Is it just me?

[razzle dazzle rose]

Religion and my family culture has taught me to have high ideals...try to be a nice guy all the time...but I just can't live up to it. The reality is, I am below average in many areas.

it supports what I was saying about the times are a changin'......maybe the complex is just out-dated now

Well, you did mention having a problem viewing women in just two categories (and that is called the Madonna-whore complex but labels don't matter much to me either). A lot of "nice" guys have that sort of mentality. To me it sounded like you wanted to change that. I may have inferred incorrectly.

 

[Etbow23]

Perhaps it does have to do with location. I am from the United States. The puritan mentality is still going strong. Religion plays a major role too.

I guess it depends where you are in the united states though. Where I live I don't see this mentality much.

 

[antihistamine]

Well, you did mention having a problem viewing women in just two categories (and that is called the Madonna-whore complex but labels don't matter much to me either). A lot of "nice" guys have that sort of mentality. To me it sounded like you wanted to change that. I may have inferred incorrectly.

I don't think I am suited to marrying a catholic woman.
My partner is non-religious which is quite liberating. I am not about to cheat on her because everything else in our relationship is fantastic!!

 

[megalon]

I can relate to what the OP is saying and I don't think it has anything to do with this "madonna-whore" thing. It doesn't matter whether said girl is virgin or "whore". I think it stems from people like the OP and myself having such a poor self-image that we believe if we were ever to engage in any sexual activity with anyone, that person would be damaged somehow. Damaged probably isn't the right word, I don't know how to explain it, insulted?. Perhaps we have such poor self esteem that we believe even thinking about it is disrespecting the object of affection. It's more of a subconscious thing, I've never really thought of it before. I don't suffer from low sex drive though. I don't fantasize about any girls I know, but that's what porn is for. It all seems kind of silly now that I've thought it over and typed it out.

 

[antihistamine]

I also ask because I'm still trying to determine why, although I'm aware of the madonna/whore dichotomy in the world at large, I've not noticed it in my relationships.

It could be due to the fact that New Zealand is comparatively secular, and my boyfriends have all been comparatively secular.

(Or it could be simple obliviousness on my part, although surely even I am not that thick.)

I think it's to do with New Zealand weather and rugby.

 

[Aletheia]

I think it stems from people like the OP and myself having such a poor self-image that we believe if we were ever to engage in any sexual activity with anyone, that person would be damaged somehow.

I certainly shy away from people to avoid infecting them with my damagedness, but it's not sexual. (I do worry about whether I'm "good enough" in bed, but that's another issue.)

I don't fantasize about any girls I know, but that's what porn is for. It all seems kind of silly now that I've thought it over and typed it out.

It doesn't sound silly, but I do worry, and please don't take this as criticism, but I worry about why you don't fantasize about girls you know. I doubt you're the only one, but this does seem to feed into the division of real girls untouchable up on pedestals, and sex off in another zone entirely.

People fret about the accessibility of porn giving adolescents unrealistic notions of what real live sex actually is, although I'm not sure if reading the racy bits in Clan of the Cave Bear at age ten gave me a more accurate idea. But it does seem a shame that most boys (and girls) these days will have seen a lot of porn before they get to turn theory into practice, and I wonder if it doesn't underscore the notion that sex is "bad".

(Sorry, I'm not doing a very good job of articulating this.)

 

[Aletheia]

If you can't imagine having sex with them, then how are you going to have sex with them?

I guess is what I'm saying.

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

I'm not sure if reading the racy bits in Clan of the Cave Bear at age ten gave me a more accurate idea.

Ahh, gods! I read that at about the same age, and I remember it gave me odd thoughts. ::

 

[MikeyC]

Yeah, it is, but I still lose. Perhaps I have chosen the wrong men. They are truly more like boys than men. Perhaps I need an older man...hmmm...I had not thought about this before.

Older does not equal mature, by the way. I know a guy who's over 40 and he's a child. I don't know how rare of a case that is but immaturity can follow someone their entire life.

And yeah, you still end up the loser, which is quite sad, really. Hopefully the current one is a little more successful for you.

I can talk about sex...it is one of my favorite topics actually. It is interesting to hear what people have to say about it.

Salt N Pepa - Let'S Talk About Sex (The Original) - YouTube

Fitting, yeah? xD

 

[Aletheia]

^ OMG wow! but that takes me back.

*giggles hysterically at the particular memory*

(Man, I'm old.)

 

[antihistamine]

I was specifically referring to oral sex in my post above. There are no two types of women. Just as there are no two types of men either. The world is not black and white. See the shades of gray. You will be happier once you do.

It may be an idea to listen to your own advice then because your attitude appears very dismissive and patronising as if you do not contribute to any of your own problems.

 

[antihistamine]

razzle dazzle

sorry for sending you a private message re explaining the complexities of my current relationship. That was a big secret that I have never told anyone in the world. I made the mistake of thinking you may have had some empathy as you were going thru some difficulties yourself. Now I feel a little let down as if you brushed it off "your problem sir...don't bother me!!"
Sometimes I think we need a few more oldies on here with more life experiences!!

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

It may be an idea to listen to your own advice then because your attitude appears very dismissive and patronising as if you do not contribute to any of your own problems.

Oh, I did not mean to be patronizing or dismissive when I said that. I was only attempting to offer another view here. I do struggle to see the shades of gray myself, but I know they are there. I was only attempting to have a dialogue, and never did call anyone names. You must realize that you offended me here.

 

[MikeyC]

It doesn't sound silly, but I do worry, and please don't take this as criticism, but I worry about why you don't fantasize about girls you know.

I don't believe there's anything wrong with this. I know two girls at the moment that I fantasize about, even if I wouldn't make a move in real life.

 

[MikeyC]

lol, individually or together?

Well, individually, but now you've given me a new thought...!

 

[Kiwong]

If there where women who were into the same sexual fantasies as me I reckon it would be fantastic!! The more imagination involved the better as far as I am concerned. The suggestion that men don't have an imagination involving sex fantasies is a furphy.

Of course there may be sex acts that either party in the relationship would not be comfortable in engaging in. And that could be more to do with personal preference than to do with the aforementioned virgin whore/gigilo complex. If someone says no to a particular sex act, then that needs to be respected, it may be frustrating for the partner wanting to participate.

 

[antihistamine]

Oh, I did not mean to be patronizing or dismissive when I said that. I was only attempting to offer another view here. I do struggle to see the shades of gray myself, but I know they are there. I was only attempting to have a dialogue, and never did call anyone names. You must realize that you offended me here.

No I didn't actually....but you've offended me so we can call it quits!

 

[Aletheia]

I don't believe there's anything wrong with this. I know two girls at the moment that I fantasize about, even if I wouldn't make a move in real life.

Oo. I hope my convoluted grammar didn't lead you to read into that the opposite of what I meant.

Which was that it would be healthy for him to be fantasizing about women he knows. It's natural.

 

[MikeyC]

Oo. I hope my convoluted grammar didn't lead you to read into that the opposite of what I meant.

Which was that it would be healthy for him to be fantasizing about women he knows. It's natural.

Yeah, so...I'm healthy, right? xD

 

[emre43]

You have to dig deep and find out why you feel this way. You will have to challenge your beliefs. You will have to blend the virgin and whore images you have in your head, and see this girl as a sexual being as you yourself are. It will not be easy, but it is possible. Maybe a therapist can help you with this.

Ah, I misunderstood what this complex was. I don't categorise girls into either virgin or whore, nor do I wish any kind of harm or punishment to them. I think what my problem is that I used to have a really beautiful girlfriend but she was also a beautiful person as well. She was kind, sweet and intelligent (I broke up with her because I felt that she deserved far more than I could offer). Anyway, I was walking along with her one day when I heard a couple of boys talking to each other and I heard one of them say "Did you see the tits on that". It upset and angered me because she was far more than that but it was as if how she was as a person didn't matter; all she was was a pair of tits to these boys. I didn't want to lower myself to their level and I refused to think of her in any way sexually after that.