Six reasons why many people with SA have trouble getting over it

[Lea]

I dare to put here a link to one of Dottie's posts, because I can relate to it a lot, and to Dottie's problem generally.

http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/twenty-something-avpd-8637/

 

[Feathers]

Hey Lea, I've often felt I might have some Asperger's traits too, it's nothing to be ashamed of imo.. It actually sounds kinda cool, no? Just a different way of functioning... Does an apple have to be ashamed to not be 'pear-shaped'? we come in all shapes and sizes..

There's a cool guy next door, neighbour's son, been diagnosed, he's still a cool kid.. It just explains some of the behavior.. It's just a 'label', it's not YOU.. You are so much more than a word, you're a unique individual...

I've been to a workshop where we did some of the stuff mentioned (it wasn't so 'deep') though.. (nbd was crying, that would've been kinda overwhelm for me maybe) Maybe you were overwhelmed too? A guy with Asperger's said he gets overwhelmed.. Or ADD? (I seem to have some ADD too..) I could follow some of the stuff, then forgot it.. (as we did something else) As for feelings, I do feel them or imagine other people's (sometimes don't guess right, sometimes do..) We're all different anyway.. Sometimes I wished I didn't have to 'feel' so much!

Maybe you also learn in different ways..? (I have had troubles with non-verbal learning and had to write things down/make visual reminders even for driving a car or such)

Only briefly read Dottie's post - seems to be struggling with work and such. Me too.. And I've heard comments from parents about being 'lazy' etc.. Parents can say these things out of frustration.. and some (like my dad) only know 'black or white' 'hardworking or lazy' - it used to upset me too.. (They don't know things like that may actually make things worse..) So yeah, lack of proper support and encouragement can be one of the factors to have difficulty in life too..
Maybe this could be like #7 (or #1) on the list/in life.. Many people just never learnt about things like effective communication or how to bring up kids..

There have been some threads about work and success/accomplishment already - it seems some people's definiton of success may be 'narrow-minded'... Who is more valuable, someone who 'never did anything' or someone who destroyed a few companies or caused some wars (while employed! & 'successful') and damaged environment, etc? We need a different definition of 'success' and 'okay life'!

Many people never 'amounted' to anything (eg my aunt who was blind, never got married, no job, etc, just helped at the farm what little she could) but we still loved her a lot!!
& My Granny has always been 'shy'/SA, and we still love her!!

 

[Lea]

What I realized on the Family constellations, people are NOT just separated lonely islands, there are invisible threads that connect them, it's like some invisible language which they can naturally read. I can't, it's somehow complex to me, I can't put it all together, I always concentrate only at one thing at a time and loose notion of everything else. Whereas others understand everything instantly, they don't even need to think about it or try hard, they feel it and they feel it right. Then no wonder they love to be in social settings, they find this interaction with others enjoyable. Whereas for me it is boring and I get tired easily, because I can't read the people, I can't imagine how they are feeling and how to react to them properly. It has nothing to do with that I wasn't sorry for them if they feel bad or so, it doesn't mean lacking empathy. Everyone who knows me knows I am a nice person, only very lonely and maybe I appear to them cold. They can't read me and I can't read them.. I guess they usually don't know what to think of people like me, because we are not within that invisible nework that connects all people and that gives them sense connectedness and togetherness. We are like strange fishes in the pond. Who don't behave according the rules. If this happens in nature, the strange, confused and confusing animal is usually atacked by the herd and eaten up .

 

[Lea]

Thanks for your reply Feathers, good post.

 

[Lea]

There may perhaps be some positive thing in this illiteracy that I described - we are immune to bad influences because we are not suggestible. I find normal people extremely suggestible, and also prone to brainwashing. They are influenceable by the society and it's trends, everyone is like the other, do the things that are done.. It isn't bad per se, but they often are sliding to dishonesty, others copy them and so it's getting widespread. We idiots are innocent .

 

[Sinar_Matahari]

Lea, no one here is calling you a coward. I is unfortunate that you found this thread offensive. I'm certain that it wasn't meant to offend or accuse you or anyone else of cowardice. I understand that it's tough when others fail or don't make an effort to understand you and what you're going through. Naturally, I can't pretend that I know what it's like to live with autism/AS. I can, however, tell you what it's like to live with SAD or GAD.
I would also like to take this opportunity to clarify that my reply to your post was not meant to be offensive or hostile. I am sorry if you felt like you were being attacked or ganged up on.

 

[Feathers]

There may perhaps be some positive thing in this illiteracy that I described - we are immune to bad influences because we are not suggestible. I find normal people extremely suggestible, and also prone to brainwashing. They are influenceable by the society and it's trends, everyone is like the other, do the things that are done.. It isn't bad per se, but they often are sliding to dishonesty, others copy them and so it's getting widespread. We idiots are innocent .

Hey Lea, I think people like this are EXTREMELY valuable... Especially in cases where accuracy or eg good scientific methods are important..
Many people with Asperger's or such tendencies may be engineers or scientists.. You know about Temple Grandin too, right?

When someone builds or flies a spaceship, do you want them to make it fly right, or shift left because they are dancing with the crew or otherwise eg the navigator would be upset - and crash into an asteroid?
I would definitely want someone accurate and unbiased on my side in times like this!

I have my own opinion about normalcy (as said in another thread, a very famous author/psychologist here said maybe only 2 people in our country are 'normal'! ) I think there may be creative and interesting people that are 'normal' too (but I don't know m/any! ) Practically everyone has at least a few quirks or odd habits or views (or odd parents/family/history)...

Think about it. I'm not someone who could 'understand' engineering.. I could never operate people either.. Does it make me a 'bad' person?
Understanding feelings/social situations is partly an acquired skill - but for a brain surgeon, not a most necessary one!!

There are LOTS of other aspects of you that make you an interesting and fascinating person - even just uncovering your unique 'hidden' views to other people can be fascinating! (Read Wikipedia entry of Temple, people were soo happy that she sorta explained to them what goes on in autistic mind!)

We can all LEARN a lot from you and from each other, and from many other people too..

 

[Feathers]

What I realized on the Family constellations, people are NOT just separated lonely islands, there are invisible threads that connect them, it's like some invisible language which they can naturally read. I can't, it's somehow complex to me, I can't put it all together, I always concentrate only at one thing at a time and loose notion of everything else.

I have sometimes had troubles with that too.. I've learnt a lot from books and been to some workshops, to understand myself & people better, and sometimes still have messed up.. I am also only now learning the constellations of who is related to whom in our little town..
Before, I thought, 'Wow, s/he's so popular/has so many cool friends/is in a group of friends' - turns out they were all related!! (so it was easier for them to be cozy with those people!) Some people in workshops also know each other well from before (some groups are long-term) and it may be easier to follow things then..

You can learn a lot about body language etc, or effective communication.. it may be easier for some than for others.. like skiing or marathon running.. for some, it is natural, some have to try hard and may never be 'world class'.. they/we can find other interesting things to do too..
Some may learn how to run by observing, some may need special instructions and to be shown & told how (not) to run (including me!) I enjoy some jogging/hiking, even if I was terrible at PE in school! Some ppl never jog, but maybe they can swim?

Also, different words/actions often speak differently to different people.. Online or RL, every group of people is different.. so sometimes it still feels like exploratory laboratory.. I can do okay with just one person or a few, and may get preplexed (or even shocked lol) in a group, sometimes.. Again, it's about self-acceptance even in such situations.. I am learning, therefore I am growing (and still alive).

Whereas others understand everything instantly, they don't even need to think about it or try hard, they feel it and they feel it right. Then no wonder they love to be in social settings, they find this interaction with others enjoyable. Whereas for me it is boring and I get tired easily, because I can't read the people, I can't imagine how they are feeling and how to react to them properly.

I was like that in high school and learnt a lot from a more sociable classmate.. I had NO IDEA how to talk to people, about what? lol
I learnt to fake it pretty well (you must gush over babies and dogs, or new hairdos or clothes/jewelry/recent events etc.) It still felt odd.. (I do really like many pets, I just didn't know it's an easy conversation opener and something 'proper' to say that most people like to hear.)
Discussing really important things still felt much better..

It has nothing to do with that I wasn't sorry for them if they feel bad or so, it doesn't mean lacking empathy. Everyone who knows me knows I am a nice person, only very lonely and maybe I appear to them cold. They can't read me and I can't read them.. I guess they usually don't know what to think of people like me, because we are not within that invisible nework that connects all people and that gives them sense connectedness and togetherness.

Thank you very much for the description of what it's like. Very interesting to read about all this. Hmm, maybe there could be a separate thread on autism/Asperger's and such? Maybe there are some already?

We are like strange fishes in the pond. Who don't behave according the rules. If this happens in nature, the strange, confused and confusing animal is usually atacked by the herd and eaten up .

Or maybe starts or joins own herd of exotic special animals? /Or makes/joins a space-ship? /
(If it's boring, maybe you're not with the right people? If it's just 'socializing' it's very boring for me too..)
Sometimes people who go against the rules are a lot of FUN & interesting - or discover interesting new things!

There are some cool Asperger's communities out there, some are quite inspiring! Have you checked out any?

 

[Waybuloo]

I agree that comparing yourself with another can be a negative mindset... but I think it can also be an enlightening inquisition.

To rule it out completely is like choosing to be ignorant of what your intuition tells you to notice.

Humans are social animals, hence we exist in relation to others, and that includes comaring with eachother. Added to that our innate competitiveness, it's not surprising. When I do compaireI don't want to do it because it really is detrimental to my mental health. Why the f do I want to feel bad just because my life isn't like so and so? I've been born with a unique set of genetic traits, life situations and socioeconomic environment. What life I make out of it is unique and why the f would I want to feel inferior just because i've not ended up like so and so who's had a completely different set of circumstances and life path? I don't want to keep living the life of a fool as it only serves to make myself miserable.

Anxiety disorders are due to a biological dysfunction in the brain. They are not shyness. So, yeah, CBT can go a long way to helping you deal with SA, but I think meds play a big role in addressing the biological aspect. And for those that will say there isn't a biological part, why do think some SSRI's and benzo's work so well in dealing with anxiety and phobias? I have tried CBT and positive thinking for years, and exposure, but I'm still very anxious even though it's alot better than before. So now I'm on meds and will continue with CBT.

It would help if you could quote some credible and reliable sources supporting your claim that anxiety is purely down to biology. After trying various meds including SSRI and valium for so many years I feel it has not helped AT ALL in terms of social anxiety and negative thinking, it might have even done something funny to my brain. My psychiatrist diagnosed me with depression and was quick to put me on zoloft for 2 years even when I saw no improvement, which made me suspicious of his true intent and interests. I am also cynical about the pharmaceutical industry's relationship with doctors in the US, where a lot of people supporting meds come from. For many reasons I don't buy meds. From personal experienec, the ONLY thing that ever helped, albeit short lived without constant exposure, is doing something that really pushes you out of hte comfort zone - social exposure. CBT in it's true form has not helped me, and i've tried it with 6 different specialists.

Whats stopping me from overcoming social anxiety?

I think part of me enjoys having social anxiety. Who doesn't like feeling sorry for themself?

Homer Simpson: "Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forfty percent of all people know that."

You might've said this in sarcasm, but there's so much truth in that. Victim syndrome. There are people who are disabled for life or suffereing physical illness and who don't complain.

I haven't heard of ACT before. Is it recognized by the APA as an effective form of treatment for social anxiety?

I don't know if it's recognised, but i've had it administered by a therapist at a university anxiety clinic, and it makes sense because it sort of combines mindfulness with being more accepting and less harsh on yourself. It puts you back on track on what you really want out of life instead of concentrating on combating anxiety head on. After not having much success with CBT I was put on ACT, so it could be an alternative for people for whom CBT is unsuitable.

CBT is a simple, practical common sense approach to overcoming anxiety, obsessions and so on.

It may not work for some people but it works for many. This proves CBT itself does nothing from it's own side, the real power of any healing comes from within a person.

Any method for overcoming anxiety or anything else must be tested by oneself because everyone is different and unique. This is why the wish to overcome, the wish to be from what i call 'SA LIFE' is so important. A life controlled by anxiety is not real life. This life is dysfunctional. This is why this wish must be strong else a person will not really test and see for themself. They will remain in a subtle depressive state with SA being dominant.
When a person really wants to test these methods, they will test them fully and find things that work for them. They will realise from within what helps.

This isn't to say people have not been testing methods to get better, maybe that person has not found the right therapy yet which helps. The point is that all therapies work depending on the person but we have to be committed to being free of SA life.

James

So true, the intention plays a big part in overcoming SA. Some people like me like the safety of SA too much and we have victim syndrom, it's how we get attention. For others overcoming may bear too much of a struggle and we are never certain of the outcome. It is so much easier and safer staying at home not experiencing those horrid emotions. I'm still searching for my ideal therapy, but me thinks the key is in myself. I'm starting to think that there's a part of me that doesn't want to change bad enough.

I dont realy know howto explain this properly... but....

I think the terms "SA" / "SP" etc etc is the problem.

While I agree 100% the condition is real ( i know exactly what its like to be anxious/go crazy/avoid social situations) it seems like its very easy to go "nah i wont go out tonight because I have SA/SP". Its like making an excuse without even trying something.

Agree and have done that in the past. That's still my last straw if I really am not up to it.

It annoys me that people who don't have a clue what this disability really means try to offer some smart ass cures. If only it was that easy! Maybe it is, but what OP suggests works only for people who are mildly anxious. The greatest misunderstanding of this forum is, that mild anxiety and autism-like symptoms are thrown into the same bag and labelled as SA. Then those who only had some mild anxiety and overcame it think that everyone can do it and who can't, is lazy or a coward.. Those advices are not bad generally, but out of the place here. If you're born socially retarded, there is nothing you can do with it. Wanting to cure it with those advices is like wanting to cure cancer with aspirin.

Lea of course you are taking it personal. It sounds as though you are racking your brain because what he suggests doesn't tally up with what is required to overcome your Asbergers, for the precise reason that I don't think he's advice is targeted at you. He is talking about social anxiety, not something so certain to be hereditary as aspergers. In your latter post you talk about this family constellation thing to illustrate your frustration at not being able to understand because of Aspergers, well that is not social anxiety.

I am moderate to servere depending on what situation I am, so I am not mildly anxious. I cannot keep any friendships as a result, and barely can be with my family. However I see sense in what he says. I believe my social anxiety is a result of genetic AND environmental factors. I probably took my Dad's introverted and timid traits, but I also suffered a dysfunctional upbringing and was somewhat abandoned. My therapist thinks my inability to relate goes hand in hand with anxiety, whcih all links back to my past. So you see the causes of social anxiety are complex and varied. If i'm not wrong it sounds like the type of anxiety you experience isn't social, because it has a real basis - you have aspergers and not being able to understand and emotionally relate would of course cause you anxiety. But that's not the same as the social anxiety OP was talking about, the type that is sustained by imagined faults with oneself. I have experienced certain situations that made me sure that al my anxiety depends on my mindset and whether I have my barrier up, and in that respect OP's suggestions are useful. When I first met this girl at work I was shaky, extremely anxious adn insecure, and I couldn't talk without blushing. After knowing her and seeing that she is not threatening, I notice a dramatic change, it's as though I bring forth my true self and display no signs of anxiety - so in my case, and i'm sure in a lot of SA sufferers', it's all in the mind.

I have AS but people would never think so if I didn’t tell them. They usually think I am just shy and quiet, or anxious. So it was implied to me I was a coward my whole life. I always heard, I have it because I don’t go out, because I don’t try enough to be social, what a nonsense! I find this unfair, that’s why I took somewhat personally the original post. And yes I think many people here have autistic traits, but probably don’t like to her it. They get offended by me saying so because they think they’re not THAT MENTAL and if I have it, I must be a lot worse off than them, so that I even shouldn’t be on this forum, but in some mental asylum.

To demonstrate a bit what I mean by aspergers, have you been to Family constellations? Try it and if you have no problems there, you are normal. If you do, then you might be like me.
How it works – there are up to 20 people sitting in circle. One person who wants to build a constellation starts telling her life story, including all her family, relatives, partners, husbands, children from X marriages including abortions and unborn children etc… It’s here when I start having problems, I have difficulty understanding the story, follow what’s going on, I don’t remember all the people. But surprisinly, the workshop leader has no problem with it, she knows perfectly what’s going on and instantly knows how to react to it. I assume also all others know. Then the concerned person chooses people from the circle to represent her family and life members, positions them in various constellation in the room (probably according to how she feels it, which I didn’t get, because I didn’t feel anything). Then the leader asks them one by one how they are feeling and what they are feeling towards the other members. Now the people start having the feelings and behave just as the real family members would.. I found it totally INCREDIBLE! I myself couldn’t even remember the original story, let alone who is who, let alone to feel what the original family members would feel!! But others had absolutely no problem with it, they quite naturaly played a show (often quite emotional) which I didn’t get. They were even crying and everyone knew who was who, what they had to feel toward him and what was going on. I was just staring with my mouth open. I told them right at the beginning that I am not able to feel what the others would feel, I even didn’t get what was going on! Although I tried hard. I tried hard to remember the story, I tried hard to remember the family members, but at most I managed to remember a couple of them (let alone I forgot it again when they slightly changed places). It was so hard for me that I was on the verge of collaps most of the time, I also felt like I can’t do it and that I would run away. I felt I was totally mental, retarded. How come I can’t cope with something others find so simple? Do I have low IQ? I am afraid I do, although when I did the test, I scored allegedly above the average. Or maybe I have very low emotional inteligence? I was on the workshop with my friend from elementary school who told me I was exchaggerating and not retarded, she remembers me that I used to have good grades. Many people I meet say I don’t have aspergers and that the diagnosis can’t be right because I talk normally and use gestures – I don’t seem mental to them. I know they think I am just shy and anxious, but the truth is, I am heavily retarded.

 

[Pookah]

People with Asperger's are much less a cohesive group and much more on a continuum than those with social anxiety. (Some Aspies don't have SA.)

 

[Waybuloo]

People with Asperger's are much less a cohesive group and much more on a continuum than those with social anxiety. (Some Aspies don't have SA.)

I think my mum might be a bit weird like she doesn't get certain things and is slow on the uptake, she also waits for other people's reactions before presenting hers, which all make me think she is on the less extreme spectrum of aspergers. But I could be wrong. If she is though she has no anxiety and her way of coping with not understanding the world is to make herself superior to others, complete oppositve huh?

Pookah do you mean that Aspies have more varied symptoms and behaviours as well as degrees of severeness?

 

[Pookah]

Pretty much.

With Asperger's you can on the one hand have someone who is very autistic who actually doesn't have a firm concept of the theory of mind. Whilst others may not be as severe and can understand abstract concepts and not take everything literally. The social anxiety is widespread with it and the social ineptitude is probably the easiest symptom to compare amongst aspies. The other is obsessions but you can imagine that the obsessions won't coincide most of the time. The social aspect is what gives us the most grief, in my opinion. In our case you more or less learn to mimic behavior over time. But you never really like doing that. For me I never will really want to socialize more than is necessary.

 

[coyote]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm learning a LOT here

thank you for your insightful posts, Lea and everyone else

aside from anything else in the thread, i think that the original post stands on its own as good advice in dealing with the roadblocks we all create for ourselves

we all know it's not easy to change our lives

but sometimes it's good to keep an eye on the things we might be doing that don't help

 

[philly2bits]

I have AS but people would never think so if I didn’t tell them. They usually think I am just shy and quiet, or anxious. So it was implied to me I was a coward my whole life. I always heard, I have it because I don’t go out, because I don’t try enough to be social, what a nonsense! I find this unfair, that’s why I took somewhat personally the original post...etc

Thanks for explaining it to me Lea. I would still like to know why you think many here have Autism. What clues set you off?

 

[Lea]

Thanks for explaining it to me Lea. I would still like to know why you think many here have Autism. What clues set you off?

I actually even wrote something about it, but I don't have it here at the moment, so I will post it later. Here is a link to a test that was around some time ago http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/autism-spectrum-quotient-self-test-18321/, and generally people got a high score. I did it now again and got 37 points. I don't even know why are you asking me, as it is quite easy to tell from the posts in my opinion. I sometimes comment on it too in the particular threads when I notice it, but don't want to bother people with it anymore, because they don't believe me anyway and only think I am weird. In fact I think most people here are on some scale of the spectrum, except of those whose "social phobia" started later in life and who used to be social before, people who love to go to parties, only are afraid, or those who even started going and that made them loose inhibitions, etc. Whereas if you have aspergers, you will still stay the same no matter what you do. People with aspergers also more likely never in life had a boy/girlfriend and have next to none friends. They might have comuplsive thinking, obsessions, can't do or focus at more things at once. Some have hard time understanding humour or take everything literally, etc. (fortunately this doesn't aply to me). Generaly I feel like I lacked some social instinct..

 

[Lea]

@ Sinar_Matahari and Waybuloo: I am not even that offended by the original post, if I knew my post would cause so much upheaval I wouldn't have written it. On the other hand it's nice that people are not indifferent to what I say, thanks!

 

[Lea]

Also thanks Feathers for your long (like always) and nice replies. You seem to me very bright, always have so many ideas!

I forgot to thank Coyote too, I am glad someone finds my posts insightful. I only thought people would think I'm weird.

 

[hoddesdon]

Well, I hope that is the end of the controversy, which has detracted from a highly worthwhile thread.

To me, this is significant:

"Your negative views come from poor treatment by others. This may have been caused by a number of factors but not by anything that is intrinsically wrong with you."

It is obvious when it is pointed out.

 

[philly2bits]

I actually even wrote something about it, but I don't have it here at the moment, so I will post it later. Here is a link to a test that was around some time ago http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/autism-spectrum-quotient-self-test-18321/, and generally people got a high score. I did it now again and got 37 points. I don't even know why are you asking me, as it is quite easy to tell from the posts in my opinion.

The reason I ask is because it's not to tell something like that from words on a screen and a couple of general problems listed. Sure, you may get a inkling here or there but to draw it out and say most of the forum is in denial about it is offensive to everyone. It's akin to if I said "I believe everyone here who claims to have AS really has AvPD and are lying to themselves as a way of coping." Sure, you may not care about such a statement but I'm sure many others would and such statements have no place on a support site.

I can understand you wanting to see things that are not there. You need to feel some kind of kinship and projecting your AS onto others might seem a good way to do it, I'm guilty of this myself to some degree with my own problems. But there are people here who do actually have your same problems and are open about it and I'm sure are more then willing to help. But lumping all of us into that group only hurts you because you'll be looking in the wrong places for help. Your reaction to this thread is evidence of that.

 

[Lea]

Haven't you seen the autism test? If someone has a high score there, I don't think it's a coincidence. And I didn't say I think many people have AS just only because I would like to be so or something subjective like that, but only because I am convinced it is a fact. I didn't say it with the intention to offend anyone either, for god sake. I just say it because I think it's true, it it isn't then isn't. It's just my opinion. If you don't believe it, noone can force you to do so. And of course I don't have any 100 % proof, I just judge from the evidence from the site. If I look on the score of the test, people usually got it according how I would expect it. There are some by whom the high score doesn't surprise me and some with low score whose results don't suprise me either.