KiaKaha
Banned
I completely disagree with you. That method of thinking is not an excuse for not taking responsibility for ones own life - there is an absolute difference between being passive, and being treated unfairly.
You are only what other people think you are
- Thread starter KiaKaha
- Start date
I completely disagree with you. That method of thinking is not an excuse for not taking responsibility for ones own life - there is an absolute difference between being passive, and being treated unfairly.
I also disagree.
Thanks for starting this thread KiaKaha and getting people to think about this. It's definitely a neat philosophical question that I've thought about before. Some of my problems with social anxiety has been I've always felt I was different because I liked to think and talk about life like this and not just about celebrities and going to bars and getting drunk.
Just my opinion, but to stick with what I've said then you'd still be nice
Even if every other person in the world thinks you are mean, if you really are nice and you believe you are nice, then its my belief that you are nice. So I'm kind of challenging your idea that you are what other people think of you, which believe me I really understand and it makes sense. To repeat, I believe that you are ultimately only what you think you are and believe you will be, because only you can change your life.
But this is where your belief in yourself and your own thinking comes into play, and not letting what other people think of you limit your life or change your own thinking and beliefs. Imagine how many black people challenged what white people thought about them and said about them in order to get equal rights and believe that they should no longer be treated as slaves.
On the macro level I agree with what you are saying that prejudice is a horrible thing and people or groups in power have brought down many other groups of people. And yes, I agree with what you are saying that the way other people perceive you determines how they will treat you. The best thing about this in my opinion is that this is changing drastically in the last 100 or so years to different types of groups including blacks, gays, and women. But yes it still affects many people negatively of course, including quiet people, introverts, and people with social anxiety.
On the micro level I think there is the philosophical question of how people think of us and then I think there is the question of what are we going to do about it or how we let that affect us. The second part of that is what I'm focusing on I guess. I think that in order to improve your life that you need to change your thinking and believe what you want to be and forget about negative thoughts or perceptions from other people. I think that what you believe of your current self and future self is most important and that you should not let negative perceptions from other people affect your own thinking. Utimately they cannot change you into what they think you are; only you can change your thinking and be what you want to be. So in that sense, you are ultimately only what you think, not what they think.
A book I think you would like is 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. It not only talks about specific things to do in your life to guide you to achieve what you want, but it actually starts the book with exactly what you are talking about. About people's perceptions being different and about our perception of ourselves, other people, and everything else in life. Another great book, that talks about believing in yourself and the power of your thinking is Think and Grow Rich, which is really about achieving any goals, not about getting rich. Those are good books to read when you want to not just think about the philosophical questions you are asking, but decide what you will do with your knowledge about people's perceptions and your own thinking. And how you can use that to accept the way the world is and improve your life through your own thinking and actions.
The most important thing I think is that you are asking these questions. Keep asking them, but also think about why you are asking them. Are you asking them so you can be mad at the world for wrongs that happen to you and others. Or at some point are you asking them so you can find out what you should do about that and how you can best accept the world as it is and use that knowledge to improve your life. A bit of both is good, but I would encourage anyone to think about the second part of that if they want to be happy or successful in life.
Just my opinion, but to stick with what I've said then you'd still be nice
Even if every other person in the world thinks you are mean, if you really are nice and you believe you are nice, then its my belief that you are nice. So I'm kind of challenging your idea that you are what other people think of you, which believe me I really understand and it makes sense. To repeat, I believe that you are ultimately only what you think you are and believe you will be, because only you can change your life.But this is where your belief in yourself and your own thinking comes into play, and not letting what other people think of you limit your life or change your own thinking and beliefs. Imagine how many black people challenged what white people thought about them and said about them in order to get equal rights and believe that they should no longer be treated as slaves.
On the macro level I agree with what you are saying that prejudice is a horrible thing and people or groups in power have brought down many other groups of people. And yes, I agree with what you are saying that the way other people perceive you determines how they will treat you. The best thing about this in my opinion is that this is changing drastically in the last 100 or so years to different types of groups including blacks, gays, and women. But yes it still affects many people negatively of course, including quiet people, introverts, and people with social anxiety.
On the micro level I think there is the philosophical question of how people think of us and then I think there is the question of what are we going to do about it or how we let that affect us. The second part of that is what I'm focusing on I guess. I think that in order to improve your life that you need to change your thinking and believe what you want to be and forget about negative thoughts or perceptions from other people. I think that what you believe of your current self and future self is most important and that you should not let negative perceptions from other people affect your own thinking. Utimately they cannot change you into what they think you are; only you can change your thinking and be what you want to be. So in that sense, you are ultimately only what you think, not what they think.
A book I think you would like is 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. It not only talks about specific things to do in your life to guide you to achieve what you want, but it actually starts the book with exactly what you are talking about. About people's perceptions being different and about our perception of ourselves, other people, and everything else in life. Another great book, that talks about believing in yourself and the power of your thinking is Think and Grow Rich, which is really about achieving any goals, not about getting rich. Those are good books to read when you want to not just think about the philosophical questions you are asking, but decide what you will do with your knowledge about people's perceptions and your own thinking. And how you can use that to accept the way the world is and improve your life through your own thinking and actions.
The most important thing I think is that you are asking these questions. Keep asking them, but also think about why you are asking them. Are you asking them so you can be mad at the world for wrongs that happen to you and others. Or at some point are you asking them so you can find out what you should do about that and how you can best accept the world as it is and use that knowledge to improve your life. A bit of both is good, but I would encourage anyone to think about the second part of that if they want to be happy or successful in life.
bcsr
Well-known member
The notion that other people's opinions define you is silly. If one person thinks you're a great guy, and another person thinks you're a loser, which is correct?
Sounds like victim mentality to me. Everything that goes wrong for me is someone else's fault.
Pacific_Loner
Pirate from the North Pole
I don't know if it's too much of an easy answer for you, but I think what we are is defined by a lot of things including genetics, surroundings, life events, and probably many other things. I think I understand where you're trying to get, but I'm a bit sad for you that you seem to need to dwell on this idea that life is unfair and that it explains your unhapiness.
Well said. This connection doesn't seem apparent right away but somehow this is what happens from what I've learned. Again, the books I mentioned talk about why this is the case. I dare you to read them.
Yes people will mistreat you, misjudge you, and have correct or incorrect negative thoughts about you which could bring you down if you let them. And yes being treated unfairly and being passive are two separate things.
But that is why it is important to not be defined by their thoughts and how they treat you, but instead by your own. If you define yourself by your own thoughts, you take responsibility for your life and are determined to live the life you want even knowing that other people treat you unfairly sometimes and wrongly have negative thoughts about you.
weberriver
Active member
^ I agree entirely.
KiaKaha
Banned
You make an excellent point with this example - and it is certainly a good thing. This is an ultimate example of fruition to what a motivating power that the belief in unfairness can produce. Accepting things as they are - is in my view likened to apathy and indifference. Complaining, causing a fuss, feeling a sense of injustice can produce HUGE effects that change the world (like the french revolution - which still has effects on the world today).... but despite that, previously before the equal rights movement came about - they were in that position because people (those in power) saw them in a prejudiced way - I read somewhere that slavery was only abolished in the state of Mississippi in the mid nineties. I mean come on....really?
I think this is what people have a lot of trouble with when it comes to this sort of stuff. People hear my point of view and they interpret it as either 'giving up' or they see it as 'whining' - it's neither. No obviously people cant change you into what they think you are, but depending on who sees you to them you are what they think you are - even if you believe you are not. There is also the question of norms - which can define ones identity. When you think about someone who has done massive wrong - and everyone is in agreement, then is that correct? What about people who sympathize with them - are they correct? Who is that determines exactly how ones behaviour or ideals is right or wrong? The person who displaying the behaviour or the ones who are judging and interpreting it - maybe its the status quo. If we all agree with each other then it must be the truth.
I have read the 7 habits book - waaaay back in the day. I cant actually remember it all that well, but yes I can remember that there were good points made.
There is a distinction between victim mentality and being passive as I have already said. I sometimes wonder at how people who think that everything is netural and 'fair' in their eyes would feel once they have been very obviously treated wrong for no sound reason. I wonder if they would keep that attitude of absolute neutrality and apparent misguided personal 'responsibility'
I can see where this is about to go. Who says I am unhappy? Sounds like you are pitying me for thinking the way that I do. I am trying to advocate a sense of social responsibility and consciousness of thought for other people outside of ourselves.
WeirdyMcGee
Well-known member
I've struggled with this since childhood and I'm not sure where I stand, to be honest.
All I know is that when you're born into low income housing - word is, your mother is a tramp and your father is a drug dealer; people treat you a certain way. They talk to you a certain way. Your first impression doesn't matter as much as what they believe you are-- no matter how long you've been the opposite of what they believe you to be.
I'm still myself, somehow... I try my best to be a good person, even though people believe I'm not good.
I do often feel selfconscious and hated, though-- and I usually feel like I am never good 'enough' to change where I've come from.
All I know is that when you're born into low income housing - word is, your mother is a tramp and your father is a drug dealer; people treat you a certain way. They talk to you a certain way. Your first impression doesn't matter as much as what they believe you are-- no matter how long you've been the opposite of what they believe you to be.
I'm still myself, somehow... I try my best to be a good person, even though people believe I'm not good.
I do often feel selfconscious and hated, though-- and I usually feel like I am never good 'enough' to change where I've come from.
bcsr
Well-known member
Everyone has been mistreated at some point in their life. The distinction lies in how you react to it. Do you wallow in those singular moments, or do you pick yourself up and move on?
KiaKaha
Banned
You move on of course - otherwise you will be stuck in the same place for good. Thats just common sense. But does that mean that being mistreated by others is justifiable and acceptable? Sometimes others need to be held accountable. The victim mentality argument is a convenient excuse to dismiss and substantiate insensitivity to the needs of others.... victim mentality is not what this thread is really about, even though I can understand completely why my argument is being interpreted that way. But seeing as we are talking about it - even if there *is* a victim mentality does that mean its not acceptable or understandable...? Maybe we should start asking questions and figuring out and accepting why people are the way they are - rather than being turned off and frustrated because they are not as clever as us.
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bcsr
Well-known member
Does it matter if it's justifiable or acceptable? It happens. That's life. You can't control what other people do. You do it, I do it, everyone in this world has prejudice. Everyone.
KiaKaha
Banned
Yes it does matter bcsr... That is exactly the point. You see it as something that is natural and part of life - I see at something that needs to change and to be progressed forward. Everyone has prejudice, I am just not sure if everyone is aware that they do. Just imagine what things would be like if they did...
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KiaKaha,
Interesting question. I will disagree with you (respectfully of course).
I agree with you that extroverts are prized over introverts in our society, and that this is inherently unfair to highly sensitive people/people with social anxiety (and so on). In many cases introverts/highly sensitive people are misunderstood and in some cases they are discriminated against/bullied/looked down upon, and in large part I think this is due to a herd mentality that is by nature competitive and a series of twisted societal influences (like our obsession with celebrities and our religious consumerism, for example). So, in a sense reality is what the majority believes because this discrimination happens often and is hurtful to the victims. But, unlike other unjust institutions/ways of thinking the herd has accepted throughout history (ex slavery, monarchical rule), this is not one that is maintained by law and backed up by force and/or violence. In other words, you are not forced to be extroverted and it’s not illegal to be introverted; you are completely free to be that way. While twisted societal influences may certainly be to blame for being misunderstood as an introvert, the pain/suffering/negativity associated with such are created by that person. The pain and suffering that one feels as a result of “not belonging” is that individual feeding into the herd mentality and longing to be part of the majority. I suppose it’s only natural; once upon a time “not belonging” to the herd meant certain death. How many people throughout history have been killed for not being a certain religion/race/nationality? Being highly sensitive or introverted in today's soicety might mean exclusion or discrimination to a certain degree, but you are still free to pursue your interests and your dreams. Perhaps it’s an unfair system that needs to change, but no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to be one way or the other (and that’s a good thing). Perhaps the ones that are being unfair/discriminatory towards us should be punished, but they have not committed any real crime. Maybe someone should sit them down and explain to them their prejudices and biases. But who would that someone be, and wouldn’t they be just as vulnerable to their own prejudices and biases?
Humans are by nature social creatures and we all desire relationships, introverts and extroverts. I know a few very introverted people who are often misunderstood as being weird/undesirable/cold/unfriendly/indifferent but who are completely satisfied with themselves. They don’t form many relationships but the ones they have are close. They are the ones that have broken out of the herd mentality and have accepted their own reality. The negativity associated with being misunderstood…all the pain, suffering, self-hate, shame, etc that we feel for being introverted…this is what keeps us from forming relationships, not being introverted in and of itself. It’s a natural thing to do, but it’s something we learn and we do to ourselves. So I suppose my central thesis of the night is that your reality is created almost entirely by you. Sure, someone may think negatively of you, but that doesn’t matter unless that drives you to feel negative about yourself. I feel like if we stopped thinking so damn negatively about being introverted and just accepted it, we’d have an easier time. If we spent less time thinking about what we are to others and more about what we want in life, I think we’d experience a different reality.
Interesting question. I will disagree with you (respectfully of course).
I agree with you that extroverts are prized over introverts in our society, and that this is inherently unfair to highly sensitive people/people with social anxiety (and so on). In many cases introverts/highly sensitive people are misunderstood and in some cases they are discriminated against/bullied/looked down upon, and in large part I think this is due to a herd mentality that is by nature competitive and a series of twisted societal influences (like our obsession with celebrities and our religious consumerism, for example). So, in a sense reality is what the majority believes because this discrimination happens often and is hurtful to the victims. But, unlike other unjust institutions/ways of thinking the herd has accepted throughout history (ex slavery, monarchical rule), this is not one that is maintained by law and backed up by force and/or violence. In other words, you are not forced to be extroverted and it’s not illegal to be introverted; you are completely free to be that way. While twisted societal influences may certainly be to blame for being misunderstood as an introvert, the pain/suffering/negativity associated with such are created by that person. The pain and suffering that one feels as a result of “not belonging” is that individual feeding into the herd mentality and longing to be part of the majority. I suppose it’s only natural; once upon a time “not belonging” to the herd meant certain death. How many people throughout history have been killed for not being a certain religion/race/nationality? Being highly sensitive or introverted in today's soicety might mean exclusion or discrimination to a certain degree, but you are still free to pursue your interests and your dreams. Perhaps it’s an unfair system that needs to change, but no one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to be one way or the other (and that’s a good thing). Perhaps the ones that are being unfair/discriminatory towards us should be punished, but they have not committed any real crime. Maybe someone should sit them down and explain to them their prejudices and biases. But who would that someone be, and wouldn’t they be just as vulnerable to their own prejudices and biases?
Humans are by nature social creatures and we all desire relationships, introverts and extroverts. I know a few very introverted people who are often misunderstood as being weird/undesirable/cold/unfriendly/indifferent but who are completely satisfied with themselves. They don’t form many relationships but the ones they have are close. They are the ones that have broken out of the herd mentality and have accepted their own reality. The negativity associated with being misunderstood…all the pain, suffering, self-hate, shame, etc that we feel for being introverted…this is what keeps us from forming relationships, not being introverted in and of itself. It’s a natural thing to do, but it’s something we learn and we do to ourselves. So I suppose my central thesis of the night is that your reality is created almost entirely by you. Sure, someone may think negatively of you, but that doesn’t matter unless that drives you to feel negative about yourself. I feel like if we stopped thinking so damn negatively about being introverted and just accepted it, we’d have an easier time. If we spent less time thinking about what we are to others and more about what we want in life, I think we’d experience a different reality.
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SickCycleCarousel
Well-known member
there's this great saying "what you think of me is none of my business."
KiaKaha
Banned
You know - with respect... I am really not sure if anyone has understood what I have really tried to say with the message behind this thread.
I just think it's helpful to challenge ones thoughts of how others come across - rather than accept them for what they are. Reality is completely subjective.
That's all.
I just think it's helpful to challenge ones thoughts of how others come across - rather than accept them for what they are. Reality is completely subjective.
That's all.
Unfortunately, people misjudge each other all to often. I have definitely pre-judged others and discovered after really getting to know them that I was wrong and I too have been misjudged by people who do not know me well. In reality, does that mean I am who they think I am before they have gotten to know me? Unless they are accurate in how they perceive me, then my answer would be no because in truth I am not who they "think" I am. It's just their opinion and our perceptions often change.
*Amy*
Well-known member
People will perceive you as you perceive yourself. And if you think that you're worthless, slouch and walk with your head down, you're sending a message and people will treat you -unconsciously- according to that. But then, as we live in a continuous interaction with people, the way others see you affects the way you see yourself at the same time. People will give you a role (in a work group, with friends, in society) and once they've put a label on you it's very hard to get rid of it. Usually you do what you're expected to do, you behave according to the role or the label you've been given. So, it it possible to break that rule and be who you want to be? Yes. The thing is, it's hard.