point of not even realizing how much time I've just spent doing it.

I wish I could put as much energy and time and creativity into something that was going to make me money... but everything that I would do for money/with money in mind is aggressively impossible to enjoy. If I were making these songs for money, I would probably hate doing it.

When I was teaching there was a concept of two kinds of motivation-- intrinsic, and extrinsic.

Extrinsic means you're doing something because you want a reward-- candy, stickers, money, fame etc., and intrinsic means you're doing something because doing it is a reward unto itself.

I also remember reading a study where they found that using extrinsic motivation actually demotivated students and caused them to view the tasks as a meaningless nuisance that they had to endure in order to get the reward, which is exactly how I feel about work. I think that's exactly how a lot of people feel about work, and I think it's why people end up in soul-crushing jobs where the point is to screw others and cause havoc... because there is no emphasis on the value of the work itself-- its value is determined by its reward, and the social effect of wealth. But I really don't think that that is fooling hedge fund managers into thinking they're doing something wonderful... unless they're really, really good at self-deception. They probably know they're *******s, and the way they deal with it is by seeing other people as suckers/lesser beings. Which in turn leads to them creating the tea party/protesting the taxation that they just evade through loopholes anyways... because they don't feel any responsibility towards people who are 'less' than they are. That's capitalism in a nutshell-- classism, segregation, dehumanization, exploitation and entitlement.

One thing about teaching in Korea is that it's a rare example of an employee's market... and while some public schools are slavedrivers anyways, at my last job I really lucked out and got a position where they mostly just ignored me and I was completely free to do anything I wanted to do. I had literally no guidance, no demands... I was just placed in an office and told to 'do what you do'. Nobody really cared about me because it didn't effect them if I was good or bad... I could just keep my head down and as long as I didn't completely **** things up, they would pay me.

In the beginning I thought 'wow, great... I can be super lazy and get paid!'... but then I realized that that was making me extremely depressed. I would come in and face a meaningless job and do meaningless, half-assed work in order to get my reward. And I tried really hard to just grit my teeth and bear it, but it just kept on making me miserable.

So at some point, I realized that you can be a lot happier in your job if you actually put effort into doing it right. So I started to learn more about how to be a teacher, and started making powerpoint games for the kids to play in class, and put more effort into my appearance, my mannerisms, and defined a code of behavior and applied it universally. I was always polite, but never tolerant of bad behavior. The rules became the thing... and they didn't just revolve around me, they were good rules and I tried to lead by example.

My salary didn't go up, but I felt so much better about going into work (living in Korea was a completely different story, of course). I came to enjoy putting effort into thinking up projects and even though I could have coasted through the same material year after year (some teachers use the same things for weeks and weeks on end), I actually pushed myself to keep coming up with new things all the time.

I didn't even think about my salary... most of it just sat in my bank account until I finally started investing it. I always had enough, so it stopped being an issue. I was still driven to achieve things in my profession, and I started to realize that once money is completely irrelevant, you get to a point where you're driven by other things-- better things. My co-workers had more respect for me, my students had more respect for me, and I had more respect for myself. It was a triple win. I was still painfully isolated, at odds with a conservative, conformist culture and lonely as hell, but I had some degree of self-respect and faith in my ability to turn things around. I felt like I was living in some sort of quasi-so******t utopia in microcosm. Interestingly enough, teachers are a rare example of workers who always seem to live within their means... they say it's because there's less hierarchy and the salaries aren't too radically different from person to person. They're competing with people within the same wage bracket as opposed to people way outside of their wage bracket. And everyone is relatively happy.

On the other hand, now that I'm unemployed, I'm really unmotivated and constantly worrying about money... which in turn just seems to demotivate me even more. If I didn't have to worry about housing, health care, food, etc... and if there was no stigma against the unemployed, and I didn't feel like a worthless piece of shit for living with my parents and not having a job... I would probably go from store to store and house to house, asking people if they needed my help with anything. I mean, what else would there be to do? But instead, I'm ashamed to show my face because I'm that unemployed guy who lives with his parents. I now have low self-efficacy, which is probably the biggest problem for other unemployed/poor people... and probably the biggest killer of productivity.

I think that's why I've come to think of myself as a social democrat... give the people what they need, remove all of the stigmas, and they'll eventually make a better world for everyone... where everyone feels good about themselves and we don't stand in each other's way.
 
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I've only worked in part-time minimum wage jobs because I'm a college student, so I can't speak from experience when I say this, but I agree. I agree based on what others have said and what I've seen from my limited perspective. The idea of worker drones trapped in cubicles is ubiquitous enough that most people understand the concept, even if they haven't been a white collar drone themselves. I agree, also, that even if you are working a "meaningless" job, if you make sure to do it well no matter how pointless it seems, poof - you've found meaning. At least for a time. Results may vary. But it's just like life, right? At least from an existentialist's point of view. You have to create meaning yourself.

Of course, it would help if we didn't have the problem of post-industrial desk jobs in in the first place, but since it's here right now, if you find yourself in one, might as well make the best of it. We can't all do satisfying nonprofit work and still be able to pay our bills.
 

Odo

Banned
Thanks for the reply, Opaline.

Yes, I think you can find meaning in anything... but sometimes your co-workers or higher-ups make it a lot harder to work to the best of your ability and it becomes more about pleasing people than doing good work. I haven't had a 'real' job either to be honest-- teaching overseas isn't like real teaching and in some cases it was more like a glorified fast food worker, but with language and a higher salary. I have had some really terrible ones where I was always in trouble or didn't understand what I was supposed to do, though. It's hard to create your own meaning when you're lost and afraid of someone coming down on you all the time. I got lucky with my last job because the higher-ups were more 'hands-off'-- I think because it was a public school and not a business, so it's not like I needed to worry about keeping customers because the students had to go to school. Also, everyone was super-busy and didn't want to deal with me, so as long as I wasn't a problem they were happy.
 
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Odo

Banned
I'm trying hard to figure out why I've been so cruddy lately.

The boring answer is that these psychological problems are connected to physical problems like diet, sleep, isolation, lack of exercise. But the fact that this is so often the case makes existence seem depressingly banal... though I suppose the more enlightened person would regard every aspect of themselves/others/the universe as holy, even the lowest bodily processes... and they are even holy unto themselves, not just as a foundation that you must constantly attend to just to keep the temple from collapsing.

But tempting as it is to obsess over these things, I figure that if I'm going to be a narcissist, the least I could do is try to be interesting, and the least interesting thing in the world is when someone endlessly obsesses over their personal dead ends. I don't have a relationship, I don't have friends, I don't have a job and I don't have enough money... and these things are important, but they're just so ****ing boring. I think what makes them boring is the fact that they're so common, and that the solution should be easy. It's literally something where the answer is 'just do this basic obvious thing that everyone else is perfectly capable of doing'. But I don't do it, and it continues, and there's not even very much to say about it anymore. All of the possible explanations have been noted, all of the comments have been made, all of the despair has been expressed... adding to that ocean of misery and making that part of who you are is a great way to assure your own mediocrity.

I remember watching some religious program in a motel on my way to this temple in the mountains in Gyeonggi-do and seeing a monk describe enlightenment as a movement. It was as simple as dropping your arm on the table. It was 'just that'. He was a white guy studying to be a monk in Korea, and every now and then you could see traces of frustration or annoyance in his face... the same kind that I probably have from living there. It was weird how it would just get dark like he was going to say something devastating to you. But then he didn't do it... and you're left wondering what it was. That was on the Buddha's birthday.

I actually saw the Buddha's birthplace in Nepal a few years ago. I stayed in a disgusting hostel and woke up with a tick on my stomach... I was horrified and ripped it off immediately, which I know you're not supposed to do. It was doubly worrying considering the extreme poverty. Later, I imagined that it had passed me a viral form of nirvana that had been circulating in the area since the time of Siddhartha... but I think that was probably a stretch. Still, given that the answer is simple and there aren't any rules, it's altogether possible that a tickbite could cause nirvana. I don't think there are any rules to that... I would even say you could probably achieve enlightenment through drugs. The universe doesn't seem a likely candidate for following the fickle rules of humanity.

But I'm pretty sure that all traces of the Buddha were gone from the area, because even though there were some pretty amazing temples from all over the world, it didn't exactly have a utopian vibe or anything. But maybe I'm too used to expensive western architecture, and that has influenced my expectations to the point where I just couldn't align myself with the ordinariness of the place. But I suppose that letting myself be sort of in the middle about it all is more honest than convincing myself I felt something that I didn't, just because I was supposed to or wanted to.

I know there were people there who had travelled a long time with little money to get there, and for whom this was the highlight of their lives. They probably got a lot more out of it than I did... because it actually meant something to them. I just flew there in a plane, stayed in a crap hostel, visited the temples, and left. Nothing special about that.

Zen Buddhists are constantly constructing and destroying their idols, because they don't want to fall into the trap of worshipping an idol instead of what the idol represents. Or maybe they just have the same earthly craving for novelty that we all have. Some of them probably do, but it's more likely a case of an effect with multiple causes... not even just the causes that can be rationally explained in hindsight, but things that aren't consciously controlled and are dismissed by the economy of the mind, but still motivate us.

If there are multiple reactions and multiple causes to everything, then there is limitless variation occurring at all times. But even if you don't actually know what's causing anything, it still all boils down to the cliche of clarity through perspective... you create a representation of reality, you use that to guide you, and then it is destroyed or altered as new perspectives are synthesized by drawing new connections between things... completely unrelated common elements can seem new through juxtaposition and be appreciated and connected to and revered and understood again. It's all sort of like a WG Sebald book.

I wonder where I put my copy of The Rings Of Saturn.
 
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But tempting as it is to obsess over these things, I figure that if I'm going to be a narcissist, the least I could do is try to be interesting, and the least interesting thing in the world is when someone endlessly obsesses over their personal dead ends. I don't have a relationship, I don't have friends, I don't have a job and I don't have enough money... and these things are important, but they're just so ****ing boring. I think what makes them boring is the fact that they're so common, and that the solution should be easy. It's literally something where the answer is 'just do this basic obvious thing that everyone else is perfectly capable of doing'. But I don't do it, and it continues, and there's not even very much to say about it anymore. All of the possible explanations have been noted, all of the comments have been made, all of the despair has been expressed... adding to that ocean of misery and making that part of who you are is a great way to assure your own mediocrity.

I apologize that I don't have anything helpful to say, but I do feel the need to point out that that particular passage sounds so familiar to me because I think that exact same way. I've had that same thought, that same talk with myself. Especially the very last sentence, about all of the possible explanations and despair, etc.

Yep.
 

Odo

Banned
Thanks again for responding, Opaline.

I have to say when I first came to this forum I wasn't sure if I was just annoying people or what... but hearing your responses makes me feel a little more included. It's also good to hear that some people can relate.

I've been thinking about traveling again lately... maybe because I'm feeling a desperation and sense of not really knowing what I'm doing, like I'm wasting my time or kidding myself or there's something I'm missing... or maybe it's because I feel like I've hit the point where I've run out of excuses and need to get out there into that big, terrifying reality that I've been living away from for so long... and dreading.

But when I was traveling the last few times, it was really hard. I would get into these moods where I couldn't find any joy in what I was seeing or doing because I just felt so awful and isolated. Even when people were being nice, I would want them to go away because I didn't want them to see how lonely I was.

And then I started to feel sick that I had just lost my ability to appreciate the one thing in my life I thought was worth living for. I kept trying to find happiness in things I thought I should appreciate and marvel at, but I couldn't do it.

I could stare at temples or swim on beaches or go diving or climb mountains, but without good people along for the ride it just fell flat. Even though these things have stood for thousands/millions of years, are truly remarkable in their beauty, and will survive far longer then anyone on this planet right now... I would much rather have a true, loyal friend than anything else in the world. Even though travelers are just passing through each other and they know it... whatever you do is only good if you're with the right people/person.

I guess my confession is that I actually really like people... as much as I want to live without them, or feel more connected to objects or sensations, I don't think I can. There are a lot of true human gems out there... and I would be happy with just one of them.

I don't think you can always force those fortuitous moments when you realize you're really clicking, and I guess you can't always hold onto them or expect them to happen all the time... but even the dull moments alongside someone awesome stand out in retrospect. Maybe that's the most important lesson of loneliness... it shows you that you need to appreciate people as much as you can, and do whatever you can to hold on when you find a good one.

I wish that I could be awesome enough for someone to feel the same way about me as I do about the people I consider to be great.
 
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MikeyC

Well-known member
I could stare at temples or swim on beaches or go diving or climb mountains, but without good people along for the ride it just fell flat. Even though these things have stood for thousands/millions of years, are truly remarkable in their beauty, and will survive far longer then anyone on this planet right now... I would much rather have a true, loyal friend than anything else in the world. Even though travelers are just passing through each other and they know it... whatever you do is only good if you're with the right people/person.

I guess my confession is that I actually really like people... as much as I want to live without them, or feel more connected to objects or sensations, I don't think I can. There are a lot of true human gems out there... and I would be happy with just one of them.
At the end of the day, no matter how introverted and/or misanthropic we are, we are a social species and we want to be loved by others.

Sharing those experiences you mentioned with another person you like at your side, whether it's a girlfriend or just a buddy, does enhance the experience. It can give you both something to talk about, something cool to share together, and travelling together can improve the friendship and give you more confidence. However, I have done some of those things alone (bushwalking, scenery stuff, staying at hotels, etc.), and I've always had fun doing my own thing. I hope that you can find that, too, because there's still lots to be gained from stepping out of your own comfort level on your own.
 

Nanita

Well-known member
But when I was traveling the last few times, it was really hard. I would get into these moods where I couldn't find any joy in what I was seeing or doing because I just felt so awful and isolated. Even when people were being nice, I would want them to go away because I didn't want them to see how lonely I was.

I could stare at temples or swim on beaches or go diving or climb mountains, but without good people along for the ride it just fell flat. Even though these things have stood for thousands/millions of years, are truly remarkable in their beauty, and will survive far longer then anyone on this planet right now... I would much rather have a true, loyal friend than anything else in the world. Even though travelers are just passing through each other and they know it... whatever you do is only good if you're with the right people/person.


I have had some great travel experiences alone. But everything in moderation, right. It should rather be a mix of alone time and social time. The painful things is when we're forced to experience things alone, because there is no one to share with. Once I went far, far away all by myself and I was prepared for 3-4 months of travelling alone. To my surprise, along the way I met a couple that I travelled with for 2 weeks, and I have to admit, those 2 weeks were wonderful and probably the best of it all.

Like what that guy from Into The Wild wrote as he had left the civilization behind; Happiness is only real when shared.
That insight really hit home for me, in a both beautiful and painful way.

I wish that I could be awesome enough for someone to feel the same way about me as I do about the people I consider to be great.


You are.



.
 

Odo

Banned
I have had some great travel experiences alone. But everything in moderation, right. It should rather be a mix of alone time and social time. The painful things is when we're forced to experience things alone, because there is no one to share with. Once I went far, far away all by myself and I was prepared for 3-4 months of travelling alone. To my surprise, along the way I met a couple that I travelled with for 2 weeks, and I have to admit, those 2 weeks were wonderful and probably the best of it all.

Like what that guy from Into The Wild wrote as he had left the civilization behind; Happiness is only real when shared.
That insight really hit home for me, in a both beautiful and painful way.

You are.

This is exactly it!

I don't need to be constantly accompanied by someone at every moment of every single trip, it's more like when you're waking up alone, eating alone, going out alone, doing your thing alone, riding in taxis alone, being that lone traveler sitting quietly on the bus, seeing other people with their friends alone, and coming back to a lonely room in a hotel, it kind of gets to you.

I love Into The Wild and I agree with that quote... you can have all kinds of satisfying experiences on your own, but whenever it happens I always end up daydreaming about bringing other people there or telling someone about it.

And thanks, Nanita... you're awesome too. :)

In response to Mikey's comment-- you can probably have a pretty good time with your hand as well, but there's no way you could ever compare that to sharing the experience with another person.

Most people don't fall in love with their hand, or smile at their hand, or get any reassurance from their hand that their hand is really into it, or that what's happening is really amazing. You're not thinking of your hand while you're doing the real thing, but if you're using your hand you're almost definitely thinking of the real thing... that's how I feel about traveling-- possibly life.

People look to each other to reinforce, deepen and understand the character of an experience... that's why it's so amazing when you meet someone likeminded--it completely validates your entire existence. The world becomes smaller, everything becomes clearer and you feel like you fit. I would say that even ascetic wanderers are hoping to meet a spirit or a teacher who understands them, is understood by them and will give them their answers... they don't go out to find solitude or experience things alone, they want to find God... they're yearning for the deepest love, the greatest intelligence, the most profound connection. Maybe you could get that from plants or from animals, but I don't think it's quite the same thing as finding it in another person... mostly because you're a person. Unless you're really unthinkably self-destructive, I don't think anyone wants to be totally alone-- that's like being nothing.

But even people who are frustrated with others can never truly disappear into pure solitude... they would be more likely to fill their heads with characters or fantasies or things that approximate what they think they don't want on their own terms. This is a lot easier nowadays... but I suppose it's possible that it was always easy, and that it has just become a more passive process... you can just slip into a coma and fill your brain with entertainment. You don't even need to have a good imagination. The amount of time people spend thinking and writing about entertainment these days is insane.

This is yet another reason why I feel like I need a general detox... there's too much entertainment in my life and not enough reality. I need the entertainment to protect myself from the emptiness of my solitary reality... so it's like a drug where at a certain point you're not doing it because it makes you feel good, you do it because you don't want to face what your life has become. Magazines, 3-5 minute pieces of popular music, advertising billboards, news, politics, brand personalities, tablets, phones, internet characters, people too influenced by what they see on TV, people too influenced by the wrong people, influences so pervasive that that's all that anyone really understands... always bringing us out of the moment and putting us in this desperate, paranoid version of the future because society holds itself together through distractions and fear and demands and complexities that mangle and deform and break you down and rebuild you. I'm losing my soul because I'm worried about losing my body. I'm doing something I don't want to do in order to get what I need, instead of directly getting what I need. I would feel more connected to reality if I could ignore the want and focus on more directly connecting to my needs, but for some reason most people are convinced that it's easier not to do that-- in some ways it definitely is, but at this point it doesn't matter if it's easier or harder or better or worse, because it's almost impossible to pry each other out of it.

But I think Nanita is right with 'everything in moderation'... but it's probably difficult to achieve that kind of balance.
 
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Silatuyok

Well-known member
This is yet another reason why I feel like I need a general detox... there's too much entertainment in my life and not enough reality. I need the entertainment to protect myself from the emptiness of my solitary reality... so it's like a drug where at a certain point you're not doing it because it makes you feel good, you do it because you don't want to face what your life has become. Magazines, 3-5 minute pieces of popular music, advertising billboards, news, politics, brand personalities, tablets, phones, internet characters, people too influenced by what they see on TV, people too influenced by the wrong people, influences so pervasive that that's all that anyone really understands... always bringing us out of the moment and putting us in this desperate, paranoid version of the future because society holds itself together through distractions and fear and demands and complexities that mangle and deform and break you down and rebuild you. I'm losing my soul because I'm worried about losing my body. I'm doing something I don't want to do in order to get what I need, instead of directly getting what I need. I would feel more connected to reality if I could ignore the want and focus on more directly connecting to my needs, but for some reason most people are convinced that it's easier not to do that-- in some ways it definitely is, but at this point it doesn't matter if it's easier or harder or better or worse, because it's almost impossible to pry each other out of it.

I've worked toward detoxing my life to an extent that I am comfortable with. I stopped watching tv, and now only watch certain shows I'm particularly interested in on Netflix. I stopped listening to the radio. I listen to NPR, but sometimes I need to take a break from that too. If I want to listen to something in particular, I find it online or I pop in a good old-fashioned cd or vinyl, or I explore live music. I avoid magazines; I think they are pretty awful. If it's not half filled with advertisements, then it is feeding you articles and photos that do nothing but convince you that your life isn't good enough. I have a phone that makes calls and does texting, but isn't good for anything else except telling me the time. I stopped reading most blogs, unless I know the person and am directly interested in what they have to say. I try to get my news from newspapers or NPR, and avoid online news because I tend to get sucked into the banal and depressing comments. I have even started avoiding grocery stores, not because I am afraid of anything there, but because the commercial influences run rampant there, and it disgusts me. I do not like being manipulated in any way, and just noticing where things are placed and how the lighting affects the purchases and (usually bad) choices that people make...I'd just rather avoid subjecting myself to that.

I can't get away from it all, of course, and I have no intention of doing so. But I have found that I feel MUCH more satisfied with my own life now that I have greatly reduced the number of external influences from businesses who want my money and my discontent.
 

MikeyC

Well-known member
In response to Mikey's comment-- you can probably have a pretty good time with your hand as well, but there's no way you could ever compare that to sharing the experience with another person.

Most people don't fall in love with their hand, or smile at their hand, or get any reassurance from their hand that their hand is really into it, or that what's happening is really amazing. You're not thinking of your hand while you're doing the real thing, but if you're using your hand you're almost definitely thinking of the real thing... that's how I feel about traveling-- possibly life.
Interesting analogy. :bigsmile: But I see what you're saying. While it's sometimes good to do things alone, there are times where you want to share the experience with someone else. There have been times where I have sat alone somewhere and wished that I could have a significant other to chat to instead of playing Words With Friends to pass the time.

For now, maybe think of places where you'd like to go on your own - somewhere that won't be improved with company, and strive for that. :)

I pop in a good old-fashioned cd
As someone who owns over 1,300 CD's, I support this! :applause:
 
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