My two conflicting views on life

[SickJoke]

The human mind is something that has always fascinated me. Our emotional circuitry is particularly amazing. It's interesting how a tragic event can remind you of a painful memory, which reminds you of another, and another. The memories are always stored there, in your file system of a brain, under the category DEPRESSION, or SADNESS, or DESPAIR. Once something triggers you to feel a certain emotion, the corresponding category is accessed, and the contents are played in your mind, just like you're watching a series of home movies.

The fun part about being human is that your mind often contradicts itself. Your emotions might insist that you should be depressed, while your logic tells you that being depressed is an absurd waste of time and energy. Unfortunately, emotions are usually much more powerful than logic. We'll often follow our emotions, and later backwards rationalize our actions with logic. We're a clever species aren't we?

I've recently gotten news about a friend of mine, which has reminded me of my biggest personal, unsolved conflict: my two conflicting views on life. Let me say that I'm an analytical, logical, scientific person, so please don't mention religion or any other fairy tales in this thread. If you wish to argue for your religion go to RichardDawkins.net Forum • Index page and your argument will soon be demolished - I don't want to debate religion here.

Overcoming social anxiety, for me, was a matter of replacing limiting beliefs with empowering ones, by using research and exposure - trial and error. Some of these beliefs, such as "I am inferior, everyone hates me, I make people uncomfortable," etc. weren't easy to change, but through self improvement and exposure, it was possible. However, there's one conflict I have yet to solve - I don't know if I ever will - and it's the most important conflict of all: the meaning of life. It's as if my inner optimist, who usually wins, is battling my inner pessimist.

Optimist Side:

I am privileged to be alive. It took billions of years to lead to this moment - an UNIMAGINABLE number of events had to happen perfectly for me to exist. Life is a fun challenge. I see my purpose in life as clear as day: to reduce as much human suffering as I possibly can, every day, in any way, until the day I die.

Pessimist Side:

"Purpose in life" is a figment of imagination, the direct result of our highly evolved critical thinking skills. As humans we searched for purpose in our environment, because it was beneficial to our survival: "What purpose can I find for that sharp rock?" etc. The planet earth, let alone our individual lives, might as well be a grain of sand compared to the vastness of the universe. We are ultimately insignificant. All of our endeavors will eventually be destroyed with the end of the universe - in reality, much, much sooner than that. We are highly evolved, biological, social robots, evolutionarily designed to perform a series of tasks to reach an objective that is no different from any other form of life: survive and replicate.

So there's my dilemma. Most of the time I stay positive, but as you can see from my user name, deep down I see life as a sick joke. I hope this was at least an interesting read

 

[sabbath9]

The human mind evolved to be "pessimistic". It's main job is to catalog everything that can hurt us, and replay these warnings constantly. CBT seems to change your thoughts, but only short-term. If you want help dealing with your brain long-term maybe you could try ACT.

 

[Kamen]

I've been asking myself about the purpose of life for long time, too. Glad to see someone else asking the same question.

Just as you, I am not religious. I am logical, somewhat spiritual, with open mind and no fear of imagination.

Answering this question is a quite difficult task, if not the most difficult of all. Some of the greatest minds passed by us without discovering the answer. Anyway, I am going to throw a few thoughts...

You are talking about the optimist side and the pessimist side. Here is a little tale:
In a tunnel, the pessimist sees the endless darkness. The optimist can see the light in the tunnel. The realist also sees the coming train. So... what does the realist side say?

Why should those thoughts be pessimistic or optimistic at all? What are pessimism and optimism, good and bad in the Universe and do they make any sense? Is there really a purpose? I'd say purpose is a category of the mind that is based upon the perceived cause-effect relationship and describes a certain plan to cause effects. If causality exists at all or is illusory is another big, big question I won't go into here, but if it doesn't, then we are far more delusional than we think.
Pessimism and optimism, good and bad rise around this as inventions of the mind. So... I prefer to observe and minimize judging.
And if the Universe is not a plan of a mind, I'd say there is no purpose. It is just happening.

On this line, I started to write about reality, but maybe I'll go far too deep. I can write it later anyway. What I want to add is that I am not convinced THIS is real. It looks and feels like real, but all this doesn't make it real.

To be continued...

 

[SickJoke]

The human mind evolved to be "pessimistic". It's main job is to catalog everything that can hurt us, and replay these warnings constantly. CBT seems to change your thoughts, but only short-term. If you want help dealing with your brain long-term maybe you could try ACT.

How is that relevant to this thread?

I've been asking myself about the purpose of life for long time, too. Glad to see someone else asking the same question.

Just as you, I am not religious. I am logical, somewhat spiritual, with open mind and no fear of imagination.

Answering this question is a quite difficult task, if not the most difficult of all. Some of the greatest minds passed by us without discovering the answer. Anyway, I am going to throw a few thoughts...

You are talking about the optimist side and the pessimist side. Here is a little tale:
In a tunnel, the pessimist sees the endless darkness. The optimist can see the light in the tunnel. The realist also sees the coming train. So... what does the realist side say?

Why should those thoughts be pessimistic or optimistic at all? What are pessimism and optimism, good and bad in the Universe and do they make any sense? Is there really a purpose? I'd say purpose is a category of the mind that is based upon the perceived cause-effect relationship and describes a certain plan to cause effects. If causality exists at all or is illusory is another big, big question I won't go into here, but if it doesn't, then we are far more delusional than we think.
Pessimism and optimism, good and bad rise around this as inventions of the mind. So... I prefer to observe and minimize judging.
And if the Universe is not a plan of a mind, I'd say there is no purpose. It is just happening.

On this line, I started to write about reality, but maybe I'll go far too deep. I can write it later anyway. What I want to add is that I am not convinced THIS is real. It looks and feels like real, but all this doesn't make it real.

To be continued...

Thanks, I agree with most of what you said. However, I do consider myself first and foremost a realist, I know the universe is indifferent. But that doesn't change the fact that as humans we have pessimistic and optimistic views on things.

I don't expect anything to be resolved in this thread, just wanted to share my thoughts.

Please expand on your thoughts on reality. Are you a solipsist?

 

[bleach]

The human mind evolved to be "pessimistic". It's main job is to catalog everything that can hurt us, and replay these warnings constantly. CBT seems to change your thoughts, but only short-term. If you want help dealing with your brain long-term maybe you could try ACT.

sabbath,

I agree with the first part of your post. But have you ever considered that perhaps different therapies might be useful to different kinds of people?

 

[SickJoke]

This thread isn't even about social anxiety, so any form of therapy is irrelevant

 

[sabbath9]

I have a lot of pessimistic thoughts too. I tried to change them using CBT, but failed. Then I realized it doesn't really matter what my thoughts are. Instead I concentrated on my values. And in taking committed action regardless of my thoughts, feelings etc. I'm just saying it's a different perspective on the optimist / pessimist battle. Instead of taking sides I become an observer.

 

[saen]

Pessimist Side:

"Purpose in life" is a figment of imagination, the direct result of our highly evolved critical thinking skills. As humans we searched for purpose in our environment, because it was beneficial to our survival: "What purpose can I find for that sharp rock?" etc. The planet earth, let alone our individual lives, might as well be a grain of sand compared to the vastness of the universe. We are ultimately insignificant. All of our endeavors will eventually be destroyed with the end of the universe - in reality, much, much sooner than that. We are highly evolved, biological, social robots, evolutionarily designed to perform a series of tasks to reach an objective that is no different from any other form of life: survive and replicate.

So there's my dilemma. Most of the time I stay positive, but as you can see from my user name, deep down I see life as a sick joke. I hope this was at least an interesting read

I would describe myself as an Atheist, but like Kamen, I am somewhat spiritual.

As I see it, I create the purpose behind my own life - I choose what to strive for. This, for me, is the most beautiful thing of all. Life is my quest, my journey, my experience - thank god there's no higher purpose telling me what to do with my life - this is freedom.

The very vastness of the universe makes me feel completely at peace, as my body is made from the products of ancient stars; I am no different from the earth I step on. From the earth I was made, into the earth my body will disintegrate. I cannot be destroyed, as I am made of matter; "I" will just change form.

There's a beautiful little story I read a few years ago, and it has stuck in my mind ever since:

The Master claimed that the world most people see is not the world of reality, but a world their head creates.

When a scholar came to dispute this, the master set two sticks on the floor in the form of the letter "T" and asked: "What do you see here?"

"The letter "T"," said the scholar.

"Just as I thought," said the master. "There's no such thing as a letter "T"; that's a symbol in your head. What you have here is two broken branches in the form of sticks."

Just a little story that makes look at life differently.

On this line, I started to write about reality, but maybe I'll go far too deep. I can write it later anyway. What I want to add is that I am not convinced THIS is real. It looks and feels like real, but all this doesn't make it real.

To be continued...

Ha, I am of the same opinion, but I'd be interested in what you have to say.

 

[j_brown2]

There is no objectiv reality, everyones view of the world is different,

 

[cosmosis]

I don't think it needs to be conflicting. You can see the universe as possibly cruel and indifferent to you, but at the same time realize that we are all in this together and we should all be there for eachother regardless of where it ultimately takes us.

 

[SickJoke]

I have a lot of pessimistic thoughts too. I tried to change them using CBT, but failed. Then I realized it doesn't really matter what my thoughts are. Instead I concentrated on my values. And in taking committed action regardless of my thoughts, feelings etc. I'm just saying it's a different perspective on the optimist / pessimist battle. Instead of taking sides I become an observer.

I would say the meaning of life IS a value, not just some irrational thought that can be fixed with ACT or any form of therapy.

I would describe myself as an Atheist, but like Kamen, I am somewhat spiritual.

As I see it, I create the purpose behind my own life - I choose what to strive for. This, for me, is the most beautiful thing of all. Life is my quest, my journey, my experience - thank god there's no higher purpose telling me what to do with my life - this is freedom.

Agreed, but looking further ahead we can see that any of our imagined purposes will ultimately be in vain. Anything we build, anything we discover, anyone we influence will eventually be destroyed.

In the end, the only reason we do anything is for our own selfish satisfaction. Even when we help someone else, we get personal satisfaction from it.

The very vastness of the universe makes me feel completely at peace, as my body is made from the products of ancient stars; I am no different from the earth I step on. From the earth I was made, into the earth my body will disintegrate. I cannot be destroyed, as I am made of matter; "I" will just change form.

Agreed, I've thought of that as well and it's a very comforting thought.

There's a beautiful little story I read a few years ago, and it has stuck in my mind ever since:

The Master claimed that the world most people see is not the world of reality, but a world their head creates.

When a scholar came to dispute this, the master set two sticks on the floor in the form of the letter "T" and asked: "What do you see here?"

"The letter "T"," said the scholar.

"Just as I thought," said the master. "There's no such thing as a letter "T"; that's a symbol in your head. What you have here is two broken branches in the form of sticks."

Just a little story that makes look at life differently.

That is a nice little story, thanks for the well-thought post

There is no objectiv reality, everyones view of the world is different,

There is an objective reality. However all of us have our own maps of the world. None of our maps is the actual territory

I don't think it needs to be conflicting. You can see the universe as possibly cruel and indifferent to you, but at the same time realize that we are all in this together and we should all be there for eachother regardless of where it ultimately takes us.

That's a very positive way of looking at things, thanks for that

 

[j_brown2]

My point was no one can see the objective reality, everyone makes up his own reality... so no point in trying to figure out what reality is, just live your life to the fullest lol

 

[SickJoke]

My point was no one can see the objective reality, everyone makes up his own reality... so no point in trying to figure out what reality is, just live your life to the fullest lol

Yeah agreed kinda. Although the truth is very important to me, and science brings us closer to understanding reality.

 

[Sure_whynot]

I don't think it needs to be conflicting. You can see the universe as possibly cruel and indifferent to you, but at the same time realize that we are all in this together and we should all be there for eachother regardless of where it ultimately takes us.

This is religion, people helping people and banding together through hope and love. Even if its all fake (not saying it is, not saying it isnt) they will still have loved each other and nothing is worth more.



"Reality" is only defined by those who care to exist in a place that they can control. Control comes from Understanding. Understanding gives us: Not religion but still reason to live.

I say have fun, because morals dont exist and in 80-120 years when everyone in our generation is dead.... your "plans for this summer" will matter even less.

 

[newbie]

i've thought about this a few times too and

i don't think there is one, we are just like other creatures/animals on this planet..what is their meaning?
they don't have one, we get born, need necessities to live and reproduce to continue the human race. i don't think there is a specific reason for our existance, i don't think you as in you were born on this planet to carry out a specific job or something like that
we just exist with life because of chemical processes and this is the same for any other living thing on the planet

so yeah, i don't think there is a reason from the big picture

 

[Lea]

To me today, the most complete philosophy of life is not science, not religion, but mentalism.

Notebooks of Paul Brunton

Mentalism - Notebooks of Paul Brunton

 

[SickJoke]

I say have fun, because morals dont exist and in 80-120 years when everyone in our generation is dead.... your "plans for this summer" will matter even less.

Morals certainly do exist. Objective morality doesn't, but If you've ever felt guilty about anything in your life, that was your very real sense of morality. Otherwise I agree: have fun

i've thought about this a few times too and

i don't think there is one, we are just like other creatures/animals on this planet..what is their meaning?
they don't have one, we get born, need necessities to live and reproduce to continue the human race. i don't think there is a specific reason for our existance, i don't think you as in you were born on this planet to carry out a specific job or something like that
we just exist with life because of chemical processes and this is the same for any other living thing on the planet

so yeah, i don't think there is a reason from the big picture

Yep that's the truth, that's kind of what I said in the original post.

To me today, the most complete philosophy of life is not science, not religion, but mentalism.

Browsing through those links I have to say that's an absurd philosophy. A couple of quotes that struck me particularly:

The notion that one's own brain originates all one's own thoughts is shallow and erroneous. It may originate most of them in most cases, but only some of them in other cases. Four possible sources are one's physical surroundings, other people's thought directed to one, one's mental-emotional surroundings, and other people's mental-emotional atmosphere (aura) as it impinges on our own when brought close together.

Our surroundings are simply stimuli to which our brain responds. As for "other people's thought directed to one"... just wow. We communicate subtly through body language, not telepathically. This is really just some superstitious nonsense.

It is absolutely certain and quite unquestionable that consciousness is primary, the beginning of all things, the only God there could be and the only one there has ever been. If anyone doubts it, it is because he is blinded, so does not see; he is befogged, so does not understand. From what or from whom else did he derive his own consciousness, his knowing power, and his thinking capacity?

We derived our thinking capacity, including consciousness, through a slow process of evolution by natural selection. I can understand their ignorance, because of this:

One thousand years ago the doctrine of mentalism was taught at Angkor, according to an inscription of that time which I saw there, the inscription of Srey Santhor. It likened the appearance of the doctrine in the world of faith and culture to the sun bringing back the light.

The doctrine is 1000 years old. This was when science was nowhere near its modern capabilities. So some of it was an interesting read but it's clearly nonsense.



Anyway thanks to everyone for the responses, but I was happy to let this thread die a month ago. When I created the thread I had recently lost a friend of mine and was reminded of my inner conflict. I realize existential angst is something I'll never be rid of, so it's best not to dwell on it

 

[Doomed2Die]

I have never understood how one can separate spiritualism from religion as it is one and the same, or at least it's the point of religion. It's an obvious need of humanity that is much of a part of life as breathing. It's purpose.

My thoughts are, without reason without purpose there is nothing, the artist cannot create without inspiration, without imagination and application, things do not simply come to be. The laws of nature are followed rigidly by the world and it's animals, beasts and weather cultivate the earth and it itself heals and mantains itself overtime, so very much in tune, even the smallest seed can be so very meaningful. It's very, very finely tuned as proven by science also, with the smallest change in a temperature or differing frequency can cause world ending events.

Consider the very purpose of everything, the balance, humanity is not some force of chaos admist perfect order, surely if everything else in the universe has a purpose mankind has one too?

Yes, I believe in a creator, it simply makes sense. Because balance and law must be maintained, much like any man-made machine must be, like anything must be.

The bible wonderfully enough is a user guidebook to life, written by man for man under the guidance and inspiration of a sentient creator, Yahweh. It exists against several reasons to tell us of purpose and reason.

"Observe intently the birds of heaven, because they do not sow seed or reap or gather into storehouses; still YOUR heavenly Father feeds them. Are YOU not worth more than they are?" (Matthew 6:26 NWT)

 

[Lea]

To be dogmatically scientific is the same as being dogmatically religious. I´ve read all books of P. B. and it is not a nonsense but it´s up to everybody what he wants to think. You even didn´t read it I suppose, only picked some random quotes in order to deny it. It´s easy to condemn something, not even give it time and open mind and try to understand it.

In my opinion, there is no objective reality. We can use science in order to help us in daily life, and in a limited part of space and time, but once we get behind it science is powerless. How do you explain the wastness of universe (space) - it has NO end. It cannot be measured, it´s neverending. And time has no end. It´s only us who use time for practical purposes but in REALITY there is no time. Because space and time have no end, we have no real reference points to hold on to and define clearly what reality is.
Our existence now seems real to us, things seem to be made of solid matter, which if we go to the core of it is illusion. It appears real, but is some kind of illusion (by this I don´t want to say it is meaningless but it would be a different chapter). If we analyze matter and take it into parts, we get to atoms and electrons, we´ll find out that these particles aren´t material, it´s said matter is just dense energy - the quicker it vibrates, the more solid matter appears.
Quote: The physical world, the world of objects and matter, is made up of nothing but information contained in energy vibrating at different frequencies. The reason we don´t see the world as a huge web of energy is that it is vibrating far too fast. Our senses, because they function so slowly, are able to register only chunks of this energy and acting, and these clusters of information become "the chair", "my body", "water" and every other physical object in the visible universe. D. Chopra

Also time is endless - therefore if it´s endless, there is no time. Only we perceive it in our small part of space/time (this can be a proof that space/time is created by us) and it helps us to live our practical lives. But in fact there is no objective time and we and our lives are illusions. Are and aren´t at the same time, it´s kind of paradox but I think every REAL thing is paradox. That life and this world is just kind of mental construction can be judged also according to this: what is past, what is future? Can you grasp it in any way? No. All that is left from it is thoughts, memories and they are not material. The material reality disappears as soon as we proceed into the future. If past is just thought, future is thought, what is the present? Thought as well. And if it is thought, it can be nothing objectively real. Therefore I think the outside world is no objective reality separated from us, it is also some kind of mental construction and PART of us. The consciousness and thoughts create the outside reality, which we are part of and NOT separate from it, not that our bodies and brains create thoughts which perceive some separate, real outside world. It also probably isn´t true, that conscience dies with the death of our body and brain...

What I forgot to say is, I think universe has no beginning, no end not only in space, but also in time. It was never created and will never be destroyed - it will always be there.

 

[madmike]

Let me say that I'm an analytical, logical, scientific person, so please don't mention religion or any other fairy tales in this thread. If you wish to argue for your religion go to RichardDawkins.net Forum • Index page and your argument will soon be demolished - I don't want to debate religion here.

A bit harsh, isn't it? Especially since your optimistic thoughts about ending human suffering stem from Buddhist beliefs! Though i don't follow any specific religion, i think it certainly deserves respect, for imparting faith and wisdom on people and avoiding dilemas such as yours (a religious person will never have your pessimistic thoughts, since for them the purpose in life is to be and do the bidding of their God/religion)