Isn't CBT Completely Unrealistic?

[HopelessMess]

So with CBT the goal is to replace your old negative, unrealistic thoughts with more positive realistic ones, correct?

My problem with this has always been the idea that negative thoughts are supposedly ALWAYS unrealistic. The unfortunate truth is that the world is chock full o' a**holes. So it's quite likely that SOME times you'll be fearing "Oh no, that person is judging me negatively"... and that person actually IS judging you negatively. And that person may even express his negative view of you in some way: an insult, a comment, or blatant "dirty looks".

So what does CBT tell you to do THEN, when your fears turn out to be a little more realistic than your CBT training led you to believe?

This is an honest question for CBT practitioners, not just a slam on CBT. I WANT CBT to work as it seems to be one of the few therapies that others have found successful. But it just seems to me that maybe the "acceptance" method would work better, or even something like Wayne Dyer's theory that you just have to say to yourself "I don't CARE what anyone else thinks. Their opinion of me is not as valuable as my own and makes very little real difference in my life."

So seriously, CBTers: What happens when your "fear of being judged, ridiculed, or looking stupid" turns out to be real? Does CBT offer a way to deal with this?

.

 

[coyote]

CBT isn't some sort of brainwashing where you arbitrarily change all the thoughts in your head.

The idea is to examine specific situations that cause you anxiety or depression, and break down the automatic, unconscious thought patterns that trigger the negative emotions.

Once you examine the pattern of automatic thoughts to see how irrational and/or invalid they are, it allows you to choose to think in a more rational manner in the same situation without triggering the negative emotion

So if you run into an ******* - you won't just automatically get anxious and avoid him without thinking like you used to - instead, you'll be able to stop and think, "hey, this guy is an ******* - if I give him a piece of my mind, nothing bad is going to happen, and I'll feel better about it." OR it can allow you to think rationally, "hey this guy is an *******, he looks like trouble I don't need, it will better for me if I walk away this time, and it won't make me a bad person for doing so."

Does that make sense?

 

[EasySkanking]

CBT works dude... the simple fact is that most people don't judge you most of the time. I've done some pretty stupid stuff on purpose and I haven't noticed anyone judging me lol.... I can't remember the last time I was judged to be honest.

And of course, if you are judged negatively... who cares?

Like someone said, those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind.

People that mind your "differences" don't matter and those that matter don't mind them . Hope that makes sense.

Besides, what I've realized recently is that it's not me actually being judged negatively or embarassed that scares me... It happened today and happens often enough apparently, and I'm just like "I don't give a **** " What bothers me are the thoughts that are automatically created by my head that I should be scared of being judged in every social situation. CBT helps me realize that most of the time people aren't judging me, so I don't have to be scared of being scared of being judged .

 

[awkwardamanda]

I don't think I could ever go through that. I'm stubborn, for one thing. But on top of that, I'm a pessimist, and I have no desire to be an optimist. If I wanted to be an optimist, then by definition, I would already be one. I'm not. And no one is ever going to force me to be. And the idea that these negative thoughts and fears are irrational doesn't really make sense to me. Many of us were bullied and abused and generally disliked throughout our lifetimes. And you expect me to believe that my fear of people is irrational? Bullsh*t! I think have a pretty good reason to think people will hate me or judge me.

 

[EasySkanking]

How old are you amanda?

I ask this because what you describe seems to exist only in the "teenager" world mostly. I remember things being like that for me when I was a teenager. As soon as I became and adult, things change. Adults aren't childish, they are more open and forgiving, because they must suffer consequences now.... it's not like being a child, where they can do whatever they want without much consequences.

For example, if someone said something negative or insulting to me nowadays, I wouldn't let them... and go as far as getting my ass kicked before I let someone do it. The consequences here being that I would beat the **** out of them.... or they could get in trouble with the police for doing it. I don't know, adults are more "adult-like", more responsible and thoughtful.... they understand things more. So things like "judging" don't happen as often in the adult world... and if they do, you are an adult now, and you just don't give a **** .

You got a reason to believe that people will judge you or hate you, but in reality (the adult world - which you will be a part of for most of your life) this doesn't happen as often as you think... and if it does, you are able to defend yourself now..

 

[awkwardamanda]

I'm 25. But then, most teenagers have more social skills than I ever will.

 

[guessed]

With CBT, you don't deny what you've been through and pretend everything's wonderful. You just learn to see where your own negative thinking is setting you up for a self fulfilled prophecy.

If you were bullied you have every right to be upset about it, and validate your feelings. The irrational aspect is when you assume that since you were bullied or treated poorly in the past, that it will automatically happen in the future. This is just one example.

 

[EasySkanking]

Do you go out? Do you meet any people face to face? When was the last time you can clearly say that someone judged you? (without having been anxious, because anxiety clouds your thinking). Are you giving people a reason too look at you and say "how odd"? Like wearing "strange" make-up... "dirty clothes" or a banana hat?

EVEN if, people do judge you negatively most of the time... say you are disabled... are missing an eye or something... why care? People just "think" negative thoughts about you and occassionally, some ******* might express his thoughts.

If this is the case, then you have to realize that we are all equal... we're all the same - made up of the same substance... well all think... we all express emotions....etc... we're more alike than we think. So when someone puts you down, they might as well be putting themselves down.

When someone puts someone else down it shows stupidity/ignorance on their part, because in order to put someone down, it would require you to be superior to that person. And the simple fact is, that we're all the same... we're all humans.

Does a brown cat make fun of a white one for being white? How silly is that? It's not like the brown cat somehow was able to change its skin and make it an accomplishment that it could brag about.

What if one cat was missing a leg? How could a cat with a leg put it down? If the cat with the leg didn't do anything to grow a leg out? It's not an accomplishment that it could brag about or feel superior about... it's mostly just based on "chance"....

The thing is, no matter how different, how more intelligent, more beautiful or phow ugly or stupid we are, we're all the same. So you can't put someone down, when you're just like them.

God I hate my keyboard... it deleted all that I had typed (it goes all crazy when I press multiple keys sometimes and makes me delete stuff - by back-tabbing to the previous page :/. I'm sorry I had a much better written response, but I hope this one makes enough sense... hope it helps :/

So basically, when someone puts you down, it means nothing because their insult is unrealistic (based on false notions/ideas of society.) So don't give a **** about it

 

[rodinski]

Explored CBT, didn't work.

Fact of the matter is, OCD individuals have already explored such techniques naturally. They already know what is realistic and irrational, and likewise, know which thoughts of theirs are real or not. Maybe in mild cases this works, but in the more severe cases? Good luck.

Sometimes you gotta understand which is real and what isn't. Hoping something to solve your issues just pampers yourself with the psychology that you are indeed getting help. In reality, you aren't.

 

[EasySkanking]

I don't get it?

CBT does work... it's used widely to treat SA... in fact, a lot (if not most) of psychologists think it is more effective than medication.

As for OCD, I think it might be difficult for it to work with it, because people with OCD just think too much, and likely as a result get their thoughts all jumbled up.

BTW, CBT does not work immidiately... it takes time and work to "re-wire" your brain.

 

[HopelessMess]

So if you run into an ******* - you won't just automatically get anxious and avoid him without thinking like you used to - instead, you'll be able to stop and think, "hey, this guy is an ******* - if I give him a piece of my mind, nothing bad is going to happen, and I'll feel better about it." OR it can allow you to think rationally, "hey this guy is an *******, he looks like trouble I don't need, it will better for me if I walk away this time, and it won't make me a bad person for doing so."

Here's the thing- Wouldn't it be more psychologically healthy to just go "Hey this guy is an a**h*le. What he thinks or expresses to me makes no difference in my life. I am happy with who I am." If you need to insult him back to feel better, then is that really a sign of a sound, at-peace mind?(I'm the same way btw, so I'm not judging. I just WISH I wasn't this way)

For example, if someone said something negative or insulting to me nowadays, I wouldn't let them... and go as far as getting my ass kicked before I let someone do it. The consequences here being that I would beat the **** out of them.... or they could get in trouble with the police for doing it.

Ah-ha! So the point of CBT is to figure out the appropriate and deserved conditions for handing out ass-kickings? Now I've got it!

Just kidding EasySkankin , but this brings me back to the point of my original post- Wouldn't it be better to just try to learn not to CARE what people think or what they say? I'm NOT talking about someone who is attacking you PHYSICALLY, and you defend yourself. I'm talking about the various losers you meet in life who always need to make themselves feel better with an insult, comment, or look that makes you feel worse.

The reason I make this point is- In all my life, I've only known a few people who seemed genuinely happy. These people all shared one noticeable trait- they REALLY didn't care what other people think. And they never felt the need to say "I don't care what other people think" as if they were trying to convince themselves or others. They just had this weird inner calm and self respect. If someone insulted them, they'd likely just walk away or make a joke of it.

For example, I had a friend like this and I once saw him get insulted by some random drunk a**h*le at a bar. The a**h*le made some comment about him having a big nose.

My friend asked with a smile "Really? Is it that big?"

The a**h*le said "Yeah enormous", still trying to get a negative reaction.

My friend, still smiling, said "Well then, I'm gonna go out and see a plastic surgeon tomorrow, cause I can't have strangers not liking my nose." Then he turned and walked away, no happier or sadder than he was before he heard the comment. And feeling no more or less confident about himself.

That guy was ALWAYS happy and got more women than I think I've ever seen anyone get(even with his big nose ). He was comfortable and social in pretty much ANY situation because he honestly didn't seem to care what ANYONE thought of him.

The irrational aspect is when you assume that since you were bullied or treated poorly in the past, that it will automatically happen in the future.

Just like Amanda, I'm a pessimist. And I think that's my problem. 99 people could judge me positively and I'd still remember the one jackass who had a criticism. That's why it still seems to me that trying to develop a "who cares" attitude is better than trying to develop an "Bad things probably won't happen" attitude. Because eventually, bad things WILL happen.

 

[EasySkanking]

Wouldn't it be better to just try to learn not to CARE what people think or what they say?

.

The thing is that that is impossible . I've tried it, it doesn't work.... well it DOES WORK. The truth is, I DONT CARE what people think or what they say... the problem is my brain is designed to autmomatically freak out when I encounter social situations/emberassment, even though being judged or embarassed doesn't scare me (I don't give a **** ).

CBT is used to fix your brain's automatic freaked-out thinking... so it doesn't do it anymore... well not just CBT... CBT is used for something specifically which coyote and guessed pointed quite clearly . I think metacongative therapy also helps to fix your thinking. I haven't done any meta-ct yet... but I think that in combination with CBT, it's the "ultimate" remedy for SA .

 

[guessed]

I'm a pessimist too, and I've been bullied and had people manipulate and take advantage of me. I've also had years of being bitter, wanting revenge, being 100% certain that people would treat me poorly because it always seemed to happen eventually.

CBT works. It's real and it's not about fake positive affirmations or lying to yourself. It's about learning how to recognize valid emotions and healthy reactions vs negative, counterproductive and irrational thought patterns.

Another thing. Realistic acknowledgement of a negative event is not the same as negative thinking.

 

[HopelessMess]

Explored CBT, didn't work.

Fact of the matter is, OCD individuals have already explored such techniques naturally. They already know what is realistic and irrational, and likewise, know which thoughts of theirs are real or not. Maybe in mild cases this works, but in the more severe cases? Good luck.

Yikes ::. I'm a bit OCD myself, so maybe that's why I could never quite grasp the whole CBT thing in the couple of times I tried it.

 

[guessed]

Hopeless can you give an example of a situation in your life where you tried to use CBT? It's hard to talk about it without being able to give a good example.

 

[agoraphobickatie]

you just have to say to yourself "I don't CARE what anyone else thinks. Their opinion of me is not as valuable as my own and makes very little real difference in my life."

So seriously, CBTers: What happens when your "fear of being judged, ridiculed, or looking stupid" turns out to be real? Does CBT offer a way to deal with this?

it's not just making yourself think "oh they aren't thinking negatively", it's changing your negative reaction to whatever the hell it is anyone else is thinking.. because you don't always know.. the quote you put up there is a positive reaction..

 

[guessed]

agoraphobickatie is right on point with this.

it's not about how someone reacts to you. it's about what you tell yourself in your own mind about the situation.

CBT is used to help you untwist your own thinking in regards to a negative event.

 

[coyote]

guessed and 'katie - you are both right on the money

don't think I could say it any better

 

[HopelessMess]

the quote you put up there is a positive reaction..

True, but that quote is paraphrased from Wayne Dyer's self-help book "Your Erroneous Zones", which is NOT a book about CBT. Dyer preaches the idea of trying to learn not to care what people think of you at all, kind of a mantra of "I'm Okay, I Could Care Less How You Are"

CBT is used to help you untwist your own thinking in regards to a negative event.

So are there any CBT books that actually address this? As in, what should I do if my worst fear DOES happen?

Back when I tried CBT, all the books I read just kept telling me to remind myself how "irrational" all my thoughts were. Then occasionally something bad or embarrassing would actually happen and I'd think "Um... but I thought thinking this might happen was irrational... Why'd it just REALLY HAPPEN then?"

 

[guessed]

So are there any CBT books that actually address this? As in, what should I do if my worst fear DOES happen?

Back when I tried CBT, all the books I read just kept telling me to remind myself how "irrational" all my thoughts were. Then occasionally something bad or embarrassing would actually happen and I'd think "Um... but I thought thinking this might happen was irrational... Why'd it just REALLY HAPPEN then?"

Hopeless which books have you used so far? would you mind if we talked more directly? it's difficult to explain through a thread.

CBT isn't used to gauge whether or not something you fear will happen may or may not happen again. CBT is used to help you deal with the feelings you have about what has happened.