Chivalry; yay or nay?

[Waybuloo]

i dont believe chivalry has any place in todays society. back in the 19th century and before, women were treated special....such as taking your hat off in their presence, standing up when they leave the table, helping them off of their vehicle or horse...but they also had a certain place in society then. no right to vote or own land, little say in the household, no say in government, etc. today its a different story, we believe in equality...or we say that at least. so, if you believe in equality, then what has a female done to deserve special chivalrous treatment from you?

im not trying to sound like a jerk, thats just how it is. i always treat all people that i meet politely and with respect. that includes females, but i no longer feel the need to treat them special. i behaved like a gentleman around them...never bring up sex, never talk dirty to them, hold doors open for them, etc. but this kind of treatment is viewed by women today as beta-male behavior, a doormat, or weak. granted there are exceptions, now i just dont care.
in this day and age, chivalry is null and useless.


**flame suit on**

Then move out of the USA.

 

[emre43]

I don't know if there are any Inbetweeners fans here but personally I hate it. My 18-year-old brother just got the movie for Christmas (he loves it!). I can't see how anybody can find it funny (even my 58-year-old dad does). Excuse my vulgarity but Jay, one of the main characters, always refers to women as tits, minge and fanny and people love his character, why?. It seems to be successful just because vulgarity is used as every second word. John McCririck is accused of being sexist because he doesn't call his wife by her name but as 'The Boobs'. So why do so many people love Jay? I would like to think that girls don't approve of being referred to the way he does...(even my 16-year-old sister loves it!). I probably come across as prudish. I can assure you that I'm not. Don't get me wrong I love to laugh and I can laugh at jokes about sex. But I just wish we had more respect for one another.

 

[Rembrandt Broam]

I don't know if there are any Inbetweeners fans here but personally I hate it. My 18-year-old brother just got the movie for Christmas (he loves it!). I can't see how anybody can find it funny (even my 58-year-old dad does). Excuse my vulgarity but Jay, one of the main characters, always refers to women as tits, minge and fanny and people love his character, why?. It seems to be successful just because vulgarity is used as every second word. John McCririck is accused of being sexist because he doesn't call his wife by her name but as 'The Boobs'. So why do so many people love Jay? I would like to think that girls don't approve of being referred to the way he does...(even my 16-year-old sister loves it!). I probably come across as prudish. I can assure you that I'm not. Don't get me wrong I love to laugh and I can laugh at jokes about sex. But I just wish we had more respect for one another.

Jay is funny because, for all his cocky and vulgar talk about women, it's all shown to be BS. Everyone is aware that he's making all his "experience" up, and the only one he's fooling is himself. The character is meant to be poking fun at the blokes in RL who swagger around, bragging about their sexual exploits when in fact they can barely approach women, and always manage to screw things up when they do.

I haven't seen the movie (I'll probably rent it on DVD at some point) but I loved the TV series because I could identify with a lot of it from my own school days. (Obviously the stuff on the show is much more exaggerated.)

 

[Waybuloo]

I don't know if there are any Inbetweeners fans here but personally I hate it. My 18-year-old brother just got the movie for Christmas (he loves it!). I can't see how anybody can find it funny (even my 58-year-old dad does). Excuse my vulgarity but Jay, one of the main characters, always refers to women as tits, minge and fanny and people love his character, why?. It seems to be successful just because vulgarity is used as every second word. John McCririck is accused of being sexist because he doesn't call his wife by her name but as 'The Boobs'. So why do so many people love Jay? I would like to think that girls don't approve of being referred to the way he does...(even my 16-year-old sister loves it!). I probably come across as prudish. I can assure you that I'm not. Don't get me wrong I love to laugh and I can laugh at jokes about sex. But I just wish we had more respect for one another.

I haven't seen much of the inbetweeners but to me the vulgarity and exaggerated masochism is used to highlight how far it is from reality. That in fact these are very nerdy people lacking experience so they talk like they are the opposite. It is funny not because we are laughing with them, but at them.

 

[emre43]

I really like your way of thinking OP.

Thanks.

I just wish we had more respect for one another.

When I say this what I mean is I wish we could be more poetic in our speech instead of saying things like "Phwoar, you're hot/fit, fancy a shag?" lol.

 

[Steppen-Wolf]

For me, one thing is to be kind, polite and just act in a decent way in general.

But I'm very wary about the whole concept of chivalrous behavior, I feel it has too many sexist connotations, and that's something I really can't tolerate.

If you treat women in such a different way you're acknowledging that they're in need of special treatment, and nothing could be further from the truth in modern times.

 

[emre43]

For me, one thing is to be kind, polite and just act in a decent way in general.

But I'm very wary about the whole concept of chivalrous behavior, I feel it has too many sexist connotations, and that's something I really can't tolerate.

If you treat women in such a different way you're acknowledging that they're in need of special treatment, and nothing could be further from the truth in modern times.

Yeah, I agree, I said earlier in the thread that chivalry was probably the wrong word to use. I believe that both genders should treat one another well. I guess what I should have said is 'Is Romance dead?' and 'Are you a fan of romance?'. Although I would also say that if a man is chivalrous I don't think he necessarily means it in any sexist way. I think he just wants to impress and act the gentleman. There are far worse forms of sexism.

 

[she1slander]

Yay for Chivalry! It was invented for a reason.

... women and men should respect eachother and act like they respect themselves. That means not treat eachother like an object and in a derogatory way such as illustrated by your example of men talking about women in a certain way. I don't think the behaviour of young women (not all) today help men to act in a respective way towards them. I do find that people who carry themselves with dignity always attract behaviours in the same vein...
About Chivalry, I think it's great to be protective and caring towards a woman... I do like romantic gestures, who doesn't? Unless you are a hardcore bitter feminist, or a mysogynist, or have a chip on your shoulders.

THIS. I've highlighted parts of your post to just link two of your points that explain each other very well, although I very much appreciate the rest of comment as well. :: The sentences in bold red will be the ones I'd like to refer to for the next comments I've quoted.

why should men be expected to extend a disproportionate amount of courtesy toward women? To me it just seems sexist in itself... some acts of chivalry and its expectations are ridiculous: pulling out chairs for women, taking her coat and hanging it up for her, women expecting men to pay the bill for the date, expecting men always calling or texting first... I don't feel as if I automatically deserve extra attention or deserving of more politeness because I'm a woman.

Wow. That's... well then, let me just quote Waybuloo: "Unless you are a hardcore bitter feminist, or a mysogynist, or have a chip on your shoulders", I can see why you belong in this era.

It depends on the person,I would just be me without thinking to much,I usually open doors to other people and etc. <-- I have seen girls complaining about this kind of behavior like the guy is putting her on a pedestal,personally I disagree,of course if I had a girlfriend I would value her more than others,she is with me,the others arent huh?

It seriously baffles me to think that girls would complain about being treated with specialty. I mean, no offense but if I were a guy, I'd be like, "what the hell is wrong with you woman?!" And I quote:
"I don't think the behaviour of young women (not all) today help men to act in a respective way towards them. "

 

[Kiwong]

A suit of armour and chain mail is very uncomfortable in the Australian summer.

 

[she1slander]

emre43, I am totally in support of all gestures displayed in the past (yes, including the standing up when a woman walks into the room) just as long as it is done in a polite, decent way and so chivalry is no exception to that. I really don't see anything wrong with chivalry back then, nor find it inappropriate, in fact, I see it as something that takes more patience and discipline in a man's part. As I'm reading these previous posts, I'm starting to get baffled (there's the word I'm sucked into lately lol) and rather irritated by the modern man/woman point of view of how men and women OUGHT to treat each other in order to suit the times. Sure, times are changing, but do we need to criticize or ridicule customs demonstrated in the past just because "that was then, this is now"? 'Cause I happen to think that this whole "treat men and women equally" and "it's sexist to do this/that" argument is getting really old. I was raised in a strict religious household and hold values that distinguish the roles of men and women to support rather than compete each other. If there's one thing that the feminist movement helped improve the modern society, it's giving women the rights to vote and to enter in the workforce. But as far as redefining the roles of men and women, it's turning into a fight between cats and dogs. Ridiculous. Maybe people who don't like chivalry are least likely to even notice the difference between being polite and being rude. Or even confuse polite gestures as downright rude and rudeness as polite. ::

 

[Merel]

Yay for Chivalry! It was invented for a reason.
THIS. I've highlighted parts of your post to just link two of your points that explain each other very well, although I very much appreciate the rest of comment as well. :: The sentences in bold red will be the ones I'd like to refer to for the next comments I've quoted.


Wow. That's... well then, let me just quote Waybuloo: "Unless you are a hardcore bitter feminist, or a mysogynist, or have a chip on your shoulders", I can see why you belong in this era.

It seriously baffles me to think that girls would complain about being treated with specialty. I mean, no offense but if I were a guy, I'd be like, "what the hell is wrong with you woman?!" And I quote:
"I don't think the behaviour of young women (not all) today help men to act in a respective way towards them. "

I don't see how this personal attack about me being a mysogynist and/or a "hardcore bitter feminist" is constructive or is an effective rebuttal against my argument. You also don't know me personally so I'm not sure why a suggestion as to what my behavior is like and presuming about how men treat me is really necessary. :/

Many young women around me today seem to really like chivalry a lot (inevitably there are a few of which just want spoilage and for a man to take complete care of them), and from what I can see my view on it isn't commonly held.

Chivalrous acts in a romantic relationship are unnecessary to me because I feel I can perform these acts on my own and I feel like it's making my man provide more for me in a relationship than I'm putting in for him. Again, I feel like chivalrous acts are broad generalizations of how a woman should be treated and how a man should behave, and I have personal desires of how I want to be treated as does he. I like to reciprocate with his personal desires, not desires that are determined by some different standard. I also feel a man can treat a woman with respect and be romantic without performing a lot of historically and/or widely known chivalrous acts for her and make it much more personal.

Chivalrous acts from a stranger or someone I do not know all too well yet just make me feel flat out uncomfortable, mostly because I have social anxiety and dislike any extra attention being showered on me for virtually any reason including my sex. I personally strive for politeness in my every day interactions - treat everyone around me (regardless of sex) with same amount of politeness and get the same in return. I don't think this is such a radical idea.

 

[emre43]

I haven't seen much of the inbetweeners but to me the vulgarity and exaggerated masochism is used to highlight how far it is from reality. That in fact these are very nerdy people lacking experience so they talk like they are the opposite. It is funny not because we are laughing with them, but at them.

But even if it is far from reality or not it is still sexist. I would hate to be casually referred to by women as 'The penis'. I'd be like ermmm, hello I'm a human being.

 

[emre43]

I'm starting to get baffled (there's the word I'm sucked into lately lol) and rather irritated by the modern man/woman point of view of how men and women OUGHT to treat each other in order to suit the times. Sure, times are changing, but do we need to criticize or ridicule customs demonstrated in the past just because "that was then, this is now"? 'Cause I happen to think that this whole "treat men and women equally" and "it's sexist to do this/that" argument is getting really old. I was raised in a strict religious household and hold values that distinguish the roles of men and women to support rather than compete each other. If there's one thing that the feminist movement helped improve the modern society, it's giving women the rights to vote and to enter in the workforce. But as far as redefining the roles of men and women, it's turning into a fight between cats and dogs. Ridiculous. Maybe people who don't like chivalry are least likely to even notice the difference between being polite and being rude. Or even confuse polite gestures as downright rude and rudeness as polite. ::

I agree, the feminist movement arose to improve women's rights and to make them equal to men. It doesn't mean they should stop being feminine and spar with men to outdo their masculinity. Pro-feminine means trying to make feminism equally as dominant as masculinity is.

 

[emre43]

emre43, I am totally in support of all gestures displayed in the past (yes, including the standing up when a woman walks into the room) just as long as it is done in a polite, decent way and so chivalry is no exception to that. I really don't see anything wrong with chivalry back then, nor find it inappropriate, in fact, I see it as something that takes more patience and discipline in a man's part. As I'm reading these previous posts, I'm starting to get baffled (there's the word I'm sucked into lately lol) and rather irritated by the modern man/woman point of view of how men and women OUGHT to treat each other in order to suit the times. Sure, times are changing, but do we need to criticize or ridicule customs demonstrated in the past just because "that was then, this is now"? 'Cause I happen to think that this whole "treat men and women equally" and "it's sexist to do this/that" argument is getting really old. I was raised in a strict religious household and hold values that distinguish the roles of men and women to support rather than compete each other. If there's one thing that the feminist movement helped improve the modern society, it's giving women the rights to vote and to enter in the workforce. But as far as redefining the roles of men and women, it's turning into a fight between cats and dogs. Ridiculous. Maybe people who don't like chivalry are least likely to even notice the difference between being polite and being rude. Or even confuse polite gestures as downright rude and rudeness as polite. ::

To be honest the only reason I was arguing otherwise is because other people were telling me that I was wrong I think it's entirely up to the individual. If one likes being treated chivalrously by a man, I can't see anything wrong with that. Likewise, if another person doesn't like it then fair enough as well.

 

[YellowBird]

i'm a girl and i like opening the door for dudes(my boyfriends?no never had and probably never will).
What i'm trying to say is i like being nice,i like being nice first,i don't see why women should be the ones to be pampered,men have souls too!

 

[emre43]

i'm a girl and i like opening the door for dudes(my boyfriends?no never had and probably never will).
What i'm trying to say is i like being nice,i like being nice first,i don't see why women should be the ones to be pampered,men have souls too!

Oh no, I didn't mean that women should be pampered. It's just as I'm a guy I was speaking from a male perspective

 

[Etbow23]

I don't know whether what you're describing is chivalrous or not...I thought of it just as romantic.

I would say that someone can be not really considered chivalrous and still wouldn't generalize women in the terms you were referring to (on online forums and such). What I mean is that someone could have respect for women and never call them such names, but wouldn't really necessarily chivalrous. It's a matter of respect. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as chivalry, but I guess it's related in a way.

I always thought of chivalry as being him maybe paying her fare, or opening the door for her..that type of thing.

Mutual respect and romanticism in a relationship doesn't necessarily equal chivalry.
I think chivalry to a certain degree is good and can make a woman feel good about herself...but it often only lasts strongest during the honeymoon phase of the relationship. After that, I think most good men will still show some to their wife/girlfriend...taking her out to dinner and paying for her and stuff like that, but it's not as big of an issue in the relationship as mutual respect, equality, and still having the romance in the realtionship after all that time. I don't know if I'm making much sense right now, let me know if you understand what I'm saying.

I'm not against chivalry to a certain degree, I just don't think that everything you're describing is chivalry; a lot of it just sounds like a romantic soul I myself appreciate it when my boyfriend opens the door for me or pays for my food or something like that. He doesn't have to; but he likes doing it because I'm his girlfriend. And I appreciate that type of thing because it makes me feel special. But it's not as important to me as being respected and loved. You know what i mean?

 

[Etbow23]

I try to be as polite as I can with everyone, without exceptions.
I'd try to be chivalrous with the woman of my life, though, and treat her like a princess. That doesn't mean, of course, that I would act as if she can't do anything by herself.

This is very good....chivalry to an extent to show love and affection...but not to insinuate she's incapable of doing things. Excellent point, and I guess that's why chivalry has a bit of controversy to it nowadays.

I guess I'm somewhat old-fashioned about certain things. I don't like the hyper-sexual media today and how it tends to objectify people, esp women. I like to think of people as individuals deserving respect.

 

[emre43]

I don't know whether what you're describing is chivalrous or not...I thought of it just as romantic.

I would say that someone can be not really considered chivalrous and still wouldn't generalize women in the terms you were referring to (on online forums and such). What I mean is that someone could have respect for women and never call them such names, but wouldn't really necessarily chivalrous. It's a matter of respect. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as chivalry, but I guess it's related in a way.

I always thought of chivalry as being him maybe paying her fare, or opening the door for her..that type of thing.

Mutual respect and romanticism in a relationship doesn't necessarily equal chivalry.
I think chivalry to a certain degree is good and can make a woman feel good about herself...but it often only lasts strongest during the honeymoon phase of the relationship. After that, I think most good men will still show some to their wife/girlfriend...taking her out to dinner and paying for her and stuff like that, but it's not as big of an issue in the relationship as mutual respect, equality, and still having the romance in the realtionship after all that time. I don't know if I'm making much sense right now, let me know if you understand what I'm saying.

I'm not against chivalry to a certain degree, I just don't think that everything you're describing is chivalry; a lot of it just sounds like a romantic soul I myself appreciate it when my boyfriend opens the door for me or pays for my food or something like that. He doesn't have to; but he likes doing it because I'm his girlfriend. And I appreciate that type of thing because it makes me feel special. But it's not as important to me as being respected and loved. You know what i mean?

Yeah, chivalry isn't what I meant in hindsight. I am going to start a new thread with a new poll and alter my original post slightly so that it makes sense.

 

[Waybuloo]

But even if it is far from reality or not it is still sexist. I would hate to be casually referred to by women as 'The penis'. I'd be like ermmm, hello I'm a human being.

Sitcoms exaggerate things. Of course it's not acceptable to say these things in polite company, but tv provides a carricature to highlight the absurdity of life and people. Things are amplified for effect, not for factualness. Some people turn to soap dramas to escape to a fantasy land. Some people turn to comedy to unleash the need to enjoy themselves and laugh at things that might even be taboo.

Is there a reason the first thing that comes to your mind regarding what women might call you is 'The penis'?