Men and Women are aparantly not equal.

[JackOfSpades]

It may be the case that some jobs are more suited for a specific gender based on our societies gender roles or whatever creates a divide in norms between men and women, .

I don't believe this is mostly gender roles, so in part "unlearnable".

but the problem I find with it is generalizing it. When looking to hire someone each candidate should be looked at individually, and not as a part of a group (e.g. being male or female). There may be a job that, in general, is better completed by males rather than females, but that doesn't mean there isn't a female who could do it way better than most men as well. .

I agree with the last sentence whole heartedly, and believe everyone deserves a chance to be evaluated individually on their own merits. There are exceptions to everything in nature. But that doesn't change that there are common and general rules, despite whatever deviations there may be in it from time to time. To use those deviations as an excuse to not see that there is a common thread, would render a lot of things unteachable. Nature isn't perfect, and there will never be 100% uniformity. But because one man is born unable to stand doesnt change (or call into question) the fact that Man has evolved able to stand.

Really? That sort of seems crazy to me. If a women was up to the task physically I don;t see why she couldn't do the job well.

The biggest problem with this as that often those physical requirements are not the same for women, as is the case with Fire Fighters in the US. Women are held to a lesser physical standard in passing the test.

 

[Flanscho]

The biggest problem with this as that often those physical requirements are not the same for women, as is the case with Fire Fighters in the US. Women are held to a lesser physical standard in passing the test.

So in other words, you say that people who pass the physical tests for women ain't necessarily physically fit enough to do the job? Now, assuming that is true, that is not a gender problem, but simply that the test doesn't fit to the job. So the solution would be to make sure to have a test, that ensures that anyone passing it is fit enough for the job, no matter the gender.

 

[Agent_Violet]

ok- so here's a challenge

instead of spending all your time finding things you don't like

find the things out there that you do like

post those things

set the example

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[sullyS25]

ok- so here's a challenge

instead of spending all your time finding things you don't like

find the things out there that you do like

post those things

set the example

I LOVE THIS POST COYOTE! Thank you!

 

[JackOfSpades]

So in other words, you say that people who pass the physical tests for women ain't necessarily physically fit enough to do the job? Now, assuming that is true, that is not a gender problem, but simply that the test doesn't fit to the job. So the solution would be to make sure to have a test, that ensures that anyone passing it is fit enough for the job, no matter the gender.

I agree with you. The test should be changed to require the same thing from both genders. But I think the fact that it isn't speaks to this idea that men and women must be afforded all the same opportunities even when great concessions have to be made to allow it, simply because people are uncomfortable admitting we aren't identically suited to everything. And the concessions in this case are frankly asinine and illogical.

Men and women are not identical. There is nothing provacative about that statement.

We have different biologies. Our instances of specific diseases are varied. Our instances of specific mental health issues are varied. Our hormones and the ways we are influenced by them are different. And even brain function. We have varied evolutionary skill sets from each other. No one gender is better than the other. And there are always individuals who can buck any trend. But we are not identical. And that's perfectly okay.

 

[Flanscho]

I agree with you. The test should be changed to require the same thing from both genders. But I think the fact that it isn't speaks to this idea that men and women must be afforded all the same opportunities even when great concessions have to be made to allow it, simply because people are uncomfortable admitting we aren't identically suited to everything. And the concessions in this case are frankly asinine and illogical.

The question is: can a woman be a good firefighter? Answer: yes, of course. Some countries have female firefighters since more than a hundred years. And same as with all people who want to be firefighters, you have to make sure they are physically and mentally fit enough.

Sure men and women ain't identical. Same as no man is identical with another man. Some are tall, some are short, some are strong and some are weak, some are intelligent and some are stupid.


There is no reason why a woman shouldn't be a firefighter, same as there is no reason why a woman shouldn't be a president.

 

[coyote]

:applause::applause::applause:

I LOVE THIS POST COYOTE! Thank you!

i had to go back and look at it, because i didn't remember posting all that

apparently, at around that time there was alot of people endlessly posting complaints about how screwed up they thought the world is

not like the forum is now

 

[Opaline]

Well... I hope we can agree to disagree with no hard feelings. If not, I guess I might lose some friends on here, lol. Sometimes people take these things personally, or think that just because someone holds a politically incorrect viewpoint that must mean he/she is scum. I hope you all don't think that I don't hate women - I am a woman. I just don't buy into all the gender equality stuff. Sorry.

 

[Gadfly]

I still like you, Opaline, even though you probably suck at firefighting.

 

[MikeyC]

I don't hate women - I am a woman.

A little off-topic, but I am constantly surprised at how many women I know hate other women.

But anyway. I don't hate you, Opal. We just differ on this subject. :thumbup:

 

[vj288]

Well... I hope we can agree to disagree with no hard feelings. If not, I guess I might lose some friends on here, lol. Sometimes people take these things personally, or think that just because someone holds a politically incorrect viewpoint that must mean he/she is scum. I hope you all don't think that I don't hate women - I am a woman. I just don't buy into all the gender equality stuff. Sorry.

'tis just a friendly debate, and without having ones views challenged it is hard to strengthen them or find their weaknesses. They are much more productive than yelling matches

 

[JackOfSpades]

'tis just a friendly debate, and having ones views challenged it is hard to strengthen them or find their weaknesses. They are much more productive than yelling matches

I agree. I love friendly, productive debate. I find there's so much to learn from it. From critical thinking skills, to exposure to new ideas and perspectives.

 

[coyote]

Well... I hope we can agree to disagree with no hard feelings. If not, I guess I might lose some friends on here, lol. Sometimes people take these things personally, or think that just because someone holds a politically incorrect viewpoint that must mean he/she is scum. I hope you all don't think that I don't hate women - I am a woman. I just don't buy into all the gender equality stuff. Sorry.

perhaps the problem is with semantics

when people argue that "women are equal to men" it's like saying "apples are equal to oranges"

of course they're not "equal" - they're two different things

but what if someone were to say "women should be treated with equal respect as men"

or "women deserve to be paid the same wage as a man for the same job"

or "women deserve equal protection under the law as men"

or "women should have equal rights under the law as men"

do you disagree with those things, too?

 

[Opaline]

perhaps the problem is with semantics

when people argue that "women are equal to men" it's like saying "apples are equal to oranges"

of course they're not "equal" - they're two different things

but what if someone were to say "women should be treated with equal respect as men"

or "women deserve to be paid the same wage as a man for the same job"

or "women deserve equal protection under the law as men"

or "women should have equal rights under the law as men"

do you disagree with those things, too?

No, I don't disagree with those things. I have mixed feelings about certain aspects of women in the workforce, but that is for another conversation.

I said earlier in this thread that I believed these things firmly, but actually... I'm still forming my views. I'm not married to my opinions. They are always open to change. A year from now I will probably see things differently. I don't even have a good argument at the moment for my own opinions - I mean I don't have any good studies or statistics, although I could probably find them... but I'm lazy and don't care enough to do so right now

On the whole, I definitely believe in respect towards someone regardless of gender. I certainly don't think either gender is inferior. I think each gender has weaknesses and strengths that are inherent in whichever gender you come out as - but perhaps time will change my opinion on that as well. Or maybe not.

 

[Opaline]

A little off-topic, but I am constantly surprised at how many women I know hate other women.

Haha. I admit I find my sex frustrating quite often, but then men frustrate me too. I suppose it's just people on the whole that are frustrating. In this case, focusing on a gender is probably silly. Men and women are equally frustrating in many ways. They're people. People can be frustrating.

I do find women to be more, ahem - dramatic and prone to bitchiness, and consequently I end up having more male friends than female. But I don't hate my gender - most of the time

 

[coyote]

No, I don't disagree with those things...

well, as far as the meaningful political/legal debate goes concerning "gender equality" - those are the core issues

not whether one gender is "better" than the other

unfortunately, many people are unable to draw this distinction

 

[MikeyC]

perhaps the problem is with semantics

when people argue that "women are equal to men" it's like saying "apples are equal to oranges"

of course they're not "equal" - they're two different things

but what if someone were to say "women should be treated with equal respect as men"

or "women deserve to be paid the same wage as a man for the same job"

or "women deserve equal protection under the law as men"

or "women should have equal rights under the law as men"

do you disagree with those things, too?

Apples and oranges are both different, sure, but they're both fruits, just as males and females are both humans. I see what you're saying, and I don't think that one sex is superior to another. I dream of the day sexism is eradicated for good, but we'll see. ::

Women do deserve equal pay to men. I will never understand why this is not happening.

I do find women to be more, ahem - dramatic and prone to bitchiness, and consequently I end up having more male friends than female. But I don't hate my gender - most of the time

This is the exact reason why the girls I know hate other girls: the bitchiness. Of course men can be annoying, too, but most of my female friends prefer the company of men. Just a crazy thing I notice.

 

[coyote]

Women do deserve equal pay to men. I will never understand why this is not happening.

i can't understand it either

and everywhere i've ever worked, the pay has been the same for everyone in the same position, regardless of gender or anything else

 

[MikeyC]

i can't understand it either

and everywhere i've ever worked, the pay has been the same for everyone in the same position, regardless of gender or anything else

Yeah, to be honest, the women that do the same job as me get the same pay, so I guess more companies are wising up to it. Plus our bosses are mostly women and they probably wouldn't stand for it, either. ::

 

[Pookah]

When Hilary Clinton runs for president I am voting for her and I hope she wins.