Anyone afraid of HELL?

[forgetit]

brainwash!

Heaven and hell are nothing but brainwashing . . . very clever ways to keep the masses under control.

 

[Reholla]

ok this whole KNOWING if heaven and hell exists is stupid.

Pretty sure no body here can say theyve experienced heaven/hell or have NOT experienced heaven/hell. Bottom line: we're never going to know for sure until after we're dead. So quit acting like you are all knowing and know for sure they dont exist.

Sorry if thats kinda harsh, but its pretty silly to act like you know when you know just as well as the next person does. Arguing about something we're never going to know until after we're dead is pointless.

I am a Christian so I believe there will be an eternal life: either good or bad. (heaven or hell)...but I am not going to say that I know this for sure. Yea I believe there will be, but i'm not going to tell some one I KNOW because I've never been there.

Please quit arguing about it and setting up things for people to be offended by./

 

[LA-girl]

Hi Reholla!

I don't know who you were accusing here.. However if you included me in that group, I just had to say that I have never claimed to say that I know hell exist. I have so many many times said exactly what you are saying, that I believe and that nobody knows for sure before we die.

However when jt says:

i wish i could believe that! I have fallen from god and need to get back to him. I only wish I was afraid of hell as u!

For me that was like he was begging someone in here to convince (Not getting proofs, cause that is impossible) him that hell was real in order for him to get his faith back. He pledged someone to remind him what he should be saved from.

I don't think it would be correct for me to ignore his request.

Anyway, have you seen this movie-clip?
I hope not any of you judge me for putting that out before you have seen it. Also I did not force anyone to watch it either, and I also pointed out where people could start to watch this man's story and yet be spared for the part about hell.
For me it was a sad story with a beautiful ending :lol: It really touched me and that was the reason why I put it out here and not just as a pm to jt....

Maybe you did'nt accuse me Reholla, but I have asked you several times if you did and you did not respond...If I was wrong then you can ignore this reply :roll:

 

[nedkelly]

I think some of us are going to have to agree to disagree ...on this subject.

 

[Reholla]

Hi LA girl!! I in no way intended for that to be directed towards you. I guess it said I was online but I wasnt until just now when I saw your post.

It was more a generic reference to the fact that we've been discussing...sometimes more like arguing over this a while. And while it's interesting to hear others' opinions on the subjects. I just think its doing more harm than good- for both "sides"


I have a strong opinion on this, and its good to discuss this subject, I was just saying how its turning into an unhealthy discussion when people (not you) but others act like they "KNOW" and are so sure hell doesnt exist.

I think it is good that you responded to the person who was looking for an answer.
I in no way wanted you to feel as though I was inferring that you were the cause of this. Sorry again if thats the way it came across.

 

[cLavain]

You're right, Reholla, we don't know. But when some people so casually threaten other people with eternal damnation, don't you agree the burden of proof lies with the believers, not the skeptics?

The idea of a painfilled Hell can only be bad for already sensitive people, and so is the notion of a judging god. That's what I'm talking about, that's what Zipper was talking about (at least prior to this thread), and that's what Zosima was talking about before he got banned.

I'm just sick of being portrayed as the bad guy for standing up to old superstitions that make people feel even more guilty and ashamed!

If people want to believe that they may go to Hell when they die, then I guess I can't stop them, but at least I can point out that there is no good reason to believe that Hell exists.

 

[LA-girl]

Zipper:
As you can see I have started to post a few threads in here, because all my attempts to answer people on new threads I made got locked. However you did post on my thread so I hope it is ok for me to post on yours. I think you understand that everyone is in title to express their views and defend themselves or their beliefs.

Reholla:
Thank you for responding! Those names that appear on the list to be online are a bit deceiving. Anyway I’m glad to hear that I got your message wrong and that it was not directed to me… So thank you for clearing that up!! :lol:

cLavain:

First of all I have to say I was not the first person to bring up this whole subject. I don’t know if Zipper was the first one, but as I see it he was not a Christian. So when people bring up a subject that involves hell, do you really expect us Christians in here to just ignore the whole subject and not be able to warn you about what we believe is the reality after we die?

Don’t you think that if it is true what we christians believe, that it is much better to be warned about it now, before it might be too late. We are just presenting to you a free gift in Jesus for escaping the reality of hell. Not just to be saved from hell, but to be allowed to enter heaven.

Lets say we don’t know for sure about the reality of hell. However a lot of people are convinced about it. The movie-clip I put out here where 5 former non-believers sharing their storys about their near-death/ death experiences, where they claimed to have felt hell/heaven and started to believe in Jesus. And there are lots of similar storys out there.

So let’s say you were saved and started to believe and follow Jesus and then you died. In other words:

You die as a Christian:

Alt.1 There is no heaven or hell.
Do you think your life would have been a waste just because you believed in him and wanted to follow him? I don’t think so… In my opinion it is just the opposite. Your life gets richer when you have Jesus in your heart.

Alt 2. You discover that your conviction was correct: heaven and hell do exist!
Then you are saved from this terrible place because you decided to accept his free gift of salvation. You are not only spared from hell. but you get to enter heaven. Heaven according to the Bible is such a wonderful place filled with only love and goodness, and total lack of evil!

Then we have the other alternative:

You die an atheist, or non-believer in Christ.

Alt.1: You’re dead spiritual and physical, there is no heaven and no hell.
Ok, nothing happens.

Alt.2: You die and discover that there is a real heaven and hell.
According to the Bible heaven and hell is forever. You can only escape heaven and hell if you admit that you are a sinner and let Jesus into your life. We can only imagine to some degree how terrible that place would be like. A place without the presence of God, no love, no hope. Only evil is left…. Total lack of everything that is good….

Let me try to explain it with this quote:

“Think of natural disasters such as Hurricane Katrina that caused the city of New Orleans to be hopelessly flooded so that thousands were stranded and many lost their lives. How unthinkable it would have been had the city known about the impending disaster and not warned the people to evacuate the city. How tragic it was for those who could have left but failed to heed the repeated warning. How much greater the tragedy not to let people know about the warning that God's Word has clearly given for all to flee from the wrath of hell to come.

C.S. Lewis (Author of Chronicles of Narnia) wrote, "There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove from Christianity than Hell … but it has the full support of Scripture and specifically of Jesus' very own words." In fact, Jesus talked more about hell than he did about heaven. He said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

It's not that God sends us to hell but that we send ourselves there when we don't heed God's warning and receive his forgiveness for all our sins and his gift of eternal life.

 

[cLavain]

Hi there, LA-girl,

Your analysis (which is called Pascal's wager, btw) has one major flaw. The choice is not, as you assume, between christianity and atheism alone. There is more than one possible religion!

Let's add Islam to the calculation. That alone reduces your chance to 50:50, right?

In fact, not only are there quite a few religions around the world, and yes, their followers are just as certain of their beliefs as you are, but how can we know that the true religion isn't something that hasn't been discovered yet? There's an infinite number of possible religions with different versions of hell and heaven and different criteria for who is saved and who is not.

Your chance of picking the correct one is now one in infinity!

How do you know you have chosen the right one?

You can't.

And many of these possible religions might let non-believers into heaven, thus increasing the chance that atheism might work out after all.

 

[LA-girl]

cLavain wrote:

Your analysis (which is called Pascal's wager, btw)

Really? That analysis already exists? Darn, It took me half an hour to come up with that!! 8O Well well, no harm in using my own brain cells then... :wink: :wink:

My answer to your other comment would be that almost all other religions requiers you to DO deeds, works etc in order to enter heaven. Christianity is a DONE religion. Since all are sinners and not derserves to enter heaven God sent his son Jesus to pay the price for our sins. And if we truly admit that we are sinners and need Jesus in our life and believe in him, he will help come into our heart and help us do become better people. Like I said it is a free gift for everyone to accept because God loved us so much.
Also Christianity is the world's biggest religion, with about 2.1 billion followers worldwide.


Here are some links that may explain these things better than me:
(If you have questions conserning these sites please ask the author who wrote them)

http://www.bible.ca/b-christianity-world-religions.htm
http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp060.asp
http://www.truthnet.org/Christianity/Whyjesus/

 

[cLavain]

Yes, it seems you're as smart as Blaise Pascal!

Here's a link to it and several objections:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

As was pointed out in another thread, it's not a free gift as long as the threat of Hell is there. It's blackmail!

If 2.1 billion people are Christians, then about 4 billion are not Christians. But it doesn't really matter. 2.1 billion people may be right, or 2.1 billion people may be wrong. The number of followers doesn't prove anything in itself.

 

[Reholla]

cLavain:

Even though I agree Pascals wager has flaws, he brings up a point that is agreed upon by athiests and christians both:....Believing in God can't be based upon REASON alone. So I will probably never be able to understand how atheists can be so sure there is no God. To believe something for sure doesnt exist, you have to be familiar with what the idea is about, in other words know the nature of God, and His characteristics. The God we are talking about is unmeasureable, and there's not a way to statistically prove or disprove His existence.

I dont really like the idea of believing in something because it is the best "wager" or outcome. I think you should believe in it because you believer with your heart that it is the truth. Pascals wager doesnt help athiests see anything...if it does anything at all it just confirms what Christians already believe.

I dont like the idea of gambling with a belief thats so important. But you can't prove God's existence when He is much bigger than anything we could measure or think up ourselves

 

[Mary]

Hello everyone! I am not here to fight w/anyone about anything I only wish to say what I personally believe. Because of the experiences I have had in my life, I believe in God. Because after praying and seeking Him, He has answered me and I have felt His presence in my life and in my heart.
There are so many religions out there and a lot of them make a lot of good points and some may ask, how do you know yours is the "right one?"
And in my personal experience I went to different churches and experienced different religions for myself because I truly desired to know God and feel Him in my life. For me the only church out of them all that I went to and felt God's presence in a powerful way was one where they preached the bible and Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. I did not feel God's presence anywhere else, that is why I am a christian. That is not to offend anyone or to say that you can't feel God anywhere else, of course not! God can touch you anywhere He so pleases! I am only saying my personal experience. I am only saying why I believe what I do. It wasn't about which religion made more sense to me or seemed better than the other's it was about where I met God and where I have continued to grow and recieve the help I need and for me that was a christian church.
I don't think many people will believe in God if they don't allready w/out ever having had a personal experience w/Him. And for that to happen you need to be sincere and pray and God WILL touch you and show you HIS great love for you. I can't tell you when it will happen but I know that it will happen.
He loves us all even those who don't love HIM.

 

[cLavain]

Reholla:

You keep mixing up the possibility of a creator with Christianity, as if the two conecepts are somehow undeniably linked. They are not. There could very well be a god (or gods, or aliens from another universe for that matter) that created our universe and that has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible. Actually, considering the fact (which you admitted) that there is no way to measure whether the Bible is the real deal, then all it amounts to is guesswork. I have already admitted that we can't know how the universe was created (yet), but what makes you so sure Christianity has anything to do with it?

But you can't prove God's existence when He is much bigger than anything we could measure or think up ourselves

Do you see how you just defined God in a way that makes it impossible to disprove? By doing that, you have made sure that no lack of actual evidence will ever worry you. It's much the same thing with the expression "I believe in my heart". Bypass rationality by elevating a comforting wish/hope to final and unassailable evidence. It will remain an enigma to me how otherwise intelligent people like yourself can place absolute trust in a gut feeling, however strong. Psychologists will tell you that the human mind is prone to fallacious thinking. Admittedly, the rational explanation for something is seldom as exciting as the supernatural one, but maybe - just maybe - a bit more likely..?

 

[Quixote]

Reholla:

You keep mixing up the possibility of a creator with Christianity, as if the two conecepts are somehow undeniably linked. They are not. There could very well be a god (or gods, or aliens from another universe for that matter) that created our universe and that has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible. Actually, considering the fact (which you admitted) that there is no way to measure whether the Bible is the real deal, then all it amounts to is guesswork. I have already admitted that we can't know how the universe was created (yet), but what makes you so sure Christianity has anything to do with it?

But you can't prove God's existence when He is much bigger than anything we could measure or think up ourselves

Do you see how you just defined God in a way that makes it impossible to disprove? By doing that, you have made sure that no lack of actual evidence will ever worry you. It's much the same thing with the expression "I believe in my heart". Bypass rationality by elevating a comforting wish/hope to final and unassailable evidence. It will remain an enigma to me how otherwise intelligent people like yourself can place absolute trust in a gut feeling, however strong. Psychologists will tell you that the human mind is prone to fallacious thinking. Admittedly, the rational explanation for something is seldom as exciting as the supernatural one, but maybe - just maybe - a bit more likely..?

I was going to write something like this myself, but you did it so well that I have not much to add. I completely agree.
However, I am not very hopeful that there is much hope of succeding in convincing anybody. Good arguments are effective only when the people to whom they are directed are able to understand them and reply accordingly.
It seems to me that most believers are perfectly able to make use of a superficial, formal, logic, based on the literal meaning of words, but they mostly fail to seriously try to grasp the actual concepts that are being expressed by those words. They focus on the words, the literal sentences, and try to disprove them not in their deeper meaning, but in their formal expression.
Here is an example:

Struggling Reasonable Person: If A equals B, and B equals C, than A equals C.

Religious Person: Why does A have to equal B anyway? How do you know. Prove it! And what about D, what if there is a D!! How can you be so arrogant as to think all these letters are just like you want them to be! Besides, God created the alphabet for mankind to express many different thoughts, which proves every letter can be different.

 

[LA-girl]

****

 

[Reholla]

Struggling Reasonable Person: If A equals B, and B equals C, than A equals C.

Religious Person: Why does A have to equal B anyway? How do you know. Prove it! And what about D, what if there is a D!! How can you be so arrogant as to think all these letters are just like you want them to be! Besides, God created the alphabet for mankind to express many different thoughts, which proves every letter can be different.

Quixote: I appreciate the point you made, but I just think its funny, because I , and im sure others would agree, that a lot of athiests do the same.... I honestly see it as these two roles or whatever being flipped. And I love how you added "reasonable" into the struggling person part...as if religous people arent? Anyway, that comment aside, non believers also use circulum lacution and fancy words to distract and get away from the point. They could say "well you cant prove that." blah blah...it can go on forever with that response.

One of you mentioned something about psychology...I learned something and its that the human mind forms beliefs first...and then when we observe something in nature, something in general, we attribute it to that belief. In other words, youre not going to change your beliefs to what you observe, youre going to make what you observe fit what you believe. This is really true and I brought it up b/c it had a lot to do with this. And maybe Christians do this, but I know and have seen atheists do this as well. Just something i thought was interesting..

But bottom line: we're both in search of truth. I believe what I believe because I think it's "right." I dont see how the earth could be made without a special purpose, and with a lot of thought and effort by an outside Force. I'm not trying to trick you...if thats what you accused christians of doing with the whole "religous person" vs. "struggling reasonable person"... I am honestly trying to tell you my beliefs...I think we can both say we are in search of the "truth" but thats a relative term.

 

[Remus]

Hi everyone,

I'm back !! 8)

I must say, I'm still a little unsure as to why I was ever banned in the first place, but thank you very much Chilling_Echo for unbanning me !

Love to you all,

Zosima.

you were constanly warned about your posts in the christain thread, we received complaints too

I even talked with you on this

 

[Remus]

you were banned for constanly insulting and personal attacks from that thread (which I had to keep on eidting out)

no other reason

read the rules if you think we didnt do it by the book


and for the record, I'm an atheist/agnostic too and agree with alot of what you said, just didnt like the way you said it (i.e insults and personal attacks), also other people on that thread recived warning, so you were not singled out.

We locked it to stop further antagonism,which has worked for now, why not all aplogise to each other and let byegones be byegones?

 

[cLavain]

Welcome back, Zosima! 8)

 

[LA-girl]

Hey Zosima!
And welcome back!! :wink:

Hi Remus:
Would you mind telling me what Royston Vasey is :?:
Just a little bit curious...