Nice guys finish last...

[coyote]

it's possible to be a good man

without being a "nice guy"

 

[man on the hill]

I just try to be a good person. Whether or not someone likes me is entirely up to them.

This is how I am pretty much. I always try to help somebody out when I see they need it. At my work I do this alot more than other people and it has sort of given me the reputation of "one of the hardest working MF'ers in the plant" kind of because im always staying busy doing my job and also going out of my way to help somebody else get something done while the majority of other people either stand around and watch or just walk on by.

I dont usually let people walk all over me, if I disagree with something strong enough I sure as hell let people know. I guess my problem might be that im too "easy going". Personally, I like to keep thing as simple as possible, and most of the time I just agree with what other people say and do just to keep it simple and keep the ball a rollin'.

my older brother told me this once, "sometimes, you just gotta be an A$$hole" at first I didnt know exactly what he meant, but when I thought more about it, it started making more sence to me.

 

[gustavofring]

Honestly, I never really liked confident guys. I've always hung around more with the nerdy crowd, because they don't take themselves so seriously and have my sense of humor (though it depends per person). Confidence and arrogance often go hand in hand, and girls and other guys circle around these guys like bees to honey.

I always got a douchy vibe of guys who try so hard to be the ideal son in law, popular guys with their act straightened out so well. I have an irrational hatred for them, and vice versa. I feel like a scheming supervillain sometimes, waiting to drop a piano on the arrogant hero character in his darkest fantasies. They may act nice, but I find they're often really shallow, behind your back gossipy, and nasty.

I myself am told I am a goodlooking guy, and sometimes I notice people expect me to be a lot more confident and outgoing then I am. This always leads to awkward situations where people can't really figure me out. I do try to always be polite and nice to people, but since it's not a cool thing to be nice (it's not edgy) people get weird vibes or something and act douchy in return.

 

[Satine]

Forgive me if I'm covering old ground, because I haven't read this whole thread. But the problem is that what 'nice' means is different depending on the individual. Consider also that a person might call themselves 'nice' when that's nothing but self-flattery.

Not that a person who is genuinely nice (whatever that means in any given context) is unable to recognise the quality in themselves, but humans do have a tendency to flatter themselves to maintain a positive self-image when the truth is somewhat darker.

There is one potential problem with a 'nice' guy, which might help illustrate a problem. Firstly, I'll give my own definition if 'nice': more willing to give of time, money and/or resources than the average man.

A person who gives you or me something is doing so in the hope of getting something back. This is simple economics. Whether they're hoping for something material, or whether they're trying to buy friendship or positive regard or the greater likelihood of being offered a favour at some point in the future, the person who gives something is looking for something in return.

This dynamic can be used by an individual to manipulate the receiver into feeling they must give something in return, even if they wouldn't have intended to. For example, a man who offers to buy a girl a drink in a bar is not doing so purely to make sure she has a better night/wakes up tomorrow morning with a bit more money in her purse, but because he wants her favour.

When a 'nice' person appears on the scene and starts giving (because that's his nature), the immediate instinctive response from others is, 'surely he's trying to get something in return?' I think this is where the problem is.

Because this 'nice' individual is disproportionately so, he gives more than the average person would give. Therefore the people he gives to get either a conscious or an unconscious feeling that he expects something quite substantial in return. Therefore they may feel on their guard.

It's worth watching oneself for signs of using generosity as a means of securing favours from others that they might not have otherwise been prepared to give. I've caught myself doing it and it's a tricky habit to break.

 

[Silatuyok]

One part of me is baffled by female behaviour... I fear I may generalize by this statement. Perhaps my own confirmation bias is clouding my judgement... but I have noticed that some females tend to go after guys who are emotionally distant and abusive. This leads me to believe that the men who are like that have that alpha male disposition that women seem to like....there is often a fine line between confidence and arrogance...its hard to discern.

Yes, that is a generalization. I don't know any women who prefer a man who is emotionally distant.

 

[Silatuyok]

I think the clarification that this statement needs is not "what is a nice guy?" but rather "What is finishing last?" Do you mean they don't get high-paying jobs? Don't get loving families? End up in jail or starving or depressed and suicidal?
It's allllll subjective, folks. If someone is telling you that you're "too nice," they probably just feel self-conscious about their own flaws and want you to stop making them feel bad about themselves.

 

[aftermidnight]

A lot of women state that "kindness" is high on their list of character traits they consider when looking for a guy - makes sense. Kindness takes many forms, though. Even a real d-bag can be kind to his girlfriend while being an a-hole to nearly everyone else. I have a friend who constantly ends up with guys who end up treating her poorly, even though she thinks they're genuinely nice guys. She has a real problem falling for wolves in sheep's clothing. Natural d-bags tend to be more interesting people, and they probably also work hard to act nice in the presence of their girlfriends, but when emotions run high it is hard to maintain such appearances.

My guess is that d-bags/not-nice guys have a greater number of relationships, but they don't form the lasting long-term relationships that nice guys do. If finishing last means "having few relationships/sexual encounters," then I'm sure nice guys DO finish last; if it means "having few stable, long-term relationships," then I bet d-bags finish last. In general.

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

I fear I may generalize by this statement. Perhaps my own confirmation bias is clouding my judgement... but I have noticed that some females tend to go after guys who are emotionally distant and abusive.

Yeah, that is a huge generalization. No one likes abuse. Domestic abuse is no joke. No, we are not asking for it when it happens either.

In my experience it is the "confident, cocky" type guys that have pursued me the most aggressively. Meaning, they put themselves out there, risking rejection, and even when getting rejections, they don't give up. They make themselves available. I have had to do the chasing when I've dated "nice" guys.

I think the clarification that this statement needs is not "what is a nice guy?" but rather "What is finishing last?" Do you mean they don't get high-paying jobs? Don't get loving families? End up in jail or starving or depressed and suicidal?

I guess it means they end up socially anxious? A lot here do mention they don't have girlfriends and feel bad about that. So what is the equivalent of "nice guys finish last" for women?

For one, not all of us are really that nice. Deep down at our core, we're not much different from other dudes.

You are correct. The guy who really broke my heart was not the jerky abusive guy I dated. No, it was the supposed nice guy. He cheated on me with three women! I rather go out with someone who is a jerk but is upfront about it, at least I know what I am up against.

Unless you're within a certain group (which I won't name on grounds of not wanting to get banned:, people typically don't like being hurt or abused. It's not being nice that kills you, it's not having a backbone or your own opinion that does it. No one wants someone who won't stand up for what they believe in or always puts their opinion to the wayside. You don't have to be walking down the streets wearing your shades, tripping people up, all with a "gangsta lean," but neither should you be breaking your back just to please someone. A balance is best.

You said it all.

 

[Aletheia]

Okay, there's this: I've known some very successful men, and they were all total sweethearts.

Still, kind != spineless.

it's possible to be a good man without being a "nice guy"

I see them as one and the same. Ethical. Genuine. Altruistic.

But "nice guy" can be a mask that hides a lot of self-centeredness. Finishing last does not automatically make you nice. In fact it can leave you bitter, sometimes to the point of misogyny.

It's not a cool thing to be nice (it's not edgy).

At high school, perhaps not. People do try to be "hipper than thou", I suspect largely out of insecurity. In fact I suggested on another thread that it can sometimes be helpful to pretend you're so cool you don't care.

Only that doesn't fly so well as you get older. No one wants to spend time long term with someone who doesn't treat them well.

Yes, that is a generalization. I don't know any women who prefer a man who is emotionally distant or abusive

Actually, there are women who are drawn into abusive relationships, often because they grew up in that sort of situation; it's what they're used to. Doesn't mean they like it.

For one, not all of us are really that nice.

This.

 

[-lonestar-]

a man can be nice but not too nice, I used to think being nice would get me further in life but now I see it as misleading. People tend to think they can walk all over you, that you ain't got a backbone. Women will be turned off thinking you resemble a female. This is what my experience has been. It's good to not be an a hole, but practice giving your personality an edge.

 

[kilojoule]

Ah nice guys....I know nice guys...

I went out with a nice guy for 3 years.

At least with an *******, you know what to expect , ******* behaviour right.? But with a nice guy, you let your guard down, you trust them and BAM they have the potential to hurt you so much more than the bad boy does.

so no more mr.nice for me.

 

[KiaKaha]

A couple of things that I am curious about...
Firstly...what does nice really mean? What is the actual question really asking...? Is nice considerate? Caring? Sensitive? I think the answer to this question really depends on how one defines 'nice'.

And another thought I had was, in my first post I mentioned that some females tend to go for emotionally distant or abusive guys. Now, I didnt mean any offense by this, so I apologize. it didnt come out the way that I had intentioned...it wasnt exactly a generalization, more of an observation. I certainly DO NOT tolerate or condone any form of abuse. I would like to know however (perhaps this deserves a thread of its own) why SOME women continually go back to abusive relationships.

I have seen the same thing many times... My neighbour has beaten his wife... I hear them, and I see her... yet she keeps going back...its frustrating to watch and I cant understand why she would put up with it, when there are plenty of decent guys out there who would treat her with respect.

I sometimes think there is a cultural issue in regards to this topic.. I think men and women think and find different things attractive in each other depending on their environment and the background.

 

[MrJones]

I think that "nice" is just a label, which means something different for everyone and even at different times.

I really don't know what it means :/

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

I would like to know however (perhaps this deserves a thread of its own) why SOME women continually go back to abusive relationships.

I have seen the same thing many times... My neighbour has beaten his wife... I hear them, and I see her... yet she keeps going back...its frustrating to watch and I cant understand why she would put up with it, when there are plenty of decent guys out there who would treat her with respect.

I sometimes think there is a cultural issue in regards to this topic.. I think men and women think and find different things attractive in each other depending on their environment and the background.

I think someone already said it in this thread--it's what they're used to, mostly. That and they have terrible self-esteem; feel like they deserve no better, etc.

So many guys seem to focus on the women in relationships with abusive guys, confused about what makes women in general tick. The ones in abusive relationships are the minority--they just stand out more.

Generally speaking, women get with guys who talk to them, flirt with them, and actively pursue them. This has nothing to do with how nice they are. Naturally, a fraction of those guys who are making the effort to chase women will be jerks. A certain portion of the guys who don't make the effort to chase women are jerks, too.

 

[theslowesthand]

Yes,I truly believe if any truly nice guy exists he will not be truly well off or not reach the top which can make him bitter or turn him around ... I mean he could be good,but I believe he couldnt successfully become everyones boss,he most likely would be at the bottom or a standard position,which probably he wouldnt mind,so wouldnt be at the top

I know of people who are quite shy & unassuming (& most of them are "nice guys" to use the term), BUT they have managed to get RIGHT to the TOP of their fields (or at least right up there with the best). But those jobs are not managerial, just basicaly "doing the donkey work", which is what they like doing. Only one of them owns a company & has a dozen so people working for, and he fairly extroverted & confident with people, BUT he is also a "nice guy".

Funny you mention it, I've been told that I'm "too nice" too, and I still don't know what it means

I suspect it means you're letting people "walk all over you"??. And "not sticking up for yourself" when needed?

I think the clarification that this statement needs is not "what is a nice guy?" but rather "What is finishing last?" Do you mean they don't get high-paying jobs? Don't get loving families? End up in jail or starving or depressed and suicidal?

Or this thread could be named "Nice guys finish last... in some races"

A couple of things that I am curious about...
Firstly...what does nice really mean? What is the actual question really asking...? Is nice considerate? Caring? Sensitive? I think the answer to this question really depends on how one defines 'nice'

I think for the statement "Nice guys finish last", there's probably a "gazillion" equally correct personal interpretations for it. Everybody's got their own few personal meanings for that statement.
But i suspect the particular meaning for the term "Nice guys" that this thread uses in title, and probably the most common meaning ascribed to "nice guy" is: the person (guy? or girl??) is basically putting others' needs before their own needs (?)

 

[Kinetik]

A couple of things that I am curious about...
Firstly...what does nice really mean? What is the actual question really asking...? Is nice considerate? Caring? Sensitive? I think the answer to this question really depends on how one defines 'nice'.

I think the label 'nice' is very misleading and I believe nice in the context of this thread actually refers to a suffocating infatuation that is built on insecurity and jealousy. In that sense, 'nice' can be very selfish, manipulative, and infantile. If you're giving way more than you get, smothering the other person and calling them up ten times a day to check what they're doing and where they're going, then the relationship is imbalanced and no longer feels equal. Nobody likes a guilt trip and/or feeling indebted. Equality is what we all strive for, and I think therein lies the problem with Mr. Nice.

Being genuine, warm and strong is the goal, at least for me.

 

[MrJones]

I suspect it means you're letting people "walk all over you"??. And "not sticking up for yourself" when needed?

Most of the times it was people with low self-esteem, after I did something for them, sometimes even with an "I don't deserve this" and similar things.

Sometimes it's true that maybe I'm too coward to stand up for myself.

I guess it has different meanings for different people.

Anyway I don't think I'm "too nice" or even just nice, I just do what I want but also trying to help others get what their want, it's not like I only live for others.

 

[MrJones]

I personally dont see anything wrong with doing nice things for people you like or even giving them things if that makes you feel good. But it might make them uncomfortable if you buy them something really expensive and they didnt do anything to "earn" it so to speak. Thats all just rooted in societal norms and whats expected and whats not expected from men. But I dont think being really nice is in itself, naturally wrong. Plus when people feed me that line I think its a bunch of bologna. I think thats their way of saying "you're being really nice to me, so I think you must like me a whole lot, but I dont like you, so please go away." But they throw that "too nice" thing in there so you dont get your feelings hurt. PFFFT! Pfft I say!

Oh nono, I didn't mean it that way, it's not that I buy things to girls I like or such things. I just offer "help" to people who I think could need it (both men or women, not in a romantic way) just to show a sign of friendship and affection and then sometimes they say such things.

But now that you mention it, maybe some girls thought it was actually a sign of romantic interest :/

 

[hippiechild]

it holy-mother-on-the-hill-of-Satan's-side-of-Saturn.. depends

 

[Silatuyok]

I assumed it wsa talking about "nice" guys and dating. Since everyone likes to think that the bad boy gets all the women. Even though I think the quote was originally made by a baseball coach and was referring to playing sports. Im not sure though. If thats the case, I have no idea how it turned into a dating thing over the years.

Okay. It seems that most people are thinking of it in the dating context. Thank you for the clarification, because I'm obviously not familiar with this line of thinking.