Isn't CBT Completely Unrealistic?

HopelessMess

Active member
Hopeless which books have you used so far?
I know this is gonna sound like a cop-out, but I honestly don't remember most of them. It's been 10 years since I tried CBT.

I remember that one of the books was "Dying of Embarrassment" which I only remember because I thought the name was cool ::p:. Another was "The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook", which still gets high marks on Amazon to this day, but I found it to be WAY too general.

The rest I really can't remember, but I had a stack of at least 10 to 15 at the time and read them all cover-to-cover.

I'm considering trying that 20 tape CBT series "Overcoming Shyness and Social Phobia", but reviews of it seem to be mixed.
 
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HopelessMess

Active member
No, I'm DEFINITELY considering trying it again. I'm cutting back on Klonopin after a 5 year addiction to the stuff, so I have to figure out "some other way". I'm considering either ACT or CBT. That's why I'm asking. I'm not just looking for random arguments about CBT ;). I'd never do that.

Like I said above, I may even try that ridiculously expensive 20 tape "CBT at home" set.
 
I used David Burns MD The FeelGood Handbook. I found a few links that had some lists from the book . I'll post them when I can find them.
 

Kiwong

Well-known member
Perhaps it is the effectiveness of who teaches you the CBT techniques that matters? Like there are good physios, there are probably good CBT practitioners?
 

Aussie_Lad

Well-known member
My problem with this has always been the idea that negative thoughts are supposedly ALWAYS unrealistic. The unfortunate truth is that the world is chock full o' a**holes. So it's quite likely that SOME times you'll be fearing "Oh no, that person is judging me negatively"... and that person actually IS judging you negatively. And that person may even express his negative view of you in some way: an insult, a comment, or blatant "dirty looks". :eek:

So what does CBT tell you to do THEN, when your fears turn out to be a little more realistic than your CBT training led you to believe? :confused:

.

To take this example one step further. Suppose you are at work, and you are having a bad day and are falling behing. You are fully aware of this, so when your boss comes up to you and suggests that you pick up the pace, you have every right to feel anxious. This is where you need to calm down and tell the boss that you are having problems and why you are having the problem. Also remember that he / she is pressured into getting the work out on time too, so they need to ask you to pick the pace up so they can show that they took action.

Another example. You are at a bar, and a group of drunk young men look at you and say "hey check out the fatty" etc. Your mission is then to tell yourself that it is the alcohol doing the talking, that there are a lot of people that are fatter than you, that their opinion of you is only valid to them. If you feel like making a comeback you could with something like "Oh and you must be the hottest guy on the face of this earth".

These aren't specific CBT techniques, but should give you an idea of how to start turning your thinking around.
 

Island_chic

Well-known member
So with CBT the goal is to replace your old negative, unrealistic thoughts with more positive realistic ones, correct?

My problem with this has always been the idea that negative thoughts are supposedly ALWAYS unrealistic. The unfortunate truth is that the world is chock full o' a**holes. So it's quite likely that SOME times you'll be fearing "Oh no, that person is judging me negatively"... and that person actually IS judging you negatively. And that person may even express his negative view of you in some way: an insult, a comment, or blatant "dirty looks". :eek:

So what does CBT tell you to do THEN, when your fears turn out to be a little more realistic than your CBT training led you to believe? :confused:

This is an honest question for CBT practitioners, not just a slam on CBT. I WANT CBT to work as it seems to be one of the few therapies that others have found successful. But it just seems to me that maybe the "acceptance" method would work better, or even something like Wayne Dyer's theory that you just have to say to yourself "I don't CARE what anyone else thinks. Their opinion of me is not as valuable as my own and makes very little real difference in my life."

So seriously, CBTers: What happens when your "fear of being judged, ridiculed, or looking stupid" turns out to be real? Does CBT offer a way to deal with this?

.
I've had CBT and lots of therapy. You shouldn't care what the world thinks ..there will always be haters. You got to learn to not let it affect you. It's not your problem.. it the hater's problem. I use to think (like your stating) that way but now it doesn't really bother me. I don't let it affect me. I needed more therapy to learn not to let nonsense hogwash bother me. More therapy to change you mindframe will get you past this issue. I'm sure of that!! :)
 

dpr

Well-known member
So with CBT the goal is to replace your old negative, unrealistic thoughts with more positive realistic ones, correct?

My problem with this has always been the idea that negative thoughts are supposedly ALWAYS unrealistic. The unfortunate truth is that the world is chock full o' a**holes. So it's quite likely that SOME times you'll be fearing "Oh no, that person is judging me negatively"... and that person actually IS judging you negatively. And that person may even express his negative view of you in some way: an insult, a comment, or blatant "dirty looks". :eek:

So what does CBT tell you to do THEN, when your fears turn out to be a little more realistic than your CBT training led you to believe? :confused:

This is an honest question for CBT practitioners, not just a slam on CBT. I WANT CBT to work as it seems to be one of the few therapies that others have found successful. But it just seems to me that maybe the "acceptance" method would work better, or even something like Wayne Dyer's theory that you just have to say to yourself "I don't CARE what anyone else thinks. Their opinion of me is not as valuable as my own and makes very little real difference in my life."

So seriously, CBTers: What happens when your "fear of being judged, ridiculed, or looking stupid" turns out to be real? Does CBT offer a way to deal with this?

.

The thing is, people with social phobia think any and everyone is judging them or will judge them.

The main thing with CBT is it targets distorted thinking. Your thinking is distorted so most of your negative thoughts are irrational, which is why you try to learn to replace them with rational thoughts.

The problem with your example is that there is rarely a time where you can confirm that someone is indeed judging you or insulting you, etc. If some guy says right to your face, "I think you're a dick!" then great... well not great... but great because you have confirmation that he is insulting you. But that's not really typical. A more typical situation for a social phobic is where he/she talks with a person or group of people, then leaves thinking, "Oh man I sounded like such a loser, they probably think I'm so stupid, I bet they're talking about me right now."

There is a "distorted thought" in the CBT list for these very situations. It's called "Mind Reading." The idea is that when you start to think in this fashion, you remind yourself that you can't read other people's minds, and it is irrational to think you can, and futile since you'll never be able to even if you want to really bad.

Therefore, it doesn't matter whether the person really is judging you in their heads or not. Since you can't read their minds, you'll never know, and that's why it is irrational to dwell on it.
 

R3K

Well-known member
i would just get totally de-railed the instant someone tried to redefine "rational thinking" for me in the cbt program. but then, i've stood in front of a car going 40mph as it came screeching to a halt to nudge my shins because i didn't want to look jumpy and panicky to everyone in the intersection. so rational thinking, positive, negative is all out of whack for me. it's all just acedemics. i do what i must to deal with the SAD with my brain wired the way it is.
 

HopelessMess

Active member

Thanks guessed! These were very helpful, at least the "ten forms of twisted thinking" thing, because I recognized many of my own thought patterns. The "ten ways to untwist" just seem impossible to me right now, but maybe with some practice...who knows?

To take this example one step further. Suppose you are at work, and you are having a bad day and are falling behing. You are fully aware of this, so when your boss comes up to you and suggests that you pick up the pace, you have every right to feel anxious. This is where you need to calm down and tell the boss that you are having problems and why you are having the problem. Also remember that he / she is pressured into getting the work out on time too, so they need to ask you to pick the pace up so they can show that they took action.

Another example. You are at a bar, and a group of drunk young men look at you and say "hey check out the fatty" etc. Your mission is then to tell yourself that it is the alcohol doing the talking, that there are a lot of people that are fatter than you, that their opinion of you is only valid to them. If you feel like making a comeback you could with something like "Oh and you must be the hottest guy on the face of this earth".

These aren't specific CBT techniques, but should give you an idea of how to start turning your thinking around.

Hmm... now I'm starting to think that I was wrong about Wayne Dyer's book/philosophy. These scenarios and coping techniques that you've mentioned seem like stuff right out of Dyer's "Your Erroneous Zones" book. So maybe Dyer's techniques ARE based on CBT after-all.(sorry Katie :) )

The only difference is that Dyer believes that stuff like "comebacks, retaliation, etc" are useless and basically mean that you ARE letting someone else's opinion effect you. After all, if you REALLY don't care what someone thinks, then you wouldn't need to "tell them off" to feel better. Dyer believes that just realizing that their opinion is truly meaningless in your life should be enough to dismiss it, as you would dismiss the ramblings of a mentally disturbed person on a sidewalk.

The thing is, people with social phobia think any and everyone is judging them or will judge them.
[SNIP]
A more typical situation for a social phobic is where he/she talks with a person or group of people, then leaves thinking, "Oh man I sounded like such a loser, they probably think I'm so stupid, I bet they're talking about me right now."
[SNIP]
There is a "distorted thought" in the CBT list for these very situations. It's called "Mind Reading." The idea is that when you start to think in this fashion, you remind yourself that you can't read other people's minds, and it is irrational to think you can, and futile since you'll never be able to even if you want to really bad.
I definitely have the irrational thought that people are always judging me. It's absolutely ridiculous. When someone is walking towards me on a sidewalk, I think that they are evaluating me, the way I'm walking, whether or not I look like a "weirdo", etc etc. It's really silly since I'm never doing the same to them, so why would they be doing that to me? And if they are, then they are REALLY strange, so why should I care?

On the old "Lovelines" radio show, Dr. Drew used to refer to this kind of thinking as believing "I'm a piece of crap... that the world revolves around" :D. In other words, you feel absolutely worthless, yet you still manage to convince yourself that people are so consumed with you that they are busy judging, evaluating, and discussing you behind your back. After all, if you were such a loser, people would simply dismiss you with maybe one sentence and that's it. They wouldn't put much mental energy into evaluating you.

My problem with the "mind reading" irrational thought- is that I've often told people things about others that no one else seemed to notice, like "that guy is really selfish", "that girl is untrustworthy", or "that guy is not a very good friend". This was not from "mind reading" but just from closely examining them, how they act, what they say, their body language, etc(yes I know all SPers do this :) ). The problem is that MANY times my "evaluations" of people have proven to be true. People have said to me "Wow you are very intuitive. You were right about him".

For example, a group of my friends once had a roommate named Nathan that they all absolutely loved and thought he was the greatest guy in the world. I kept telling them "There's something a bit off with that guy. He seems a little strange or withdrawn". In short, I just didn't like or trust him.

One night, while my friends were all out of town for the weekend, Nathan loaded all of their valuables into his car, and just left, never to be seen again. He cleaned them out.

Everyone was astonished by this, except me. In fact the story was told to me by each of them and every time they always started the story with "Remember how you always used to say that Nathan was strange? Well..."

Anyway, my point being that I've had many incidents like this where my supposedly "irrational thoughts" about people were confirmed. This just tends to make me hang on to my "people reading" behavior and makes me believe that my impressions of people are accurate.

Then again, I also have the VERY pessimistic/avoidant attitude that if you always think the worst of people, eventually you'll be proven correct. Sad thing is- this usually turns out to be true.

i would just get totally de-railed the instant someone tried to redefine "rational thinking" for me in the cbt program. but then, i've stood in front of a car going 40mph as it came screeching to a halt to nudge my shins because i didn't want to look jumpy and panicky to everyone in the intersection.
I hear ya brotha! :) I've done similar things. The sadly ironic thing about these situations is that you're SO obsessed with trying not to look "weird" or "silly" that you actually end up DOING things that MAKE you look weird or silly. Grrr, it just sucks ::(:
 

Feathers

Well-known member
Hey HM!

I was gonna recommend The Feeling Good Handbook but someone beat me to it! It really helped me a lot in the past!

Funny thing is, Dr David Burns has a situation at the front of the book when he is telling his own story: he was in hospital, worried his newborn son would be born with some severe problems, waiting to hear the news... (That's a REALISTIC and possible problem! Then he goes on to tell how he turned his thinking around: if this happened, why would it be a bad thing? 'People would think badly of him' But would they really? Does he think badly of people who have kids with learning disabilities or such? Then he started imagining what he could do with the kid even if he did have learning disabilities and such, they could collect coins together - which his smart other kid didn't want to do, they could go places together.. and he stopped feeling frantic about it. Was it still a possible problem? Yes. But he stopped freaking out about it.)

So, a bit of a taste for CBT.

He gives a lot of exercises how to turn the thinking around, so I highly recommend the book too. (One person on these forums said the book did nothing for him so I guess it's not a magical cure-all, but for me it was helpful, maybe you can at least check if it's in your library. It's been translated into my language and is available in libraries here too, as far as I know.)

Both ACT and CBT seem similar, you can explore them online and in books first, and see which one you are most comfortable with.

Also, Barbara Sher has a cool book called Wishcraft (it's available free online too if you google it) she says to write down your wish, then write down all obstacles, then make them into 'projects' and brainstorm how to come around them.. There's also a book something like 'The power of negative thinking' (not sure if it's an exact title) about how important our negative emotions and opinions can be too.. They can indeed tell us important stuff..

CBT is not about negating every negative emotion or feeling or intuition, sometimes they are very appropriate! It's more about trying to figure out if what we are thinking is excessive or not, and if it is, what would be a better and more healthy response..

And yeah, CBT (or similar principles) are used in many 'pop psychology' books, at least parts of it.. I was actually quite surprised to see it as a 'valid' psychological approach..

About fear of being judged - my favorite books on this were Meeting People Is Fun (old tiny volume, but very helpful to me as an angsty teenager) and the classic How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie - there's a summary on Wikipedia and it seems it might be available for free online too? (not sure if it's the full version, I read the real book..) They say most people like to think about themselves and their problems, and this is mostly true.. :)
 
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Thanks guessed! These were very helpful, at least the "ten forms of twisted thinking" thing, because I recognized many of my own thought patterns. The "ten ways to untwist" just seem impossible to me right now, but maybe with some practice...who knows?

Hopeless,

You're welcome.

It may sound simple but try to keep these things in mind:

Go at your own pace.

Sometimes you will have breakthroughs and feel you are making progress, sometimes you will hit a wall.

If you fall back into old patterns, simply recognize it and start over.
If you are unable to explore certain feelings or memories because they are too painful, it means you aren't yet ready.

Try to notice how many times your mind says " I should, I ought to, I'm supposed to" these are nearly always forms of twisted thinking and lead to self rebuke.

All of these things are a natural part of the entire process.


CBT is not about negating every negative emotion or feeling or intuition, sometimes they are very appropriate! It's more about trying to figure out if what we are thinking is excessive or not, and if it is, what would be a better and more healthy response..

Well said, Feathers.
 

awkwardamanda

Well-known member
i would just get totally de-railed the instant someone tried to redefine "rational thinking" for me in the cbt program. but then, i've stood in front of a car going 40mph as it came screeching to a halt to nudge my shins because i didn't want to look jumpy and panicky to everyone in the intersection. so rational thinking, positive, negative is all out of whack for me. it's all just acedemics. i do what i must to deal with the SAD with my brain wired the way it is.
I hear ya brotha! :) I've done similar things. The sadly ironic thing about these situations is that you're SO obsessed with trying not to look "weird" or "silly" that you actually end up DOING things that MAKE you look weird or silly. Grrr, it just sucks ::(:
That's about what I was gonna say. Looking panicky when you're about to get hit by a car would be a totally normal reaction. Stand there and do nothing and people start wondering, "Why the f--- didn't you get outta the way!!!":eek: I'm amazed you even had the time to stop and think about not panicking.

There's also a book something like 'The power of negative thinking' (not sure if it's an exact title) about how important our negative emotions and opinions can be too.. They can indeed tell us important stuff..
That sounds more like my kinda book, lol!:rolleyes: (Just for the record, a friend back in high school nicknamed me Negabum.)
 

IamThisOne

Well-known member
I watched a youtube video and this guy said that in CBT they made you get up in front of everyone and act like an animal, like making noises and stuff. No way would I do that. I don't see how I could ever do anything like that.
 

R3K

Well-known member
That's about what I was gonna say. Looking panicky when you're about to get hit by a car would be a totally normal reaction. Stand there and do nothing and people start wondering, "Why the f--- didn't you get outta the way!!!":eek: I'm amazed you even had the time to stop and think about not panicking.


That sounds more like my kinda book, lol!:rolleyes: (Just for the record, a friend back in high school nicknamed me Negabum.)

i was actually crossing the intersection with two buddies, buddy A was in front of me and buddy B was behind me, this dusty van with bald tires came ploughing down upon us and my first instinct was to stay calm and make sure my buddies jumped clear. as the car was screeching to a halt though i had enough time to jump out of the way but by then my senses already gathered that the car would stop right before hitting me, or would only nudge me like it did. thanks SAD-spurred hypersensitivity!

i've kind of done my own improvised cbt, training/programming my mind over my lifetime to not overreact to the shock of someone walking up to me and asking me for the time. but it's carried over into every other aspect of my life as well, including my perception of physical danger (cars barreling toward me at high speeds).

the point i been tryin to make (and i think Hopelessmess as well) is that the degree of desensitization to negative/hurtful judgements might make a person too soft. what if you're in that extreme, rare situation where it's more mentally damaging to ingnore a bombardment of negative jundgements and insults than to bristle visibly or retaliate verbally just a little bit, even if the act gives you an anxiety attack? same thing for me, what if the van had faulty breaks and they gave out halfway, my dulled sense of physical danger would have gotten me run-over.

btw, i don't have any real beef with cbt, but with what little i've researched on it i can see there might be some holes in this treatment method.
 

Feathers

Well-known member
CBT teaches you to not care about what others think about you because others opinion is not important at all
Well, I don't know where you found this, surely not in the books I read..
Actually, it might be more what eg Dr Phil would write..

Other people's opinions are of course still important sometimes, for example if you're choosing to buy a car you may ask around what they'd recommend, what experience they had with certain models..

And of course you don't want to hurt other people on purpose, if it can be avoided.. It's just natural respect and self respect and courtesy...

CBT teaches you not to ascribe too much to other people's opinions (especially if it's all in your imagination mostly), and to just take them as one of the sources of information.
For example, if a Dad is over anxious he might hurt his kids, how his kids actually see him is an important source of information. Are they visibly afraid of him or not, etc.

people judgments are wrong %100 because it depends on their own previous experience and not on your personality
Again, it depends on the people. I'd say many of people's judgmenets may be wrong, some people may be very intuitive or experienced and actually get things right..
What CBT teaches you is to not ascribe too much importance to what people think if it's negative or interfering with who you want to be or what you want to do (when you actually want to do good things and just be who you are).

CBT also teaches you to try to guesstimate and evaluate things - do I think this is 75% true or 65% true? Then you do some thought-busting/reality checking and check how you feel about it again (maybe it's just 35% now).

you can stop bad people by knowing your rights and what is the right way to use this rights
Yeah it's good to know your rights. Not sure if this can always help you stop bad people - sometimes yeah.. It's also good to know one's responsibilities.. (to ideally be to others as we'd like them to be to us, of course there are exceptions to this sometimes too, overall I think it's nice to be treated with respect and to treat others with respect too..)
 
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