My two conflicting views on life

[SickJoke]

A bit harsh, isn't it? Especially since your optimistic thoughts about ending human suffering stem from Buddhist beliefs! Though i don't follow any specific religion, i think it certainly deserves respect, for imparting faith and wisdom on people and avoiding dilemas such as yours (a religious person will never have your pessimistic thoughts, since for them the purpose in life is to be and do the bidding of their God/religion)

No, my thoughts about suffering stem from my own innate morality and have nothing at all to do with Buddhism or any other religion. Religion is blind faith, and blind faith deserves no respect whatsoever. As I said, I don't wish to debate religion or any other blind faith claims here, so thanks anyway Doomed and Lea.

So let me say again: thanks to everyone for the responses, but I was happy to let this thread die a month ago. When I created the thread I had recently lost a friend of mine and was reminded of my inner conflict. I realize existential angst is something I'll never be rid of, so it's best not to dwell on it

 

[Sure_whynot]

Consider the very purpose of everything, the balance, humanity is not some force of chaos admist perfect order, surely if everything else in the universe has a purpose mankind has one too?

I somewhat agree except. Everything else in the universe (that we can understand) has reason, not purpose. They are very different things, and so continues the never ending arguments of God vs. Science.

A bit harsh, isn't it? Especially since your optimistic thoughts about ending human suffering stem from Buddhist beliefs! Though i don't follow any specific religion, i think it certainly deserves respect, for imparting faith and wisdom on people and avoiding dilemas such as yours (a religious person will never have your pessimistic thoughts, since for them the purpose in life is to be and do the bidding of their God/religion)

I agree that It is a bit harsh, but he's just making his point. Legitimate threads are rare when people spam junk messages like "he is with you, even if you dont know it", omg ur goin 2 hell, etc.

I cant think of any religion that doesn't support optimistic thinking or ending human suffering. Its one of those slightly obvious goals that we all share, religious or not.

Your multi-religious views credit the God's with things that cant be proven in any way shape or form. Where you see religion, others see probability or logic. You describe such a simple religious life, as if god were to free you from all intellectual thought. I'll tell you thats not for everyone.

I will not go into my personal beliefs any farther. But I will say that I do value religion for many very logical reasons (even if i am/am not a believer). Religion promotes good behaviors, positive influences, and other morally correct values that add to the wellness of humanity on a global scale. Even a non-believer can admire all of the good that comes from Religion, regardless of if they believe or not.

 

[SickJoke]

All right since this thread keeps getting bumped I might as well respond.

The laws of nature are followed rigidly by the world and it's animals, beasts and weather cultivate the earth and it itself heals and mantains itself overtime, so very much in tune, even the smallest seed can be so very meaningful. It's very, very finely tuned as proven by science also, with the smallest change in a temperature or differing frequency can cause world ending events.

You've got it backwards. The laws of the universe were set by the big bang. It's not that "the universe was tuned to suit life," but rather life needed to evolve according to the conditions on earth, otherwise it wouldn't survive.

Consider the very purpose of everything, the balance, humanity is not some force of chaos admist perfect order, surely if everything else in the universe has a purpose mankind has one too?

It depends on what you mean by purpose? The biological purpose of mankind is to survive and reproduce - the same as all other forms of life. Are you hinting toward some other, perhaps spiritual, purpose?

Yes, I believe in a creator, it simply makes sense. Because balance and law must be maintained, much like any man-made machine must be, like anything must be.

The natural laws are responsible for keeping things in order. Where does the need for something supernatural come into play?

The bible wonderfully enough is a user guidebook to life, written by man for man under the guidance and inspiration of a sentient creator, Yahweh. It exists against several reasons to tell us of purpose and reason.

The bible a guidebook to life? That's laughable. Have you read it? Here's a small taste of the wonders of the bible:

"They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses." Numbers 15:32-56

Should we stone people to death for working on Sundays? That's one of the rules in your guidebook.

How about burning people to death?

"If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." Leviticus 20:14

There are plenty other lovely passages I could mention. I always get a good laugh when someone says the bible sets a good example of morality. Most of the time they haven't even read it.

 

[Doomed2Die]

You've got it backwards. The laws of the universe were set by the big bang. It's not that "the universe was tuned to suit life," but rather life needed to evolve according to the conditions on earth, otherwise it wouldn't survive.

No purpose, nothing but chance, nothing but unanswered life and harmony for absoloutely no reason. Why do I think it has to have a reason? Look around you, everything from a pen to the moon has a purpose. It's a law of the universe.

It depends on what you mean by purpose? The biological purpose of mankind is to survive and reproduce - the same as all other forms of life. Are you hinting toward some other, perhaps spiritual, purpose?

No other creature has free will, as it is, there is no greater candidate as a gardener or keeper of earth than man.

The natural laws are responsible for keeping things in order. Where does the need for something supernatural come into play?

What would make the creator of something any less natural than the object itself? In effect, the natural laws are his will in action.

The bible a guidebook to life? That's laughable. Have you read it? Here's a small taste of the wonders of the bible:

"They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses." Numbers 15:32-56

Should we stone people to death for working on Sundays? That's one of the rules in your guidebook.

How about burning people to death?

"If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." Leviticus 20:14

There are plenty other lovely passages I could mention. I always get a good laugh when someone says the bible sets a good example of morality. Most of the time they haven't even read it.

Indeed, it is a good example of morality. The Mosiac laws was very much so serious. An eye for an eye prehaps, or soul for soul. This was due to the sacrifce by Jesus Christ not having took place yet, which "paid" for all mans sin originating from the original sin, including sin yet to take place by imperfect man.

Man's adherence to Law/principles by Jehovah God is the purest form of morality, considering he created us and knows what is both good and bad (for us). Consider prehaps the marriage and family system also.

Of course since the Christian congregation was established it is much different now, heh however considering your reply I gather you would be less than interested in further teachings unfortunately. Should you be interested however, this is a good topic.The “Old Testament”: “Written for Our Instruction” - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

I may only be studying at the moment, but im not clueless to what the bible is and what it contains, there is no need to take things out of context of their peroid and setting.

Where you see religion, others see probability or logic. You describe such a simple religious life, as if god were to free you from all intellectual thought.

It is more of a new light of vision than simplifying life, prehaps it is that the biblical answers are more clear and straight forward than theory. Trust me on this however, there is no loss of intellectual pursuits by a long shot, more of the reverse as there is alot to build on. A rough example, many scientists believe in creation but it does not stop or prevent them from doing what they do.

 

[SickJoke]

No purpose, nothing but chance, nothing but unanswered life and harmony for absoloutely no reason. Why do I think it has to have a reason? Look around you, everything from a pen to the moon has a purpose. It's a law of the universe.

A pen has a purpose for us, because we designed it to fit our needs. There is no reason to believe the moon is anything more than a cosmic accident.

No other creature has free will, as it is, there is no greater candidate as a gardener or keeper of earth than man.

Define free will. If we're using this definition: "The ability or discretion to choose; free choice" -dictionary.com, then all other animals have it as well.

What would make the creator of something any less natural than the object itself? In effect, the natural laws are his will in action.

Because this "creator" would have to be above the natural laws. What makes you think the natural laws need some "creator"? Why can't they just be?

Indeed, it is a good example of morality. The Mosiac laws was very much so serious. An eye for an eye prehaps, or soul for soul. This was due to the sacrifce by Jesus Christ not having took place yet, which "paid" for all mans sin originating from the original sin, including sin yet to take place by imperfect man.

Did you completely ignore the examples I cited for you? Stoning someone to death for working on Sunday is a moral action in your eyes?

 

[Doomed2Die]

I am not familiar with the specific scripture on the stoning, but it all boils down to Adam and Eve and what a creator and ruler is entitled to do.

Adam and Eve for example was told of the consquences of eating from the tree, it represented God’s right as Ruler to decide what is good and bad for his human creation. Due to the lies of Satan and simple choice they decided to eat from it in an act to obtain moral independence, effectively attacking the creators title and headship.

This particual siutation involed the neglection of the Sabbath, a day of worship, a holy day. Most notably it was one of the ten commandments handed down to Moses by Jehovah.

To tie the link, it's not up to humanity to decide what is good and bad, but rather the creator. To go against this is to go against God's sovereignty itself, hence the strong punishments. As an israelite the stoned man in question almost certaintly witnessed great and direct acts and signs from Jehovah, he decided his fate by not following them.

Define free will. If we're using this definition: "The ability or discretion to choose; free choice" -dictionary.com, then all other animals have it as well.

An animals choice is dictated by instinct, a man's choices are not.

 

[SickJoke]

I am not familiar with the specific scripture on the stoning, but it all boils down to Adam and Eve and what a creator and ruler is entitled to do.

Adam and Eve for example was told of the consquences of eating from the tree, it represented God’s right as Ruler to decide what is good and bad for his human creation. Due to the lies of Satan and simple choice they decided to eat from it in an act to obtain moral independence, effectively attacking the creators title and headship.

This particual siutation involed the neglection of the Sabbath, a day of worship, a holy day. Most notably it was one of the ten commandments handed down to Moses by Jehovah.

To tie the link, it's not up to humanity to decide what is good and bad, but rather the creator. To go against this is to go against God's sovereignty itself, hence the strong punishments. As an israelite the stoned man in question almost certaintly witnessed great and direct acts and signs from Jehovah, he decided his fate by not following them.

So you think a fair punishment for working on Sunday is to be stoned to death?

An animals choice is dictated by instinct, a man's choices are not.

Not true. Other animals are also capable of learning.

 

[Lea]

SickJoke how do you know that universe was created by Big Bang? Are there any proofs? And in that case, what was there BEFORE universe? How can something be created of nothing? The rule in the universe and natural law is, every created thing has a creator. To believe something came out of nothing is even more foolish than to believe that "universe was created by God". I think God is all and nothing at the same time, has no beginning and no end, therefore couldn´t create - it has always been there because God is unlimited. It is the biggest power that can exist and at the same time the biggest void and nothingness. 2 opposites at the same time - paradox - that is where we come to if we seek for ultimate truth. Paul Brunton calls God "world idea" because God is a thought, some kind of highly evolved consciousness. Also, how come this world is so unbelievably intelligent (as Doomed said). How could something intelligent like this be created by pure chance - if you take a box full of autoparts and keep shaking it 100 millions of years, no car will come out of it. Intelligent creation needs an intelligent creator. Same if you apply this to evolution. Sure everything was perfected through evolution, but the force behind it was pretty intelligent otherwise evolution couldn´t happen. (Besides perhaps isn´t even true that we evolved from apes and cavemen, because there have been much more highly evolved cultures before us).
Also, this world and every creation is based on polarities - otherwise it couldn´t exist. So there was no way God could create this world, unless he created polarities. Our purpose now if we want to leave this world is to seek the way out of being enslaved by polarities - by being enslaved by our desires and addictions, moods and emotions, greed, envy, dependence etc. etc. Be indifferent to critic or praise, good or bad times, loss etc. I think we need to create some form of inner peace which wouldn´t be disturbed by any outside influences. It is kind of indifference but not ignorance or laziness, it means to be indifferent and yet highly aware and conscious - paradox again. Way to this inner peace is said to be meditation and if we proceed far enough, ultimately we become one with God and this doesn´t mean only to "melt in Nirvana", but at the same time obtain the highest consciousness possible. This is in my opinion the only way out of polarities and suffering of this world - suicide won´t help because only body dies but the consciousness stays the same with the same unresolved problems.

 

[SickJoke]

SickJoke how do you know that universe was created by Big Bang? Are there any proofs?

All evidence points to it. It is the worldwide accepted scientific theory. Some simple googling can provide an explanation.

And in that case, what was there BEFORE universe? How can something be created of nothing?

The universe was condensed to a tiny, incredibly dense singularity - smaller than an atom. That singularity may have existed forever, it's impossible to know for sure.

The rule in the universe and natural law is, every created thing has a creator. To believe something came out of nothing is even more foolish than to believe that "universe was created by God". I think God is all and nothing at the same time, has no beginning and no end, therefore couldn´t create - it has always be there because God is unlimited.

So if we don't have an exhaustive explanation for something, immediately we say "god did it"? When you apply those eternal properties to a god, you're just ADDING another, more complex step. Why not just say the universe itself is eternal?

Sorry if I missed something in your post, it was hard to read without paragraphs.

 

[Argamemnon]

That singularity may have existed forever, it's impossible to know for sure.

That's very illogical. Where science fails, and in my opinion will always fail to explain, is the beginning of life. It's impossible for "something" to come into being out of "nothing". Nothing does not and can not become something. I can't prove to you that the creator was God (although I'm a strong believer), and I will never be able to do so. But science will also never be able to explain the beginning of life.

 

[SickJoke]

How could something intelligent like this be created by pure chance - if you take a box full of autoparts and keep shaking it 100 millions of years, no car will come out of it. Intelligent creation needs an intelligent creator. Same if you apply this to evolution. Sure everything was perfected through evolution, but the force behind it was pretty intelligent otherwise evolution couldn´t happen.

That's not how evolution works. There's no driving force for those autoparts to assemble themselves. Evolution is driven by natural selection. The gene mutation is random, but the genes that can't survive and reproduce are quickly weeded out.

 

[Lea]

So if we don't have an exhaustive explanation for something, immediately we say "god did it"? When you apply those eternal properties to a god, you're just ADDING another, more complex step. Why not just say the universe itself is eternal?

I realize this. I think there is no other way than God (universe) being eternal, otherwise it wouldn´t make to me any sense. How was this world created then? And was it created at all? It is and isn´t an illusion at the same time, perhaps some form of thought. For example it doesn´t make sense to me to understand, where the dead go. Isn´t it strange? It doesn´t make sense.Thinking of it I concluded it is even stranger to be alive. How come we are here? Are we here at all? What does this all mean? Isn´t life an illusion even bigger than death?

 

[Argamemnon]

deleted....

 

[SickJoke]

That's very illogical. Where science fails, and in my opinion will always fail to explain, is the beginning of life.

Those are two very different things. We do have an explanation for the beginning of life, it's called abiogenesis.

It's impossible for "something" to come into being out of "nothing". Nothing does not and can not become something.

And the big bang theory is in agreement with that. The singularity before the big bang may have existed forever, which means it wouldn't have had to come from anything.

I can't prove to you that the creator was God (although I'm a strong believer), and I will never be able to do so. But science will also never be able to explain the beginning of life.

It's already been explained. Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Argamemnon]

Those are two very different things. We do have an explanation for the beginning of life, it's called abiogenesis.

I don't have time now, but will definitely read up on this.

And the big bang theory is in agreement with that. The singularity before the big bang may have existed forever, which means it wouldn't have had to come from anything.

This I don't understand. The singularity before the big bang could not have existed forever. How did it came into existance, did it create itself out of nothing? Saying that it was always there sounds like religion. I believe God was always there. But from your point of view this would be illogical, and you would ask me; "where did God come from?" I don't have the answer, it's a belief that he was always there. Similarly, I can ask you; where did that singularity come from?

It's already been explained. Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the link!

 

[SickJoke]

How was this world created then? And was it created at all? It is and isn´t an illusion at the same time, perhaps some form of thought.

Do you mean earth? Here's an explanation of how planets are formed: Planet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For example it doesn´t make sense to me to understand, where the dead go. Isn´t it strange? It doesn´t make sense.

It makes perfect sense to me. The brain, which is responsible for consciousness, shuts off - just like when you pull the plug on your computer. Then the brain matter decomposes, so it can't be restored - just like if you were to melt your computer down to liquid form or something.

Thinking of it I concluded it is even stranger to be alive. How come we are here? Are we here at all? What does this all mean? Isn´t life an illusion even bigger than death?

I agree it's all very strange. But just because we are able to pose the question "What does this all mean?" doesn't mean there's an answer. But we have a very thorough explanation of how we got here: evolution.

 

[SickJoke]

This I don't understand. The singularity before the big bang could not have existed forever. How did it came into existance, did it create itself out of nothing? Saying that it was always there sounds like religion. I believe God was always there. But from your point of view this would be illogical and you would ask me; "where did God come from?" I don't have the answer. Similarly, I can ask you; where did that singularity come from?

The law of conservation says that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, so one hypothesis is that the universe is eternal. That hypothesis is self sufficient. Now when you add a god into the equation, all that does is make the situation more complex, requiring more explanation.

Thanks for the link!

My pleasure, enjoy

 

[Lea]

I think God is unity, world is polarity. The world/polarity came about by God dividing himself. Why did he do it, that´s a question. I used to read some theories about it long ago, but I don´t remember much. I think the theories were that he was too lonely and bored so he needed to divide himself/create world in order to have something like mirror, feedback. Without polarity world couldn´t exist, therefore there must be both good and bad. God had no other way to create this world without creating the bad side also.

 

[SickJoke]

I think God is unity, world is polarity. The world/polarity came about by God dividing himself. Why did he do it, that´s a question. I used to read some theories about it long ago, but I don´t remember much. I think the theories were that he was too lonely and bored so he needed to divide himself/create world in order to have something like mirror, feedback. Without polarity world couldn´t exist, therefore there must be both good and bad. God had no other way to create this world without creating the bad side also.

But there's no evidence to believe any of that. I could come up with something off the top of my head that has just as much merit as that:

"The universe is a droplet of urine from the great god, Foomanshu." How is the proposal you mentioned any more credible than mine? If there's no evidence to support something, there's no reason to believe it.

 

[Lea]

I think to these ultimate things like creation of the world is hard to find any evidence. I don´t know what I said is really the truth, but it´s a theory which seems to me most logical.