AvPD vs. SA

It all meshes together. Someone posted something by Abnormal Psych Center... where the only substantial difference there imo was SA want to connect with others, AVpD do not.

Frankly, I think it's similar. Some ppl see Avoident and clicks with them, because they avoid situations. Ppl with SA - avoid situations. Ppl with SA dont feel inadequete etc? I think very similar either way... and SA does NOT mean you have to have anxiety attacks... aka panic attacks. Stress IS anxiety.

ppl with either avoid to take their anxiety away short term. Or "non anxiety" as AvPD may say. SA leads to other things we cant be so rigid its not really one olr other imo I find mainly are in one group, and develop other issues. SA affects personality. How you react, behave, think about yourself, perceive others, etc.

The main difference from what I've read is anxiety symptoms yes, but ultimately it's like almost do the same things to avoid similar situations but slightly different reasons as have been mentioned here.

skins said: ↑

Its like comparing a migrane and a headache...AvPD being the migrane.

I don't need labels. When my anxiety is at its worst it feels worse than a migrane. A migrane I wish! When my anxiety is bad I avoid people. I don't need to put a label on it. I don't need to be branded with a personality type or disorder. I am complicated being you can't classify me into a label, it is unhelpful.

Anxiety is complicated, so I don't a doctor to pigeon hole what I am going through, it is was it is. At is simplest it is the flight v fight brought on by life's stressors. I agree with James on this. I don't find putting fancy lables on any of it useful. I like to keep it simple stupid, I have a better chance of beating it that way.

An relaxation of tense muscles and letting go of thoughts can help remarkeable.

awkwardamanda said: ↑

@JamesSmith: In case philly2bits didn't make it clear enough, I'll say it again. SA is an Anxiety Disorder. AvPD is a Personality Disorder. It's actually classed as an "anxious personality disorder." So while it is anxiety-related, it is not, in itself, merely anxiety. Anxiety comes in a variety of forms. It doesn't show itself the same way for everyone. Studying the similarities and differences between different types of anxiety and giving them labels probably helps psychologists and psychiatrists figure out how to deal with people with specific symtoms. It's unlikely they'll just treat someone who gets random panic attacks the exact same way they would treat somebody with OCD. And don't just assume that everyone with anxiety is born with it. That's a load of crap. You can be genetically predisposed to developing anxiety, sure. But I wouldn't believe for a minute that circumstance doesn't play a role. No way is someone who's been bullied, abused and rejected their whole life going to have the same chance at developing psychological problems as someone who has had everything go right for them in life. Just because it happens to be a certain way for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else.

I already know that anxiety is both a combination of nature and nurture. I believe we are born with the anxiety and it can be worsened by the events that happen in our life. So yes, bullying, abuse, rejection can all play a role in whether someone has an anxiety disorder.

I'm not sure why you are saying I'm wrong about AVPD. You make it abundantly clear in your post that AVPD is an anixety-personality disorder which means I was right, it's an anxiety disorder. And tell me this, what person who has an anxiety disorder doesn't have a personality disorder? None. If you have an anxiety disorder than your personality will be out of whack too. SAD and AVPD are the same thing, they both are anxiety disorders, the person's life is messed up from the anxiety they have. This is exactly what i was saying, you are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The one problem here is that people have anxiety, and the sufferer needs to find some way to relax in order to get rid of the anxiety. Anxiety comes in a variety of forms? Well there are different kinds of phobias, but all these phobias are.....phobias aka anxiety. Hence, there is our problem in one word....anxiety.

vj288 said: ↑

If they are the same thing, why are they recognized as different things? I find it odd that psychologist would waste paper by putting the same disorder in the DSM-IV twice.

It's not the SAME disorder. Same as in EXACTLY. But psychologists DO waste paper =) And classify things that may be very similar but have some difference as different things.That difference can be minute. Also... psychologists are still learning and understanding too. 10 years ago, SAD for example wasn't looked upon as seriously as it is now. It was lumped into other categories. I think now psych's being very thorough.

the way I see it, Social Anxiety is one of many symptoms of AvPD

you can have Social Anxiety and not have AvPD

you can have AvPD and not have much Social Anxiety

Anxiety is complicated, and I don't need doctors lables to futher complicated things with labels. My anxiety is what it is. Keep it simple stupid, I have a better chance of beating it that way. At its most simple my anxiety is the flight or fight response brought on by life's stressors.

When my anxiety is bad it is worse than a migrane. Migrane I wish! Migranes don't stop me eating and sleeping. When my anxiety is bad I avoid people and fearful situations. I have a low opinion of myself and think others don't like me- that is just low self esteem not a pyscho babble label. I don't need a million labels to explain this, I find it unhelpful. You could quickly start to have worrying thoughts about the labels themselves, and descned into hypochondria. Been there, done that. I like nature- Eugene Bueler can go shove his shizoid personality disorder.

I agree with James these coniditons are a broad spectrum under the anxiety umbrella, and they can be made more complicated than they need to be.

coyote said: ↑

the way I see it, Social Anxiety is one of many symptoms of AvPD

you can have Social Anxiety and not have AvPD

you can have AvPD and not have much Social Anxiety

There. Or you can have SA and some AvPD. Etc. I guarantee after living life long enough with any type of anxiety disorder or personality disorder, other disorders come clinging like on velcro. I have OCD with my SAD. Not everyone has OCD with SAD or what type/and different levels etc. or whatever else.

vj288 said: ↑

If they are the same thing, why are they recognized as different things? I find it odd that psychologist would waste paper by putting the same disorder in the DSM-IV twice.

The medical business is like any other business, they are out to make money. If they can give you all these fancy diagnoses then they can make you pay them more for medication and any other kind of help they can offer you. Think about it this way, if they just told you need to learn to relax how would they make any money off of you? They can get away with this because so many people are hurting and depressed and are desperate for a way to get rid of the anxiety. For example, if you watch late night tv you'll see these ads about how they have these steps for overcoming anxiety if you just give them your credit card information, lol.

You'd find it odd that a psychologist would waste paper by putting the same disorder twice? Think about how much money they're getting just by you talking to him/her. They aren't wasting their time, they are making money off of you. Just because a person has a degree in psychology doesn't mean they are there to help you 100%. They are mainly "helping" you so they can make money. That's why they got that degree in the first place, to make money.

vj288 said: ↑

DSM-IV

Might be a good name for shoot em up computer game.

I'm saying the main reason doctors diagnose these Avoidant disorders are to make money, not the only reason. I've just noticed that in the medical field, the anxiety section is messed up because so many people don't understand what anxiety is or how to treat it. Obviously, if a doctor is telling you to wrap a broken arm in a cast, you should do it, and the doctor is not saying that just so they can make money, they are saying that because it's in the patient's best interest. In most cases, doctors are very bright and beneficial and helpful. It's just the anxiety, so many people, not just doctors, just don't understand anxiety disorders. From personal experience, I think medication is their main money-making scheme with anxiety disorders. I just think if you are trying to get rid of anxiety, the internet is a better bet than going to a psychologist or doctor. This is just my opinion.

Anxiety wasn't even an issue until the 20th century. It was always known as this thing people are just supposed to deal with. I am proud, though, that people are making a ton of progress with books, websites, and material for us to read about anxiety and it's effects on us. Society has made huge progress in the last 50 years with coming to understand the difficulty of overcoming anxiety and the details of it and labeling it as a disorder and a serious problem. If we lived in the 1800's we would have been screwed.

vj288 said: ↑

I still don't agree with the fact that psychiatrist diagnose mainly for money, but we can disagree on that point. While I agree many people don't have a great idea of what anxiety or anxiety (or personality) disorders are, but I think it's safe to say people who go to study it for 8 years of college know what they are talking about and what to look for. I'll say again this stuff has been researched rigorously and should be taken seriously. As you have said the books and internet can be very helpful for a lot of people, which is good and an example of this. But these psychiatrist know what they are doing (well some of them) and can help as well through therapy.

I think the money making aspect of anxiety is a latent consequence. It was not the original purpose, but someone took the quick fix idea and ran with it. Medication has been shown to help many disorders, but obviously it is a business and used to make money as well.I wouldn't blame the psychiatrist though.

First, let me make it clear I'm not talking about you, but just because someone goes to college doesn't mean they know what they are talking about and what to look for with something like an anxiety disorder. I know a few people that have college degrees and let's say they aren't exactly the brightest people. Plus, have you ever watched Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader? There are people on there with college degrees that miss the easiest questions consistently. And I hate to play this card, but many people who are diagnosing the anxiety disorders don't have anxiety disorders. That's like someone who has never been drunk before telling me what it's like to be hammered.

As for the money-making thing, you're right, we'll just have to disagree. I believe that every business puts money-making as a top priority. It's how they keep the business going, so I understand. They got families to feed, it makes sense. There's nothing wrong with making money off of people the way they are doing it, it's just I think we should help ourselves with a thing like anxiety on our own.

vj288 said: ↑

We are also not talking about the few people you know who have college degrees and aren't that bright, or the contestants on are you smarter than a fifth grader.

You are kind of tossing away my point, there. My point was that you can't always be sure that a person with a degree knows what they are talking about, no matter what their profession may be. And I was using proof that I know people like that.

JamesSmith said: ↑

First, let me make it clear I'm not talking about you, but just because someone goes to college doesn't mean they know what they are talking about and what to look for with something like an anxiety disorder. I know a few people that have college degrees and let's say they aren't exactly the brightest people. Plus, have you ever watched Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader? There are people on there with college degrees that miss the easiest questions consistently. And I hate to play this card, but many people who are diagnosing the anxiety disorders don't have anxiety disorders. That's like someone who has never been drunk before telling me what it's like to be hammered.

As for the money-making thing, you're right, we'll just have to disagree. I believe that every business puts money-making as a top priority. It's how they keep the business going, so I understand. They got families to feed, it makes sense. There's nothing wrong with making money off of people the way they are doing it, it's just I think we should help ourselves with a thing like anxiety on our own.

Many people can't on their own. Thus why many are here... seeking help takes courage, not all psychs are greedy. Nor should only seek that help. Social support and assistance is great help, we got to be our own best advocates and knowledge seekers.

"people diagnosing anxiety disorders don't have anxiety disorders". fallacious argument there and generalization, frankly, some probably may, I could easily go into psychology I was a major before I switched, I have SAD if I spent the time and started focusing on it and made diagnoses... yeah...

YES - 95% probably dont have what they diagnose or study. But that doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about, or genuinely care or want to help. Observation, listening, data, people, tests.

Someone understanding who's been there is best help I agree, support groups, etc.

Also generalizing ppl based off a TV show is not the best sample either. Granted, many ppl with college degrees are idiots, and many doctors are idiots. Or perhaps smart, but not good at their job for various reasons. I wouldnt lump all in one category though. WHICH sounds liek you are saying, that's all. Maybe aren't, we can agree not everyone is "good" at their profession.

Deus_Ex_Lemur said: ↑

Someone understanding who's been there is best help I agree, support groups, etc.

Also generalizing ppl based off a TV show is not the best sample either. Granted, many ppl with college degrees are idiots, and many doctors are idiots. Or perhaps smart, but not good at their job for various reasons. I wouldnt lump all in one category though. WHICH sounds liek you are saying, that's all. Maybe aren't, we can agree not everyone is "good" at their profession.

I'm not saying all psychiatrists don't know what they are talking about. I'm not lumping them into one category. I'm just saying I think a lot of them don't understand anxiety or how to get rid of anxiety.

vj288 said: ↑

Ok, well are you smarter than a fifth grader is designed to make smart people look stupid. The questions are not things most people think of on a regular basis unless it's their specialty. If someone majored in engineering 4th grade history is of no importance to them, and they have no reason to remember it. All the questions on that show are easy to someone watching, but don't try to tell me you get every question correct when you watch. I know I don't. And as for your friends, what did they major in? Are they knowledgeable of that subject? Do they have a job in that field that requires them to be knowledgeable? Graduating college is not difficult, you're right, but you will have difficulty maintaining a job if you didn't learn anything while there. Psychologist have to go to 8 years, which is a long time, but if they know nothing about psychology they will never be able to maintain a job in the psychology field. It's not like college degree=job.

Yeah, that's a good point. The show is designed to make people look stupid. It's just when I watch it I couldn't believe some of the questions they would get wrong.

One of my friends is working in a brewery as a stocker, and the other got bailed out by his dad and is working a desk job as assistant manager for some phone company. So far, their degrees have got them nowhere.

Yes, maintaining a job is difficult. I think you misunderstood me, by no means am I saying psychologists don't deserve to be where they are. I'm just skeptical about the anxiety field in psychology.

I really think labeling a group of symptoms hurts more than it helps. It's extremely restrictive and limiting to issues that are very complex. And unfortunately it does set up medication as a primary treatment. I might be growing more cynical with age, but its amazing how as soon as they come up with a new name for a disorder, they already have the drug ready to treat it. You have to ask where is some of the motivation for the labeling coming from? The drug companies have more power than many people realize.

There is some basic benefit of knowing groups of similar symptoms if you have limited knowledge, but if doctors are going to school for 8 years, its seems rather silly to me for them to try to categorize people into such basic categories.

JamesSmith said: ↑

I already know that anxiety is both a combination of nature and nurture. I believe we are born with the anxiety and it can be worsened by the events that happen in our life. So yes, bullying, abuse, rejection can all play a role in whether someone has an anxiety disorder.

I'm glad you could acknowledge that outside factors play a role, but I still disagree that people with anxiety are born with it. It may not develop until much later in life.

JamesSmith said:

I'm not sure why you are saying I'm wrong about AVPD. You make it abundantly clear in your post that AVPD is an anixety-personality disorder which means I was right, it's an anxiety disorder.

No. I said it was an "anxious personality disorder," not an "anxiety personality disorder." Personality disorders are classified as either "odd," "dramatic," "anxious," or unspecified. These words are labels for what they call "clusters" of personality disorders. The anxious personality disorders, which include avoidant, obsessive-compulsive, and dependent personality disorders, all involve some element of anxiety, however, they are not in and of themselves considered anxiety disorders.

JamesSmith said:

And tell me this, what person who has an anxiety disorder doesn't have a personality disorder? None.

[citation needed] I highly doubt that everybody with an anxiety disorder also has a personality disorder. Having one does not imply the other.

JamesSmith said:

If you have an anxiety disorder than your personality will be out of whack too.

There is more to it than simply one's personality being "out of whack." There are specific criteria one must meet in order to be diagnosed with an anxiety disorder or a personality disorder. Please read for further information:
Anxiety disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JamesSmith said:

SAD and AVPD are the same thing, they both are anxiety disorders, the person's life is messed up from the anxiety they have.

No. SAD is an anxiety disorder and AvPD is a personality disorder. There is some debate about this, but for the time being, they are classed as separate disorders, and not both anxiety disorders. It is possible to be diagnosed with either one or both.

JamesSmith said:

This is exactly what i was saying, you are making this more complicated than it needs to be.

I'm not making it more complicated. I'm just trying to explain the way psychologists and psychiatrists have classed different disorders. They're the professionals and I don't think any of us are really in a position to say whether or not they've made things too complicated.

JamesSmith said:

The one problem here is that people have anxiety, and the sufferer needs to find some way to relax in order to get rid of the anxiety.

Relaxation alone isn't going to solve the issue of brain chemistry. Might help, but it's only gonna do so much. Probably depends a lot on the individual and what type of anxiety they're experiencing.

JamesSmith said:

Anxiety comes in a variety of forms? Well there are different kinds of phobias, but all these phobias are.....phobias aka anxiety. Hence, there is our problem in one word....anxiety.

And phobias are only a subset of anxiety disorders.

JamesSmith said: ↑

The medical business is like any other business, they are out to make money. If they can give you all these fancy diagnoses then they can make you pay them more for medication and any other kind of help they can offer you. Think about it this way, if they just told you need to learn to relax how would they make any money off of you? They can get away with this because so many people are hurting and depressed and are desperate for a way to get rid of the anxiety. For example, if you watch late night tv you'll see these ads about how they have these steps for overcoming anxiety if you just give them your credit card information, lol.

The fact that they're making money doesn't automatically make it a scam. Not that infomercials are always trustworthy, but that's not the same thing as paying a therapist to help you work through your problems.

JamesSmith said:

You'd find it odd that a psychologist would waste paper by putting the same disorder twice? Think about how much money they're getting just by you talking to him/her. They aren't wasting their time, they are making money off of you. Just because a person has a degree in psychology doesn't mean they are there to help you 100%. They are mainly "helping" you so they can make money. That's why they got that degree in the first place, to make money.

Chances are, they chose that degree so that they could make money doing something they're interested in and passionate about. Sure, there are probably some who don't care as much as we'd like them to, but that isn't true of all of them. In any profession, there are going to be people who are good at their job and others who aren't cut out for it. But there are doctors and psychologists out there who genuinely do want to help people.

JamesSmith said: ↑

I'm saying the main reason doctors diagnose these Avoidant disorders are to make money, not the only reason. I've just noticed that in the medical field, the anxiety section is messed up because so many people don't understand what anxiety is or how to treat it. Obviously, if a doctor is telling you to wrap a broken arm in a cast, you should do it, and the doctor is not saying that just so they can make money, they are saying that because it's in the patient's best interest. In most cases, doctors are very bright and beneficial and helpful. It's just the anxiety, so many people, not just doctors, just don't understand anxiety disorders. From personal experience, I think medication is their main money-making scheme with anxiety disorders. I just think if you are trying to get rid of anxiety, the internet is a better bet than going to a psychologist or doctor. This is just my opinion.

I really don't think they've invented this or any other disorder just as a way to make money if they don't believe it is a legitimate disorder. I doubt they all understand what it truly feels like, but there are probably some who are more empathetic than others. Keep in mind that psychologists can't prescribe medication so they really aren't making any money off drugs. If you prefer to seek treatment solely by reading articles online and that works for you, then great. The internet can be a helpful tool but that alone isn't going to work for everyone. Don't forget that if these professionals hadn't put so much effort into studying the mental health issues of real people, we wouldn't have all of this information available on the internet.

JamesSmith said:

Anxiety wasn't even an issue until the 20th century. It was always known as this thing people are just supposed to deal with. I am proud, though, that people are making a ton of progress with books, websites, and material for us to read about anxiety and it's effects on us. Society has made huge progress in the last 50 years with coming to understand the difficulty of overcoming anxiety and the details of it and labeling it as a disorder and a serious problem. If we lived in the 1800's we would have been screwed.

A lot of what we now know about medicine was not well understood back then.

JamesSmith said: ↑

You are kind of tossing away my point, there. My point was that you can't always be sure that a person with a degree knows what they are talking about, no matter what their profession may be. And I was using proof that I know people like that.

Yes, but it's more likely that a person with a degree will be knowledgeable in their particular field.

JamesSmith said: ↑

Yeah, that's a good point. The show is designed to make people look stupid. It's just when I watch it I couldn't believe some of the questions they would get wrong.

One of my friends is working in a brewery as a stocker, and the other got bailed out by his dad and is working a desk job as assistant manager for some phone company. So far, their degrees have got them nowhere.

Yes, maintaining a job is difficult. I think you misunderstood me, by no means am I saying psychologists don't deserve to be where they are. I'm just skeptical about the anxiety field in psychology.

We get that you're a skeptic. Nobody's forcing you to go to a psychologist or a psychiatrist. That's fine. That's your choice. Ya know what? I haven't seen one either. I might someday. I'm not ready for that at this point in time, but I may give it a chance and certainly won't discredit what it is they do without seeing for myself. I'm only trying to explain to you that while there is still much to be learned, the field isn't really the hoax you seem to think it is.

Interstingly enough when we go to a doctor with a problem we want to know what the problem is!

Being diagnosed with AvPD answered a 33 year year old question, to which I had no answer.

Not mean to upset anyone just a comment.
How can people ASSUME that they have SA or AvPD if they haven't been diagnosed, because end of the day it's just a assumption.

And you may be digruntled with a pych, because they may not agree with your internet diagnoses doesn't mean their wrong.

I get irriated by comments of what it's like to live with SA or Avoidance, when for all we know you may have something else then all of a sudden the lines get blured between SA and AvPD.

hmm, interesting thread.

I took some googling/research online for both, and came to a conclusion that even experts seem to be 'quarrelling' or 'still discussing' about whether SA and AvPD are one and the same or two different things.. So if even experts can't agree, how could we? (So that's why I haven't participated in this thread before.)

I understand both points of view: sometimes it's good to find a diagnosis so you can find help too. (Especially if there is good help available, ideally in natural ways/counselling...)

On the other hand, I also agree that sometimes too much labelling and research doesn't really 'help' - it can only make one more concerned or paranoid about things... So it really depends on that, I guess: is the label/diagnosis helpful or not, how do you see it...? Things can be 'mild' or 'worse' (or changing), some people can deal by themselves or with help of books/internet, some need more help...

Some people may just think 'oh I have sa/avpd, so everything is impossible' or worse... ? (which isn't really constructive to think...) Or they might see how others with sa/avpd are really even way worse off, and this can be a cause of worry too... (Like, 'is that what's waiting for me too?' etc.)
Some of these thoughts can be quite irrational too... (and need to be challenged)

I agree with Darryl that if your problems are big being diagnosed by someone experienced/knowledgeable is better than just researching and worrying about it.
And GOBlue said it well that a diagnosis/label may be needed for people to get counselling/medical help etc.

For people with mild SA/AvpD reading books like 'Feel the Fear and Do It' or such may be better - actually it was more helpful to me in the past than all this researching and worrying with labels etc.
We are different and different things may work for us.

A lot of medicine and pharmacy is out there to make money yup. Some people really genuinely want to help, and maybe just don't know about the more natural means like nutrition and healthy lifestyle or CBT etc. CBT or such are also more time-intensive, so if the doctor is in a hurry and has too many patients, of course it's easier to just prescribe meds. Some people also don't want long-term investment of time and energy into own health, and just want 'to feel better now'. (Even people who are told about problematic aspects of side-effects etc.)

That's why prevention is so important. I think good anti-sa/avpd programs could be very helpful to people from kindergarten up. And to mums/dads before having kids etc. A lot of it has to do with communication and mood control, respect, learning to relax etc. Since situations in the world/economic crisis etc have been often stressful, and number of violence in families etc was said to be on the rise, we can assume there will be more people with sa/avpd or other problems too.

In many places way of living is more stressful now than 100 years ago. Old ladies report how 'life was difficult, there was a lot of physical work, but it was also easier' - most people didn't have much and didn't need that much either.. we have more things and luxury now but also the jobs and stress of modern life... sometimes not enough physical movement... that has to show somewhere... Also the computers, they didn't exist until quite recently.. (and too much time on them causes/worsens depression too)

Partly, I do think that the bubble of mental health diseases is 'manufactured' and sometimes over-diagnosed too.. (not just sa, also bipolar or ADD etc) Some people may be just plain miserable or 'emotional'/temperamental.. and nowadays there are labels for everything.. Again, sometimes the labels can be REALLY helpful!! Sometimes not so..

Okay, enough of my rambling.. 🙂 Just know that DSM criteria change, health criteria change, how people have treated diseases or conditions changes... Even some psychologists and psychiatrists are opening up to other ways of dealing with things... (and maybe going to seminars on herbs and supplements or such)

I guess if you have either or both, it's not really that important (unless it really interferes with your life) the most important thing is to DO SOMETHING. Either research, read books, do programs, self-coach, tweak nutrition and change lifestyle, challenege yourself, or see someone, or a few possibly helpful people, find a support system etc... (or a combination of these)

Avoiding it without changing life/thought habits is probably not going to make it go away...(?) (Sometimes possibly even over-researching or 'nitpicking'/OCD-ing or hyperfocusing about some aspects of a diagnosis or condition can mean falling into 'analysis paralysis' trap or even kinda quarrelling about something or trying to define it can become 'avoidance' - and I mean this in the kindest possible way - yes, been guilty of that too! And still have had problems with this.. When you think 'if I just could get a proper diagnosis/label/definition, all would be better' - actually, that's where the real work starts, but you can start before that too, and pick what is helpful, omit what isn't.. you can get a lot done even if you don't know the 'official diagnosis' yet.. Since sa & avpd overlap so much, it is logical, that some things can be helpful to both, so you can find these and work on them...?)

I think avpd is like say your running down the block and see someone else coming from the opposite side. Do you turn around or do you keep running past the person? Well I would pretend to stretch and then go a different route to look natural 🙂