It's All Your Fault
- Thread starter Opaline
- Start date
I think he's an a-hole. And no, nothing he said is true. People do care, even if he obviously doesn't. We don't fall into depression and have anxiety and disorders because we choose to. There are external factors that he will never grasp. He sounds like a miserably hardened, callous person. Perhaps he is a psychopath, in which case I take back what I said about his being an a-hole. I can't judge him for being an unfeeling monster any more than he can rightfully judge me for occasionally feeling suicidal. The things he said are the kinds of people/things/ideas that don't deserve to be taken seriously by anyone. I hope you know that, deep down.
Steppen-Wolf
Well-known member
He's clearily an unprofessional douche. And a blog post like that is only made with the intention to provoke and anger people.
It's best not to give him the attention he wants.
It's best not to give him the attention he wants.
As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
First up, he's absolutely, unequivocally wrong about suicide being entirely the victim's fault. This is a damned dangerous attitude to have.
There's no doubt that this guy is a raging d-bag, but unfortunately that doesn't invalidate all of his points. As you said, this kinda job does desensitize you. Emergency room doctors and EMTs see some absolutely awful ****, some tragic, some self-inflicted, and the results of some absolutely awful decisions. Dark humor - which is usually not posted on the Internet for all to see, by the way - helps them cope with it.
They can also burn out - just be unable to deal with it anymore. They get too used to tragedy. Either this guy's been actually damaged by his experiences, or he's venting his frustrations in a completely unprofessional manner. (Or maybe he is just an attention seeking asshat - we are talking about the Internet)
But enough defending him! On to the points that were bothering you.
There's a concept I once read about called 'the monkey sphere'. The basic gist is that the brains of whatever breed of monkey were used in the study could only support so many relationships. They could only handle processing a certain number of monkeys, and beyond that, could not identify other monkeys as being part of the social unit.
Well, we're social primates too, and even for our impressive brains, we too have a monkey sphere. We can form and process a lot more relationships, but that limit is still there. After that point, it becomes harder for one to identify another human being as part of the tribe or whatever. If you have a shred of decency in you, you're at least civil to any other human being you happen across - but how much should you care for everyone you pass on the street? How much should you care about the guy who accidentally overdosed on whatever drug, when it's your job to clean it up? The gang-related gunshot victim? The suicide? The most compassionate and loving person in the world can't take up the metaphorical cross for every person they meet. And not every doctor, EMT, policeman, whatever, can be a saint - and as previously mentioned, they're seeing a lot of the most horrific things society has to offer.
It's not hard to imagine that at some point, something will snap inside a person and it becomes very easy to rationalize everything as 100% the victim's fault.
So is being disturbed by this being emotionally immature? I suppose it depends. The guy needs to find a better outlet for this, or maybe just step back and admit he's burnt out and find a less taxing profession. (Or, if he's just seeking attention, grow up.) But I think there is some bitter truth to swallow mixed in with the rancor. Absolutely god-awful things happen in this world, and ignoring it will just make it that much more of a punch in the gut when you suddenly can't.
That's pretty much what I think. As for how I feel...
People, obviously, have the capacity to care - even for strangers. Whether there's more light or more shadow in the world, the fact remains there's some of both. And even if a lot of people can't muster enough caring to actually help strangers, well, there should be room in somebody's monkey sphere for all of us, right? One jerkass on the Internet - not even a million jerkasses on the Internet, or all the jerkasses on the Internet - should make you stop believing that. Caring is a renewable resource.
And as far as blame goes or whose fault it is - **** it. It's a pointless endeavor. What's done is done, you feel how you feel, and you are who you are - there may be some value in figuring out the root cause, but all you can do now is do something about it. The road ahead is steep enough without worrying about looking over your shoulder, right?
It feels odd wavering between cynical and optimistic like this. I hope my views are of some use, at least - I have some relatives in less glamorous professions like this, so I've had a chance to come to terms with it myself.
First up, he's absolutely, unequivocally wrong about suicide being entirely the victim's fault. This is a damned dangerous attitude to have.
There's no doubt that this guy is a raging d-bag, but unfortunately that doesn't invalidate all of his points. As you said, this kinda job does desensitize you. Emergency room doctors and EMTs see some absolutely awful ****, some tragic, some self-inflicted, and the results of some absolutely awful decisions. Dark humor - which is usually not posted on the Internet for all to see, by the way - helps them cope with it.
They can also burn out - just be unable to deal with it anymore. They get too used to tragedy. Either this guy's been actually damaged by his experiences, or he's venting his frustrations in a completely unprofessional manner. (Or maybe he is just an attention seeking asshat - we are talking about the Internet)
But enough defending him! On to the points that were bothering you.
There's a concept I once read about called 'the monkey sphere'. The basic gist is that the brains of whatever breed of monkey were used in the study could only support so many relationships. They could only handle processing a certain number of monkeys, and beyond that, could not identify other monkeys as being part of the social unit.
Well, we're social primates too, and even for our impressive brains, we too have a monkey sphere. We can form and process a lot more relationships, but that limit is still there. After that point, it becomes harder for one to identify another human being as part of the tribe or whatever. If you have a shred of decency in you, you're at least civil to any other human being you happen across - but how much should you care for everyone you pass on the street? How much should you care about the guy who accidentally overdosed on whatever drug, when it's your job to clean it up? The gang-related gunshot victim? The suicide? The most compassionate and loving person in the world can't take up the metaphorical cross for every person they meet. And not every doctor, EMT, policeman, whatever, can be a saint - and as previously mentioned, they're seeing a lot of the most horrific things society has to offer.
It's not hard to imagine that at some point, something will snap inside a person and it becomes very easy to rationalize everything as 100% the victim's fault.
So is being disturbed by this being emotionally immature? I suppose it depends. The guy needs to find a better outlet for this, or maybe just step back and admit he's burnt out and find a less taxing profession. (Or, if he's just seeking attention, grow up.) But I think there is some bitter truth to swallow mixed in with the rancor. Absolutely god-awful things happen in this world, and ignoring it will just make it that much more of a punch in the gut when you suddenly can't.
That's pretty much what I think. As for how I feel...
People, obviously, have the capacity to care - even for strangers. Whether there's more light or more shadow in the world, the fact remains there's some of both. And even if a lot of people can't muster enough caring to actually help strangers, well, there should be room in somebody's monkey sphere for all of us, right? One jerkass on the Internet - not even a million jerkasses on the Internet, or all the jerkasses on the Internet - should make you stop believing that. Caring is a renewable resource.
And as far as blame goes or whose fault it is - **** it. It's a pointless endeavor. What's done is done, you feel how you feel, and you are who you are - there may be some value in figuring out the root cause, but all you can do now is do something about it. The road ahead is steep enough without worrying about looking over your shoulder, right?
It feels odd wavering between cynical and optimistic like this. I hope my views are of some use, at least - I have some relatives in less glamorous professions like this, so I've had a chance to come to terms with it myself.
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WeirdyMcGee
Well-known member
People in professions where they are constantly surrounded by death have to become jaded and cold in a way-- just to continue on with their lives.
That's what I think.
In his case... he should have probably retired several years ago.
Sounds like he's too hardened and it's really quite sad for him.
I pity this man.
Out of all my attempts-- I was never caught, never found and never called 911 or gone to the hospital.
And I feel like a loser, even so.
Yeah, I failed.
There's a reason for everything though, I suppose.
Sometimes people need to fail or ask for help in order to receive their wake-up call at last.
That's what I think.
In his case... he should have probably retired several years ago.
Sounds like he's too hardened and it's really quite sad for him.
I pity this man.
Out of all my attempts-- I was never caught, never found and never called 911 or gone to the hospital.
And I feel like a loser, even so.
Yeah, I failed.
There's a reason for everything though, I suppose.
Sometimes people need to fail or ask for help in order to receive their wake-up call at last.
Rembrandt Broam
Well-known member
I was going to make a long reply to this, but basically he's just an a**hole. He obviously likes to get an emotional response out of people, just like any other troll, and yet he calls other people immature. 
Sounds like he should get another job, and leave being a EMT to people who are able do it in a more professional manner.
Sounds like he should get another job, and leave being a EMT to people who are able do it in a more professional manner.
Lea
Banned
Is it this article? The Ten Minute Suicide Guide | Cracked.com
I guess I came across it one time ago when I was so depressed that I decided I would do it and looked for a suicide guide. It alleviated me a bit to read about a suicide in a joking way, but at the same time I thought that guy was one of those arseholes who think they´re funny but instead come accross as embarassing (which they never realize). I normally skip things like that because I don´t enjoy reading it but it doesn´t make me mad either.
One thing which is noteworthy is, he writes that most people have to realize that nobody really cares about them. I think it´s true, most people seem to expect too much from people and then they are constantly disappointed and pissed. But if you take it as a matter of fact and don´t be angry because of it, it will become easier for you and for others too.. haha I don´t know so well what I am saying.
I guess depending on other people will make us constantly disappointed. But at the same time I think people need other people, social network, groups to be welcomed in or close friends. If we don´t have it, it is an art to stay above the water. What helps me sometimes is reading a Bible or some spiritual literature (but it depends which one as there is a lot of rubbish in this department). I don´t have recipes for deep depressions either yet, I normally try to function despite that, but it it very hard as sometimes I end up crying at work etc. It´s hard to lift yourself from the ground when you´ve reached the rock bottom.
I guess I came across it one time ago when I was so depressed that I decided I would do it and looked for a suicide guide. It alleviated me a bit to read about a suicide in a joking way, but at the same time I thought that guy was one of those arseholes who think they´re funny but instead come accross as embarassing (which they never realize). I normally skip things like that because I don´t enjoy reading it but it doesn´t make me mad either.
One thing which is noteworthy is, he writes that most people have to realize that nobody really cares about them. I think it´s true, most people seem to expect too much from people and then they are constantly disappointed and pissed. But if you take it as a matter of fact and don´t be angry because of it, it will become easier for you and for others too.. haha I don´t know so well what I am saying
. I guess depending on other people will make us constantly disappointed. But at the same time I think people need other people, social network, groups to be welcomed in or close friends. If we don´t have it, it is an art to stay above the water. What helps me sometimes is reading a Bible or some spiritual literature (but it depends which one as there is a lot of rubbish in this department). I don´t have recipes for deep depressions either yet, I normally try to function despite that, but it it very hard as sometimes I end up crying at work etc. It´s hard to lift yourself from the ground when you´ve reached the rock bottom.
lyricalliaisons
Well-known member
Personally, I think that when most people try to kill themselves they use methods that are almost proven to fail, like slitting their wrists or taking too many pills, etc. If someone is going to do it, they should do it RIGHT. Plan it and make sure it will work. Do some research. The reason I have no suicide attempts myself is because the most common ways will not work, most likely. So I understand what the guy meant when he said that you should make sure i works instead of "attempting" to do it.
But i disagree with everything else he said. The guy seems like an a$$. I know from personal experience that my depression and suicidal tendencies were NOT caused by myself (or by anyone else, for that matter). There is obviously something wrong with my brain chemistry and has been since birth. That guy does not know what he's talking about.
I also disagree when he says the social workers, etc. don't care whether the person lives or dies. Most people become social workers because they care about people. They like people and want to see people safe and happy, not suicidal and depressed. Some of them may not care, but that's not true for most.
The guy just seems very vain and shouldn't be taken the least bit seriously.
But i disagree with everything else he said. The guy seems like an a$$. I know from personal experience that my depression and suicidal tendencies were NOT caused by myself (or by anyone else, for that matter). There is obviously something wrong with my brain chemistry and has been since birth. That guy does not know what he's talking about.
I also disagree when he says the social workers, etc. don't care whether the person lives or dies. Most people become social workers because they care about people. They like people and want to see people safe and happy, not suicidal and depressed. Some of them may not care, but that's not true for most.
The guy just seems very vain and shouldn't be taken the least bit seriously.
coyote
Well-known member
as a former emergency services/public safety professional, i can tell you that people DO care
even if they're in professions that harden them emotionally to the stuff they deal with everyday, they do it because they DO care - trust me, the money isn't good enough to make it worthwhile otherwise
there are some bad apples - or there are some people that just don't have what it takes to do that sort of work, and they should get out of it before they hurt someone
like the guy that wrote the article - it sounds like he's the one who is emotionally immature, and can't handle the gravity of his job without cloaking himself in bitterness and sarcasm
even if they're in professions that harden them emotionally to the stuff they deal with everyday, they do it because they DO care - trust me, the money isn't good enough to make it worthwhile otherwise
there are some bad apples - or there are some people that just don't have what it takes to do that sort of work, and they should get out of it before they hurt someone
like the guy that wrote the article - it sounds like he's the one who is emotionally immature, and can't handle the gravity of his job without cloaking himself in bitterness and sarcasm
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I agree, SweetMarie. This guys tirade should not be regarded with much value; however it can persuade those with indecision, which is why I agree with O'Killan that this attitude is hazardous.
I disagree of course, that suicide is always an act of attention. When a person is down to that moment, they're trying to reflect. So, is he telling people never to reflect on life? The unfortunate thing is, is that multiple people have this stance without even being in a profession that deals with this. The "suck it up" attitude, that does not sympathize with others; sociopaths.
I find it odd that certain acts can determine one persons whole self worth. It seems like something personal going on with him, to have extraordinary reactions to something that is not extra as he makes it. He really needs to just find a less primitive way to handle his emotions. When one does not even take criticism to their argument, there should be a red flag there.
He said the thing about social workers, it seems like that reaction is just part of his rage to hurt people and it's a cover up. Of course it's not true, many people take jobs like that because of their sympathy and relation to others and there are some bad people in all professions.
chibiXphantom
Well-known member
its not any persons own fault that they are suicidal, depressed, cant handle bad situations or whatever. saying its someone's fault would imply that there was a choice made. and who would choose to be suicidal and depressed?
yes people may have made decisions that may have lead them to feeling that way, and people do handle situations differently. i dont think anyone is to blame really. its no one persons fault that someone would end their life. its usually a result of negative things piling up one by one till its too much to bear and they dont know how to cope.
im not sure if commiting suicide is weak or not. when i attempted suicide, all i knew was that i didnt want to live anymore. i knew i could handle life if i tried (and i am trying), but i just didnt want to. saw no point in it and i just didnt care. if i were to read stuff like that then (especially about people dont really care about you) i would think 'whats the point. if no one cares about me, why should i care about myself?'
i agree with some others that this guy is probably desensitized, or just wanting to get a reaction from people. its harsh, but i wouldnt dwell on it too much
yes people may have made decisions that may have lead them to feeling that way, and people do handle situations differently. i dont think anyone is to blame really. its no one persons fault that someone would end their life. its usually a result of negative things piling up one by one till its too much to bear and they dont know how to cope.
im not sure if commiting suicide is weak or not. when i attempted suicide, all i knew was that i didnt want to live anymore. i knew i could handle life if i tried (and i am trying), but i just didnt want to. saw no point in it and i just didnt care. if i were to read stuff like that then (especially about people dont really care about you) i would think 'whats the point. if no one cares about me, why should i care about myself?'
i agree with some others that this guy is probably desensitized, or just wanting to get a reaction from people. its harsh, but i wouldnt dwell on it too much
Lea
Banned
When I was a caregiver, we were taught we should keep some sort of professional distance. That means to do our job, but not become too much emotionally or personally involved which I think is right. Someone might argue but I think it is better like this, because if we did, it would bring more harm than help. I think me and my coleagues cared for the people we helped, but of course we know we can only do so much, the rest we can´t influence as it would mean getting involved into personal matters.
I think there are differences, there are social and health workers who care, while others don´t, or even hate the people and their job.
I personally prefer those who are not obnoxious or intrusively attentive, but insted help efficiently, bring everything in time, never complain if I call them, are nice and tolerant but keep some sort of professional distance. So some people want emotional involvement from their carers or nurses, I am happier when they just do their job and do it right.
I think there are differences, there are social and health workers who care, while others don´t, or even hate the people and their job.
I personally prefer those who are not obnoxious or intrusively attentive, but insted help efficiently, bring everything in time, never complain if I call them, are nice and tolerant but keep some sort of professional distance. So some people want emotional involvement from their carers or nurses, I am happier when they just do their job and do it right.
Flowers-Of-Bloom
Well-known member
You give him more credibility than he deserves. He is just an ignorant unsympathetic a**hole. People like that are not worth listening to.
We aren't as in control of our mood/feelings as much as we may like to think. That is why mental illness is often hereditary. Take bipolar sufferers for example, is it their fault that they experience crippling bouts of depression and suicidal thoughts? No. They cannot control when and if they have manic or depressive episodes because they cannot control the neurons in their brain. The same applies to unipolar disorder (depression). I'm not saying that people are completely free of fault, but it is largely a neurological issue that we have little to no control over. That is not an excuse, it is a fact.
We aren't as in control of our mood/feelings as much as we may like to think. That is why mental illness is often hereditary. Take bipolar sufferers for example, is it their fault that they experience crippling bouts of depression and suicidal thoughts? No. They cannot control when and if they have manic or depressive episodes because they cannot control the neurons in their brain. The same applies to unipolar disorder (depression). I'm not saying that people are completely free of fault, but it is largely a neurological issue that we have little to no control over. That is not an excuse, it is a fact.
@Tally and Xervello - heh, thanks, I was happy to write it.
I suppose I got a little caught up on the nature of these jobs and explaining why the guy's a jerk and how at the end of the day, other folks don't have a whole lot of reason to care about you. I think it's important not to blow him off as just another a-hole - and I'm glad some folks agree I'm not totally crazy for thinking that. I've said my piece on all this, I think (and coyote and Lea said it better than I, anyway).
So onto this blaming the victim thing. Again, without caveat - this is a dangerous mentality.
Some people do threaten or attempt suicide solely for attention, it's true. But by my understanding, at least,the vast majority of the time, it's a decision predicated on false premises, and often in a less-than-rational state of mind. To me suicide is an acute result and while, in a purely physical sense it's the fault of the victim, the important part is how they arrived at that intent.
That brings us to depression. It seems to be a common human quality to pretend that we're completely in control at every moment and that we know ourselves as the sum of our experiences, but that's not how it works. It's both easy and common to get caught up in the moment, assume the decision is a good one, and carry it out. With suicide that's always tragic.
The more I think about it, the more strongly I feel that playing the blame game is self-defeating. It seems to me that if one can recognize that one is suicidal or depressed, they are the only person who can be at all expected to seek help. It is then upon them to accept that help and attempt to change - and I know how hard it can be to change oneself, and I can only imagine how much harder it is if one is insecure. If one fails to do that, do you call that the fault of the person, or the fault of their depression?
I'm not seeing an answer I can get behind. The two are just so intertwined.
As Tally said, there is a LOT of work to do... And that's all that matters. The only blame that'll really help is placed on brain chemistry, thinking patterns, or whatever you can change to fix it. Either you find it in you to work through all that, or you avoid it.
Finally;
From what I've seen, you're perfectly capable of thinking for yourself. I imagine that you really and truly do doubt yourself too much, but my opinion on opinions is they should rarely be set in stone. A lot of people cling to them far too dearly because thinking about them is inconvenient, hurtful, or whatever other unpleasantness. You shouldn't be completely wishy-washy, of course, and you clearly weren't - faced with this, you sought out more opinions, considered it, and (I assume) came to a conclusion that's a little less bleak and hopefully a lot more realistic.
I suppose I got a little caught up on the nature of these jobs and explaining why the guy's a jerk and how at the end of the day, other folks don't have a whole lot of reason to care about you. I think it's important not to blow him off as just another a-hole - and I'm glad some folks agree I'm not totally crazy for thinking that. I've said my piece on all this, I think (and coyote and Lea said it better than I, anyway).
So onto this blaming the victim thing. Again, without caveat - this is a dangerous mentality.
Some people do threaten or attempt suicide solely for attention, it's true. But by my understanding, at least,the vast majority of the time, it's a decision predicated on false premises, and often in a less-than-rational state of mind. To me suicide is an acute result and while, in a purely physical sense it's the fault of the victim, the important part is how they arrived at that intent.
That brings us to depression. It seems to be a common human quality to pretend that we're completely in control at every moment and that we know ourselves as the sum of our experiences, but that's not how it works. It's both easy and common to get caught up in the moment, assume the decision is a good one, and carry it out. With suicide that's always tragic.
The more I think about it, the more strongly I feel that playing the blame game is self-defeating. It seems to me that if one can recognize that one is suicidal or depressed, they are the only person who can be at all expected to seek help. It is then upon them to accept that help and attempt to change - and I know how hard it can be to change oneself, and I can only imagine how much harder it is if one is insecure. If one fails to do that, do you call that the fault of the person, or the fault of their depression?
I'm not seeing an answer I can get behind. The two are just so intertwined.
As Tally said, there is a LOT of work to do... And that's all that matters. The only blame that'll really help is placed on brain chemistry, thinking patterns, or whatever you can change to fix it. Either you find it in you to work through all that, or you avoid it.
Finally;
Tally_Lyra said:
From what I've seen, you're perfectly capable of thinking for yourself. I imagine that you really and truly do doubt yourself too much, but my opinion on opinions is they should rarely be set in stone. A lot of people cling to them far too dearly because thinking about them is inconvenient, hurtful, or whatever other unpleasantness. You shouldn't be completely wishy-washy, of course, and you clearly weren't - faced with this, you sought out more opinions, considered it, and (I assume) came to a conclusion that's a little less bleak and hopefully a lot more realistic.
My thoughts exactly.
9407
Well-known member
He might be a troll. I've tried twice by swallowing pills. The first time, I called 911 before anything happened and the second time My mom tried to wake me up but when I didn't, she called 911. I wasn't doing it for attention. If I wanted attention, I would have jumped in front of a train during rush hour.
Lea
Banned
Haha, I don´t think so, because your death would be sure as hell and you couldn´t enjoy any
.
Bustn Justin
Well-known member
Just reading that confirms what I feel everyday.
I believe my anxiety/depression/lonliness is all my doing since I feel I have done something to deserve it. I could've made better decisions in my life and had a more favourable outcome.
As for suicide, when I was serious about taking my own life I would say I had no plans on doing it, in reality I was planning on doing so. For me I didn't want to attempt it, I wanted it to be permanent.
What stopped me is that I couldn't bring on that much pain to my folks, but still felt miserable and keep going on as is.
Finally geting to a point now I need to do something since this state of mind is making things worse than bettter.
I believe my anxiety/depression/lonliness is all my doing since I feel I have done something to deserve it. I could've made better decisions in my life and had a more favourable outcome.
As for suicide, when I was serious about taking my own life I would say I had no plans on doing it, in reality I was planning on doing so. For me I didn't want to attempt it, I wanted it to be permanent.
What stopped me is that I couldn't bring on that much pain to my folks, but still felt miserable and keep going on as is.
Finally geting to a point now I need to do something since this state of mind is making things worse than bettter.
Solitudes_Grace
Well-known member
It is strange. EMTs are supposed to help people, but these EMTs obviously have no empathy towards other human beings at all. I'm sickened by the things they said on this blog.