What RELIGION are you?

[philly2bits]

This went way off topic long ago. Then again, all threads involving religion do, so I shouldn't be too surprised.

 

[Doomed2Die]

Which fails to combine with the idea of god being the very essence of all that is pure and good, unless of course wrath and revenge are part of what's considered "good".

Think of it this way say for example with Adam. Adam willingly decided against God, both his father creator and sovereign of everything created, in an act that he was told the consequences clear as day. The reason why these choices are available is due to the gift of free choice. The reason why such an act is punishable in such a way is because we are his creations, servants, not equals. Considering law and order is such a huge thing in the natural world, it's not far-fetched to think such things are as important to the creator.

 

[LostViking]

Committing such horrifying acts can't be twisted into something good no matter who you are. Especially when you're an omnipotent and almighty creature who -should- have the means to guide people rather than obliterate them.

Furthermore, with a vindictive overlord watching your every step you can't talk about the gift of free will. It then becomes the curse of free will, because your only choice is to do his bidding or face deadly consequences, and you're only left with the illusion of a choice. And to be fair this doesn't help the case of a caring and loving god, but rather portrays one that makes you wonder if it wouldn't be better to flock to the banner of anti-christ at Megiddo in order to protect the ideals of freedom and free-will, rather than being stuck in the "tyranny of god".

 

[Thelema]

And where exactly is God telling me to do this? This is an event, a recording of when the israelites were crossing the wilderness, a time where God was demanding full attention and devotion from them.

What I should do personally is what Jesus did and teached.

"28 Now one of the scribes that had come up and heard them disputing, knowing that he had answered them in a fine way, asked him: “Which commandment is first of all?” 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

This page is kinda aimed at what you are saying also.

The “Old Testament”: “Written for Our Instruction” - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

God knows the past, present and future. God can't be ever surprised or worried or mad...he knows what came before, he knows what's going on now and he knows-most importantly-what's coming next. He controls every situation completely. You can't plead that these were special circumstances where God needed to do something terrible because he had no choice-God has every choice! I can choose not to kill somebody because they make me mad, why can't God?

It would be wrong to stone a person to death because they said God isn't great. Wouldn't you agree?

You're telling me that God knew that this event was coming and he knew that the person would be murdered for saying God isn't great? That's not okay, that isn't okay at all.

 

[Thelema]

So the all powerful god could conjure a flood that killed everyone, but not come up with a less violent way to make the world a better place? How does that fit in with mercy, forgiveness and turning the other cheek? If he was unable to come up with something better, then he's not god. If he could have come up with something that caused less drowning accidents, but didn't, well then he's just got issues.

And besides, as it has been mentioned, god is on several occasions a vengeful piss-ant with more suppressed rage than all the teenagers in the world. Which fails to combine with the idea of god being the very essence of all that is pure and good, unless of course wrath and revenge are part of what's considered "good".

God is saying that if a people frustrate you, don't negotiate, just wipe them out. When we bomb a terrorist stronghold and accidentally kill two children, we're very sad and have deep moral questions to ask ourselves...imagine drowning the whole World. No country is so terrible that every person is bad, so how can we believe that every 3 year old is evil in the entire World and deserves to die?

If the stories of the Bible were true, God would be the biggest mass murderer ever and you can't argue that he can do anything, except he can't think of anything better than killing everyone.

Christians want us to believe that he gets boxed in and has only a few options, but this is absurd. God has limitless power and you can't reconcile that with limited options.

 

[Thelema]

Think of it this way say for example with Adam. Adam willingly decided against God, both his father creator and sovereign of everything created, in an act that he was told the consequences clear as day. The reason why these choices are available is due to the gift of free choice. The reason why such an act is punishable in such a way is because we are his creations, servants, not equals. Considering law and order is such a huge thing in the natural world, it's not far-fetched to think such things are as important to the creator.

So you're arguing we're his property and he can kill and torture us all he likes because he has the power? So if someone has a gun and you don't, that person can decide what's right and wrong?

 

[worrywort]

You be a skeptic and tell me parts of the Bible that you are questioning yourself, besides the fact I just showed you a Bible prophecy that is wrong.

yea I'll be honest with you, there's still a lot of stuff in the bible that does my head in. The doctrine of hell for instance! lol!....well I refuse to believe it atm, it's just mental! And the whole question, if God is good then why is their pain and suffering? That bothers me too. So I agree with you on the whole angry old testament God arguements. I don't know why God seemed so harsh in the old testament and then so forgiving in the new....and if it wasn't for all these other evidences in favour of gods existence I'd probably be on the same page as you right now. But because I've seen so many reasons to believe that God is good, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt in the difficult verses. And so the only answer I can give you as to why God would do these seemingly immoral acts, is that God is different to us. God created human beings. He has the power to give life and to take it away. He knows everything, including every intent inside every human heart. We dont. If you took God to court [hypothetically! lol!] you'd definitely have to take his powers into consideration. Also, the first question is still, "does God exist?". Because if that can be proven, then the character of God is a secondary thing. We just have to hope he's a good God. Denying God's existence just because we don't think he's very nice is illogical. You can't hate God and deny his existence simultaneously.

...germs. A simple idea to use was never even part of their understanding, they thought that evil spirits were the cause of our sickness. It's pretty funny that God wants you to believe evil spirits and witches need to be feared, but never mentions something real like germs.

actually I reckon there's good evidence to show that God knew all about germs. Of the 613 biblical commandments found in the Torah, 213 are medical regulations.[link]. In "the history of medicine", Arturo Castiglione wrote "The laws against leprosy in Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation". [link]. It wasn't until late 19th century that doctors would wash their hands between operations, while the bible taught washing in water 3500 years ago,

"And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13).

And it wasn't until the 20th century that doctors went from washing their hands in a bowl of still water, to using "running water", which the bible had already recognised. Also, National Geographic ran a study to find the healthiest people groups in the world, and one of the top 3 were a group of seventh-day adventists who follow a diet that comes straight from biblical teaching.

BBC NEWS | Magazine | The towns where people live the longest
Longevity, The Secrets of Long Life - National Geographic Magazine

Amos 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Jews have been pulled out of Israel many times since that was written.

In 1948 Israel became an independent nation again. 2500 years prior, it was predicted to THE EXACT DAY [apparently!] that this would happen, in Ezekial. I don't know much about this prophecy in Amos, but it doesn't appear to indicate when this will happen. It could well be refering to todays Israel. Maybe todays israelites shall no more be pulled up out of their land?

 

[worrywort]

The problem with the Bible is that there are not only one or two difficult passage. There are plenty of them. And since you mentioned Koran, there are many holy books claiming to be written/inspired by god. Which of them is the real one? How do you deal with the fact that Jesus is in the Koran only one of the prophets and not messiah nor son of god?

The bible can be tested and scrutinised for its truthfulness using independant sources to a far greater degree than any other holy book. The only evidence the Koran offers for its authority is the Koran itself. They say it is the perfect revelation of God, but only in its original Arabic. So if you can't speak Arabic you can't even begin to test it's validity. There are only 22 predictions in the Koran also and most of them are about the end of the world, which is yet to come and so, again, can't be tested. The Bible is brimming with independant sources of verification. Archaelogically it is historically true. For most ancient texts we only have a dozen or so copies written hundreds of years after the original, but the new testament has over 5000 copies written less than 100 years before the original. Plus the bible is full of specific prophecies that can be verified. Repeatedly, throughout the bible, God declares that fulfilled prophecy is the way you can know that he is the real God.

What kind of prophecies do you mean? Could you please give one example?

...there's some great ones in Daniel but they'd take a while to explain....but you can check out loads here - 100 fulfilled Bible prophecies ...but here's one that comes to mind...between 700-680bc Isaiah predicted the exact name of the king of Persia, 100 years before he was even born.

It is I who says of Cyrus, 'He is My shepherd!
And he will perform all My desire '
And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built,'
And of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.'" [Isaiah 44:28]

Cyrus became King of Persia about 559BC [link]. Isaiah also predicted that Babylon would conquer Jerusalem and take the Jews captive, then would, in turn, be conquered by the Persians who would allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild it. This prophecy was so accurate and unlikely that most critics assume it must have been written after the events.

“Because the book of Isaiah includes prophecies concerning events during and after the Exile, critical scholars generally attribute portions of the book to one, two, or more prophets in addition to Isaiah (esp. Deutero-Isaiah, chs. 40-55; Trito-Isaiah, chs. 56-66)” (The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, 1987, p. 531).

Which may have been true but I doubt it, because the literary style is consistent throughout Isaiah. Plus the same has been said about other prophecies, and then later proven to be false by discoveries of manuscripts such as the septuagint, written between 285-246BC.

 

[LostViking]

actually I reckon there's good evidence to show that God knew all about germs. Of the 613 biblical commandments found in the Torah, 213 are medical regulations.[link]. In "the history of medicine", Arturo Castiglione wrote "The laws against leprosy in Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation". [link]. It wasn't until late 19th century that doctors would wash their hands between operations, while the bible taught washing in water 3500 years ago,

"And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13).

And it wasn't until the 20th century that doctors went from washing their hands in a bowl of still water, to using "running water", which the bible had already recognised. Also, National Geographic ran a study to find the healthiest people groups in the world, and one of the top 3 were a group of seventh-day adventists who follow a diet that comes straight from biblical teaching.

I believe you are referring to the discoveries of Semmelweiss, who advised doctors to use a chlorinated-lime solution, not water. In fact, this was because the use of soap and water alone was far from sufficient to keep the bacteria and pieces of infected tissue at bay.

In October 1847, a patient was admitted with discharging medullary carcinoma [cancer of the innermost part] of the uterus. She was assigned the bed at which the rounds were always initiated. After examining this patient, those conducting the examination washed their hands with soap only. The consequence was that of twelve patients then delivering, eleven died. The ichor from the discharging medullary carcinoma was not destroyed by soap and water. … Thus, childbed fever is caused not only by cadaverous particles adhering to hands but also by ichor from living organisms.

 

[ptah]

The bible can be tested and scrutinised for its truthfulness using independant sources to a far greater degree than any other holy book. [...]

OK. But bear in mind that the fact that certain parts of the Bible can be verified doesn't proove that the whole Bible contains truth and nothing but the truth. It doesn't automatically validates those parts that cannot be verified. So there are passages we can say for sure are truth and passages that we can say nothing about when it comes to their truthfulness. It's logical, isn't it? Otherwise it's manipulation.

Repeatedly, throughout the bible, God declares that fulfilled prophecy is the way you can know that he is the real God.

So the Bible contains fullfilled prophecies that we cannot be sure if they are really prophecies (they may have been written postfactum). But the Bible says that this is the way for knowing the true god. And you take it for granted. But when Koran says that it's written by god himself you dismiss it saying:

The only evidence the Koran offers for its authority is the Koran itself.

Why?

 

[Doomed2Die]

So if someone has a gun and you don't, that person can decide what's right and wrong?

This being, God, Jehovah, is not human, and has created everything and also has limitless power it is folly to believe we are equal, it simply is not how things are. As with everything else, our purpose is set.

Christians want us to believe that he gets boxed in and has only a few options, but this is absurd. God has limitless power and you can't reconcile that with limited options.

Do you feel if everything was to be "fixed" instantly that it would be the perfect solution? His own son, his only direct creation, died as a human to counter balance Adams sin, a perfect soul for a perfect soul. There are many things you are overlooking.

John 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Committing such horrifying acts can't be twisted into something good no matter who you are. Especially when you're an omnipotent and almighty creature who -should- have the means to guide people rather than obliterate them...

The other alternative was to break free will in one way or another. In the desert with the israelites, those people saw outright "showy" acts of God as he was with them, and STILL rebelled against him. Noah also openly told and preached, not many listened regardless.

Matthew 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

 

[LostViking]

The other alternative was to break free will in one way or another. In the desert with the israelites, those people saw outright "showy" acts of God as he was with them, and STILL rebelled against him. Noah also openly told and preached, not many listened regardless.

Matthew 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

To me, this doesn't add up with god being almighty. Just to simplify things; why did god rather bombard sinners with righteous meteor-storms or tidal waves, than simply prove that he -could- do this if they kept being arsehats?

Furthermore, no matter how perfect god is, and how imperfect humanity happens to be, we should not justify his butchering. Just because you happen to be the creator doesn't allow you to toy around with other/lesser beings. Humans must judge god based on our own nature, not on his. And to be fair, such a being should be resented, defied and fought by humanity rather than worshipped.

 

[Thelema]

yea I'll be honest with you, there's still a lot of stuff in the bible that does my head in. The doctrine of hell for instance! lol!....well I refuse to believe it atm, it's just mental! And the whole question, if God is good then why is their pain and suffering? That bothers me too. So I agree with you on the whole angry old testament God arguements. I don't know why God seemed so harsh in the old testament and then so forgiving in the new....and if it wasn't for all these other evidences in favour of gods existence I'd probably be on the same page as you right now. But because I've seen so many reasons to believe that God is good, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt in the difficult verses. And so the only answer I can give you as to why God would do these seemingly immoral acts, is that God is different to us. God created human beings. He has the power to give life and to take it away. He knows everything, including every intent inside every human heart. We dont. If you took God to court [hypothetically! lol!] you'd definitely have to take his powers into consideration. Also, the first question is still, "does God exist?". Because if that can be proven, then the character of God is a secondary thing. We just have to hope he's a good God. Denying God's existence just because we don't think he's very nice is illogical. You can't hate God and deny his existence simultaneously.



actually I reckon there's good evidence to show that God knew all about germs. Of the 613 biblical commandments found in the Torah, 213 are medical regulations.[link]. In "the history of medicine", Arturo Castiglione wrote "The laws against leprosy in Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation". [link]. It wasn't until late 19th century that doctors would wash their hands between operations, while the bible taught washing in water 3500 years ago,

"And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean" (Leviticus 15:13).

And it wasn't until the 20th century that doctors went from washing their hands in a bowl of still water, to using "running water", which the bible had already recognised. Also, National Geographic ran a study to find the healthiest people groups in the world, and one of the top 3 were a group of seventh-day adventists who follow a diet that comes straight from biblical teaching.

BBC NEWS | Magazine | The towns where people live the longest
Longevity, The Secrets of Long Life - National Geographic Magazine



In 1948 Israel became an independent nation again. 2500 years prior, it was predicted to THE EXACT DAY [apparently!] that this would happen, in Ezekial. I don't know much about this prophecy in Amos, but it doesn't appear to indicate when this will happen. It could well be refering to todays Israel. Maybe todays israelites shall no more be pulled up out of their land?

I've seen your evidence and I can refute every part of it. If you would research these things, instead of only reading what supports it, you would see that what seems now so plausable, has been shot down over and over again. A day of Googling and reading would open huge cracks in the foundation of your belief.

I can hate a fictional being that can think of nothing better than to kill people.

You DO NOT need to take power into consideration when you are deciding what is morally right or wrong and that can only corrupt your thinking. You are arguing might is right.

What is right is right, it doesn't matter if Hitler does it or Gandhi does it; it is irrelevant who the person that perpetrates the act is. Genocide is genocide, it is not not genocide because God does it; to think otherwise is to commit a logical fallacy. If I assume that you see genocide as wrong, then God committing genocide is wrong, if God commits a wrong, then God is wrong.

You're kidding, right? You are telling me that in one passage God tells you to wash your hands and you extrapolate that as he was telling us germ theory? That's ridiculous and I hope you aren't that hopelessly convinced.

It also says that women on their period are unclean and should be avoided, now how does this fit in with your ahead of it's time Bible theory?

I actually know one of those people that eat just like that and he's almost 80 and he looks maybe 50...it's amazing.


I gave you a Bible prophecy proven wrong. God said something would NEVER happen and it has happened many times. I'm not going to argue with you about this; I said I would provide a prophecy that was conclusively wrong and I did and now you're going back on what you said.

 

[Thelema]

This being, God, Jehovah, is not human, and has created everything and also has limitless power

Okay, I will show you how you are simply wrong in your thinking.

Hypothetically, let's say Satan is more powerful than Jehova and Satan created the human species.

Let's also say that in this hypothetical universe Satan has just drowned the World in a giant flood. Does Satan as being THE being that created you and is all powerful make it moral?

 

[this_portrait]

Wow, I'm not even going to read all 67 pages of this thread, because just skimming through the last 2-3 tells me what it primarily all is:: debate; people trying to convince other people that their views are right, and said other people's views are wrong. I have no clue why people get a kick out of that. =/ As great as it would be to have everyone believe in the same thing, it's never going to happen, so there's no point in even debating.

[/End inserting of two cents]

 

[Thelema]

Wow, I'm not even going to read all 67 pages of this thread, because just skimming through the last 2-3 tells me what it primarily all is:: debate; people trying to convince other people that their views are right, and said other people's views are wrong. I have no clue why people get a kick out of that. =/ As great as it would be to have everyone believe in the same thing, it's never going to happen, so there's no point in even debating.

[/End inserting of two cents]

Right, because beliefs don't matter

 

[worrywort]

OK. But bear in mind that the fact that certain parts of the Bible can be verified doesn't proove that the whole Bible contains truth and nothing but the truth.

agreed!

So the Bible contains fullfilled prophecies that we cannot be sure if they are really prophecies (they may have been written postfactum).

No, I reckon we CAN be sure. sorry, I probably didn't do the prophecy much justice with my research skills! But if you can accurately date when things were written and when things were fullfilled then you'd find the truth. For example many of the bible prophecies weren't fulfilled until after the Septuagint [which is the greek translation of the old testament and has been dated 285-246BC]. All of the messianic prophecies for instance. So we can be SURE that the prophecies were written before the time of fullfillment. In fact, there's a book written by Peter Stoner, where he works out the probability that any man could fulfill just 8 of the over 300 messianic prophecies, either accidentily or manipulatively and it comes to 1 in 100000000000000000 [10^17]. And the probability of fulfilling just 48 comes to one in 10^157! The book is free to read online - here -

 

[worrywort]

You're kidding, right? You are telling me that in one passage God tells you to wash your hands and you extrapolate that as he was telling us germ theory? That's ridiculous and I hope you aren't that hopelessly convinced.

I believe you are referring to the discoveries of Semmelweiss, who advised doctors to use a chlorinated-lime solution, not water. In fact, this was because the use of soap and water alone was far from sufficient to keep the bacteria and pieces of infected tissue at bay.

In October 1847, a patient was admitted with discharging medullary carcinoma [cancer of the innermost part] of the uterus. She was assigned the bed at which the rounds were always initiated. After examining this patient, those conducting the examination washed their hands with soap only. The consequence was that of twelve patients then delivering, eleven died. The ichor from the discharging medullary carcinoma was not destroyed by soap and water. … Thus, childbed fever is caused not only by cadaverous particles adhering to hands but also by ichor from living organisms.

oh really? lol! shit! well that's wiki vs the various sources I heard that story from! Sorry I was rushed when replying and just wanted to grab a few links that might start to hint at the medical accuracy of the bible. I've not actually looked much into this area of evidence to be honest, but it's there to be tested right? There are tons of medical regulations in the old testament. If God is God you'd expect a majority would match up with current scientific findings. I think I might look into this further!

 

[worrywort]

Wow, I'm not even going to read all 67 pages of this thread, because just skimming through the last 2-3 tells me what it primarily all is:: debate; people trying to convince other people that their views are right, and said other people's views are wrong. I have no clue why people get a kick out of that. =/ As great as it would be to have everyone believe in the same thing, it's never going to happen, so there's no point in even debating.

[/End inserting of two cents]

I was just thinking the same thing! lol! I do wonder sometimes if anybody is actually changed at the end of all these debates?!

I think for me the reason why I love talking about all this stuff is because it cuts right to the root of a person. At the root of every person there is a core belief about the nature of the universe, whether we realise it or not, and I think it may well be the most important thing about a person, because all other branches grow from that root. But this is also probably why these debates can get quite heated, because we're dealing with people's core beliefs here, so it's a very sensitive terrain to be treading. Plus it's just the truth! I LOVE IT! I love exploring it and debating it and testing it! and life is just so mental, and we're all gonna die one day and I just love exploring this possibility that there may really be a God! I find it all so exciting! but that's just me!

I have a theory actually, for those who'd like to hear it! .....I'm beginning to think that the world view that a person chooses to align with is more of a moral desicion than it is an intellectual one. Any honest seeker of the truth will admit that there is plenty of intellectual material for both sides of the story. There have been giants of the atheistic world and giants of the theistic world. But before opening any book or looking at any internet page I believe inside everybody is a pre-conceived bias. If I don't want to believe that there is a God, I'm sure I could feel very secure with my Dawkins books and my materialistic hat on. Equally, if I want to believe in God I can feel very secure with my CS Lewis books and my prophetic hat on......but I'll happily be the first to admit that I have a bias. I WANT to believe in God. Of course my pride, logic and integrity keeps me in check so that I could never believe in anything I knew was a lie, but when I find pieces of significant evidence that point towards God, I follow them with all my heart.

So if there is any good that comes out of these debates, I'd really like it if people, next time they open a theological book or read a scientific internet page, that they'd check their heart before hand and see if there are any pre conceived ideas already made before beginning the search.

 

[Doomed2Die]

Furthermore, no matter how perfect god is, and how imperfect humanity happens to be, we should not justify his butchering. Just because you happen to be the creator doesn't allow you to toy around with other/lesser beings. Humans must judge god based on our own nature, not on his. And to be fair, such a being should be resented, defied and fought by humanity rather than worshipped.

That's completely out of context, there are a great deal of things partly already mentioned.

I see what you mean about the killing yes, but God is god he is the judge we are not, it's not a matter of choice it is simple law. There is alot more subjects tied to the matter however, much like everything in the bible. (for example, the offspring of angels-now-demons, nephilim who were around before the flood) To base such huge judgements on a few passages is... well rather premature.

Of course, this is all assuming your posts are not some strawman situation. In which case, I have nothing to say.

Okay, I will show you how you are simply wrong in your thinking.

Hypothetically, let's say Satan is more powerful than Jehova and Satan created the human species.

Let's also say that in this hypothetical universe Satan has just drowned the World in a giant flood. Does Satan as being THE being that created you and is all powerful make it moral?

Hmm? You see your missing a book or several here explaining how this "satan" sacrificed and gave freely out of unconditional and undeserving love as well as many many events along with telling how he happens to be the source of life and joy. Also to mention that said being is perfect and cannot lie.

And you know, reasons as to do such a thing. What I was mentioning was simply the postion that God has, in comparison to our own. To answer the question though, assuming everything else is the same, well... I have in that case already answered.

That would be a very bizzare reality however considering the name Satan literally means "adversary" or somesuch. Heh.

I wonder though what the point of your question was. To expose some raging hate/fear of the name 'Satan'? Or do you mean the same Satan in reality? I can answer that too, such a universe is impossible.

So if there is any good that comes out of these debates, I'd really like it if people, next time they open a theological book or read a scientific internet page, that they'd check their heart before hand and see if there are any pre conceived ideas already made before beginning the search.

Very good advice for anyone. I pray that you yourself will find the truth you are looking for.