Nice guys finish last...

[razzle dazzle rose]

It is still too early for me, and I won't express myself as eloquently as I want to, but there are just some things I have to address here and I just have to try.

It depends on the girl you are after.

...

It depend what girl you are looking for.

So a girl is either a slut or a good girl. Yeah...that was my whole argument. That premise is so unfair. Not just for women, but for men as well.

A woman being seen as a "slut" is the equivalent of a guy being seen as a "nice guy". Both are seen negatively by society. Neither is fair, but in this comparison, women have it much worse. We have had to do a lot of fighting for the freedoms we now enjoy. Sadly, in many parts of the world, women still have second-class citizen status, and in some countries women are still seen as property that can be destroyed if the male in her life so chooses to. The amount of abuse women experience is unreal. Women are raped, beaten, murdered, forced into prostitution, many times by the very men they loved. Women experience a lot of violence. So is all that our fault? Like, really? Women don't have to dress slutty to get raped either. Rape is all about power. If you look at a lot of pictures from slut walks, the women are wearing normal "good girl" clothes, not even showing cleavage or exposing leg or anything. And they were still raped. A lot of people use that "slutty dress" to excuse the real perpetrators. Why do they get off the hook here? It is so baffling.

Once a woman realise that she is worth a million and can say that to herself, she wouldnt be a slut. Its all about self-respect.

A woman can have self-respect and dress however she wants, and yes, even be a "slut" and sleep around if she so chooses. Some women may be more conservative in their dress and may choose to wait till marriage to have sex for the first time and that is okay too. Some may choose a little bit of both. To each their own. If some could have their way, all women would be in hijab garb...

I mean, it isnt going to change, if it was about rapist. Rapist aint going to stop because u suddenly dress even more slutty than usual, it just silly. But, like that lady mentioned in the vid, what isit they are really fighting for?

Yes, but it's unfortunate that people are victimised for being perceived as 'slutty', the issue should stand with the perpetrators, not the victims

Yes, Phocas, that is right on. This is what women are fighting for. There can be change. There is change all the time. Victims don't have to do the changing, the perpetrators do! We should focus on the abusers. They need to make the changes. They are in the wrong. Why all this focus on the victims? As a victim myself, it makes me incredibly sad and a bit disheartened that some people still place the blame on us. I suppose not all can have a change of heart, but we won't give up trying. The fight must go on.

I was this close to getting a degree in woman's studies but I majored in literature instead. This is a subject I am passionate about. I have been thinking about going back to school, and seeing how animated I got with this thread, I think I totally should go for it

 

[coyote]

I was this close to getting a degree in woman's studies but I majored in literature instead. This is a subject I am passionate about. I have been thinking about going back to school, and seeing how animated I got with this thread, I think I totally should go for it

i think that's a great idea

i was going to major in Women's Studies, too

but i found out it wasn't what i thought at all

i wanted to study women in a completely different manner

so i majored in figure drawing

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

I was going to mention that very term.

A lot of men, in particular these so called "love-shy" boys have madonna-whore complexes. Not all, but that is the impression many give me. They also have a lot of anger towards woman. All that hostility is not sexy.

y'know, porn didn't used to be like that

it's gotten really degrading in recent years

it used to be a thing of beauty

The porn I like has high production values, beautiful stars of both genders, and a plot.

I do like vintage clothes...so maybe it is time for me to look into vintage porn, lol ::

A lot of porn I have seen is very mechanical. Just fitting part a into slot b and c and d. Not very arousing, lol. I have to use my imagination to fill in the gaps.

I have a problem sometimes when watching porn because I don't know where it comes from, and if it was ethically produced. But that is a topic for another thread...

Meeeee too.

Then you know exactly where I am coming from

 

[DeadmanWalking]

i think that's a great idea

i was going to major in Women's Studies, too

but i found out it wasn't what i thought at all

i wanted to study women in a completely different manner

so i majored in figure drawing

Oh you! Always looking out to learn as much as you can about women, huh coyote? You have the determination to be a great scholar of women! Well, we show our love and respect for women in similar yet dissimilar ways!

 

[OceanMist]

I am gonna be blunt here: I like to have sex

Most people like having sex, male or female. When did I say people didn't like sex? Liking sex is normal.

so a guy who is willing and says so is more likely to get sex from me than a guy who is waiting for me to make the first move.

Um yeah, most women operate that way. They want the guy to make the first move. Once again, when did I say the world didn't work this way?

I won't think he is a jerk because he made the first move either.

Um, of course he's not a jerk for making the first move. You totally misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying making the first move is bad at all for the guy.

I have had sex with "nice" guys, and the whole time I feel like I am taking advantage of them or something because they are so nice and I am just being a big whore making the first move. In my experience, it is the nice guys that tend to have this point of view[

Okay, well that's your preference and opinion. Don't date nice guys then, if you don't like being with them. That's up to you.

 

[Predacon]

No, I don't believe that, these sort of things go in cycles but I don't think Nice guys finish last.

 

[twiggle]

26 pages in and all I'm really sensing is that some people agree with the statement, and others don't...


...Surely the mix of different opinions proves that such rigid statements are never worth paying too much attention to anyway. It's like coyote said earlier... there are too many grey areas involved when it comes to sex and sexuality. It's good to debate things but I don't understand why people are trying to prove the statement is either one way or the other.

Want to know what I think? Take generalised statements like this out of your vocabulary. They don't lead to a healthy view of the world.

This thread reminds me of a dog chasing it's own tail, and I'm not aiming this towards any user in particular. I'm just aiming it at the 26 pages. It seems unfair that threads like this can get so much attention yet I've seen ones where people are really trying to reach out for help and advice that only get a paltry couple of posts in reply.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[OceanMist]

The main thing I'm thinking right now is that I'm upset that what I said earlier in the thread was so misunderstood.

Let me clarify that I believe it's perfectly okay to ask for sex from a woman that you are attracted to, and it's perfectly okay to make the first move. Somebody has to make the first move or nothing will happen.

 

[OceanMist]

Fundamentally, a lot of the reason for debate here, if you want to call it that, is societal norms. As stupid and untrue as they may be, they are the default.

Societal norm/conception #1: men want to have sex earlier in a relationship than women do.
Societal norm/conception #2: women are more likely to be upset by an asking for sex than men.

Do you agree with these two points? Would you agree that in times of uncertainty and in times of potential offense, it is safest to default to societal norms?

Yes, those statements are very true. Don't let people try to convince you otherwise. I've found that when something sounds unfair, many people tend to tell you that the unfair thing doesn't exist. It's a defense mechanism.

I've agreed with all your posts on here. You sound like me talking. I appreciate your posts, you are very insightful and truthful.

 

[OceanMist]

Well I dont blame them necessarily. But I do wish society would cut me a freakin break and let a girl talk to me for once. I know people would tell me to "man up" but I have SAD for Gods sake. Its not that easy. I may be whining but Im sorry, Im pissed. Im tired of girls talking about it being hard yet they have bf and I dont have a damn thing.

I feel the exact same way. I know, I can't stand when people tell me to "man up." It hasn't helped me once.

The "man up" phrase is a very unfair thing to say. It's an enormous double standard. You can't tell a woman to "woman up" and ask a man out. That would be rude, right? But it seems it's perfectly okay to tell a man to "man up" in society.

As for your last sentence, I totally agree, and I'm in the same situation. It's like imagine having women never show an interest in you. Then you'd really be in the dumps.

 

[moon_x]

A woman being seen as a "slut" is the equivalent of a guy being seen as a "nice guy".

I dont understand what you mean here. Can you explain.

Women are raped, beaten, murdered, forced into prostitution, many times by the very men they loved. Women experience a lot of violence.

Telling girls not to dress like slut is just a protection warning, of course, they are free to wear whatever they want. But like you said, woman experience alot of violence because they not strong as a man physically.

So is all that our fault? Like, really? Women don't have to dress slutty to get raped either. Rape is all about power.

I know the point of the slutwalk, is that no one deserves to be raped even if they dress like a hooker.

However, celebrating dressing like hookers seems just plain stupid to me.
Slutwalk just gives people even more reasons to make fun of female rape victims and women in general.

Sure, a woman should be able to wear what she likes and not be raped. They shouldnt. But how does wearing slutty clothes and being proud, going to honestly help the situation? I mean, are rapist going to care? If anything, they laughing.

Its silly to focus on changing on how people think when you could go after the real menace -- the rapist.

If a woman wants to show a real stand, you dont call something a slutwalk, you give it a powerful name. and they have to be clear what they fighting for. the slutwalk was confusin because the people wernt sure what they really fighting for, one minuite they say its about woman being able to wear what they like and not be blamed for rape, next, its about expressing sexuality, and then another -- about making the word 'slut' sounds good.

that video already explain my opinion clearly. I dont have much to add. Because this is off-topic now, unrelated to nice guys, I think I will stop here.

 

[AGR]

Yes, Phocas, that is right on. This is what women are fighting for. There can be change. There is change all the time. Victims don't have to do the changing, the perpetrators do! We should focus on the abusers. They need to make the changes. They are in the wrong. Why all this focus on the victims? As a victim myself, it makes me incredibly sad and a bit disheartened that some people still place the blame on us. I suppose not all can have a change of heart, but we won't give up trying. The fight must go on.

Well the thing is that the perpetrators wont change or we dont have the power to make them change as we like,so people have to take precautions to try and not be a victim,but sometimes they can still be,just like when I am in a bad area I wont go out in expensive clothes,watches and etc,do I have the right to walk like that?Sure,but do you think thieves give a ****?no


On another note slutwalk was pointless,what they should have done was protest against women violence,instead we got some attention seeking people,walking naked or half naked,completely overshadowing the real problem.

 

[Pookah]

I'm actually not sure how many rapes are committed based on outfits. Probably much less than you'd think. Its date rape, rape at night, robbery turned into rape, raped for just being female in Africa etc.

Criminals, abnormal minds, men or women who get off on forcing sex. I would think if it is more of a power thing, a woman dressed conservatively would serve better for making them feel powerful.

I like talking about sex. I just don't get into particulars with random people. It should be kept private to a degree. But I am very curious and veracious for information about a variety of human behaviors.

 

[AGR]

I'm actually not sure how many rapes are committed based on outfits. Probably much less than you'd think. Its date rape, rape at night, robbery turned into rape, raped for just being female in Africa etc.

.

I know that,but my point still stands.

 

[moon_x]

I'm actually not sure how many rapes are committed based on outfits. Probably much less than you'd think. Its date rape, rape at night, robbery turned into rape, raped for just being female in Africa etc.

Thats the point that the slutwalk is pointless, because people can get rape for wearing whatever. The slutwalk main strike isnt really about rape. Its a confusing strike.

 

[Remus]

Once upon a time there was a fox. This fox desperately wanted some grapes, and every day he would go and sit outside the grocery store, looking longingly through the window at the sweet, juicy grapes on display in the produce section. He hoped that by sitting there nicely and politely, one of the store workers might spot him and bring him some grapes, but each day he wandered back to his foxhole hungry and disappointed.

One day, while the fox was sitting there in his usual spot, a coyote walked up to the store. He spotted the fox looking through the window, and followed his gaze to the bunches of grapes.

"Mmmm," thought the coyote "those do look rather good.", so he walked into the store. Once inside he found a store worker who was busily arranging her melon display, and coughed politely. The young woman turned around.

"My goodness," said the coyote "those are some impressive melons you have there." He winked. The woman raised an eyebrow in an "O RLY?" kind of way.

"Say," continued the coyote "I noticed you have quite a display of grapes there. You seem to have an awful lot of them. I don't suppose you could spare just a few for a hungry coyote?"

The woman looked at the grapes, and then back at the coyote. She considered his request for a moment, before reaching out and breaking off a small bunch of grapes.

"I suppose a talking coyote is worth a few grapes," she said, handing them to him. "Now shoo out of my store!".

The coyote took the grapes, flashed the woman a parting smile, and trotted out of the store. On his way out he passed the fox, who had seen everything that had just happened through the window, and was now sitting there with his mouth wide open in shock. The coyote was still a little puzzled as to why the fox was just sitting there, but he figured it must just be some weird fox-thing, and headed off home to enjoy his grapes.

The fox watched the coyote disappear down the street. "Stupid jerk coyotes!" he muttered to himself. "They always get whatever they want. Life's so easy for them. Everyone hates foxes!". Once the coyote was out of sight, he turned back to the window and continued gazing at the grapes.

The End.

Genius!

 

[theslowesthand]

I do like vintage clothes...so maybe it is time for me to look into vintage porn, lol

Ditto. I find it charming, and somewhat "emotional" - which it what most porn lacks these days (you know, the human, emotional element)

A lot of porn I have seen is very mechanical. Just fitting part a into slot b and c and d. Not very arousing, lol. I have to use my imagination to fill in the gaps

Try this for mechanical --> "f***machines" porn. This is probably my #1 choice of porn. There's no role-playing or false scenarios, just basic, raw machine-sex. Truth is beauty. And me being male, i can relate to machines better than women.
Yes, this may seem totally contradictory to what i said above! (as i have for #1 the "machanical", and maybe for #2 "charming" vintage porn. I guess "vintage-mechanical" would be my ultimate? hehe)

 

[Aletheia]

The fox watched the coyote disappear down the street. "Stupid jerk coyotes!" he muttered to himself. "They always get whatever they want. Life's so easy for them. Everyone hates foxes!"

Sheer genius.

 

[MaliceInWickedland]

Ive actually been told im too nice by some people before, like its a bad thing , a few of them even my own family members

Ditto. Well.. I either get told that I'm too nice or that I'm too cold. Both statements are plausible though. I'm a frozen human doormat who allows everyone to step all over her even though she tries so hard to keep everyone away from her.

 

[KiaKaha]

The last thing that I want to say about this is that in an ideal world, I think people should just try to be a little more considerate and understanding to one another. I think that people who are strong have a moral obligation to at least help the weak...not to support them, but to help them... because everybody is weak in someway, and everybody needs help at some point in their lives.

I think people are generally pretty selfish. Not necessarily intentionally, its just how we are wired. I think "nice" people should be appreciated, because those are the kinds of people who are more tolerant and have a drive to make things better for everyone.

Just my two cents. Moving on to other threads.