Do you think monogamy is natural?

[coyote]

^good advice, Pookah

to say monogamy is "normal" does not necessarily say that it is the only behavior that IS normal

polygamy, promiscuity, etc. are ALSO "normal" behaviors

last time i checked, this big beautiful universe of ours sports an infinite variation of colors

not just black and white

 

[kilojoule]

^good advice, Pookah

to say monogamy is "normal" does not necessarily say that it is the only behavior that IS normal

polygamy, promiscuity, etc. are ALSO "normal" behaviors

last time i checked, this big beautiful universe of ours sports an infinite variation of colors

not just black and white

I believe we were saying it was 'natural' nothing and nobody's normal haha the whole world is crazy

 

[vexatiousmind]

I think it depends on the person.
Some people really have to put a lot of work into being monogamous.
To others it may seem effortless.

If you are someone who has to work at it, try to only get in relationships with people you think are worth the work.

 

[coyote]

oops

to say monogamy is "natural" does not necessarily say that it is the only behavior that IS natural

polygamy, promiscuity, etc. are ALSO "natural" behaviors

last time i checked, this big beautiful universe of ours sports an infinite variation of colors

not just black and white

there

 

[AGR]

But if the hormone makes you want to bond with the other person, wouldn't that encourage monogamy? I mean, you'd have to deliberately fight against something that your body chemistry wanted you to do (which is usually achieved by making the thing in question pleasurable in some way) in order to break that bond. You'd be going against a strong desire to remain monogamous, which most people would be unlikely to do.

Also cant you bond with two persons at the same time?

A lot of people have more than one child,I have seen people torn between two others,I dont know why they keep calling the monogamy hormone,it obviously doesnt stop cheating, otherwise there wouldnt be cheating.........

 

[kilojoule]

Also cant you bond with two persons at the same time?

A lot of people have more than one child,I have seen people torn between two others,I dont know why they keep calling the monogamy hormone,it obviously doesnt stop cheating, otherwise there wouldnt be cheating.........

Well my point was that people cheat in spite of the oxytocin bond. Because it is in our nature to be both monogomous and to be perverse. I think we are complex and contradictory beings.

 

[AGR]

Well my point was that people cheat in spite of the oxytocin bond. Because it is in our nature to be both monogomous and to be perverse. I think we are complex and contradictory beings.

I am sorry I cant see how we were meant to be monogamous,nothing that talked about oxytocin said that it can only be formed with one person even if it were, doesnt mean it would make you monogamous,people have sex without strong bonds too,in fact if we take the example that it is released with sexual arousal,if you have sex with two persons(which does happen)it seems to me it would be released with the two.

 

[kilojoule]

I am sorry I cant see how we were meant to be monogamous,nothing that talked about oxytocin said that it can only be formed with one person even if it were, doesnt mean it would make you monogamous,people have sex without strong bonds too,in fact if we take the example that it is released with sexual arousal,if you have sex with two persons(which does happen)it seems to me it would be released with the two.

I posted the link I think on the previous page it kinda explains that whole side of things

 

[Rembrandt Broam]

Well my point was that people cheat in spite of the oxytocin bond. Because it is in our nature to be both monogomous and to be perverse. I think we are complex and contradictory beings.

I don't necessarily agree that it is in our nature to be peverse. Humans are animals, and just like any other animal everything we do has some biological reason as the root cause.

I think the nature of most animals is not to be monogamous. For many members of the animal kingdom, the male's role is simply to impregnate the female, and from a biological point of view the more females he can impregnate, the more offspring he will have, and the greater the chance that some of those offspring will survive to pass on his genes to another generation.

Humans males take more of an active role in the raising of their offspring (hopefully, anyway) and humans themselves have quite a long period of immaturity before reaching adulthood, which creates a biological advantage in the male sticking around. This probably explains why this bonding you're talking about takes place, and will most likely be an evolutionary mechanism which has evolved for this purpose.

So we are pulled two ways, but I think it's more a case of our primitive animal instincts vs our higher evolutionary instincts that cause the problem.

 

[AGR]

I posted the link I think on the previous page it kinda explains that whole side of things

I read that, it says that the vole prefers one over the others,but it doesnt say if it would be impossible for the vole to like two voles over the others for example,if it could like only one than cheating would be almost impossible.

Also in humans we dont even need to like the much person to have sex with them.

As I said Oxytocin is also released in sexual arousal,some people do have sex with 2 persons,therefore I would assume that is not released with just one person.

 

[kilojoule]

hmm I feel misunderstood

I think that nature encourages bonding and therefor monogamy through oxytocin which creates a bond between two partners. They prefer each other as their partner than someone else.


and yet



It doesn't always work because sometimes for whatever reason we fight that aspect of our nature and are led by a different part of our nature.


Ultimately I think it boils down to choice, mind, conscious decision.

 

[Rembrandt Broam]

Ultimately I think it boils down to choice, mind, conscious decision.

I think that's exactly what it boils down to. Regardless of hormones and our biology, we are unique amongst all animals in that we can make conscious and informed choices regarding our behaviour.

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

but it doesnt say if it would be impossible for the vole to like two voles over the others for example,if it could like only one than cheating would be almost impossible.

This is why I make it a point never to have sex with voles.

 

[kilojoule]

This is why I make it a point never to have sex with voles.

It's funny I think this whole conversation started with chimps are such whores and now that its been argued out it's done a 360 and come back to voles are such whores.....

 

[hippiechild]

Lol.. I've heard about Wilbur's supposed half-hour, white knuckle, ride of your life orgasms.. no idea if it's exclusive to males or what.

As far as I have heard, humans are generally socially monogamous and sexually polygamous, with a tendency toward serial monogamy. We tend to have a series of close, long-lasting relationships, which apparently average around 2-4 years each. This has been used as an explanation of the infamous "seven year itch"... which was apparently entirely too optimistic ::
(anthropologists suppose that 2-4 year period is the minimum length of time to get a youngster up on his feet and able to survive without constant intensive care)

Oxytocin plays an important role in pair bonding, just as Monster said, but is not alone in its role as biochemical matchmaker. The analogous secretion in the male brain is Vasopressin, which has similar effects in relation to pair bonding. In pair bonding species, the easily conditioned, dopaminergic areas of the brain (nucleus accumbens) will have vasopressin receptors. Vasopressin (and oxytocin) released after sex with the same individual time after time seems to essentially lead to addiction... in pretty much the same way that cocaine does.

The action of vasopressin was shown in field voles, which, despite the presence of vasopressin, were polygamous. Through altering the gene coding for vasopressin receptors in the NA, they were able to create pair bonding voles with intact families, loving relationships and mommies and daddies who adoree their little vole-lings.

This gene configuration and upstanding behavior are naturally expressed in the prairie vole.

Blah blahnonsense..

Bottom line is that, as Nathan said, humans tend to fall toward the middle ground on most issues. We’re not quite monogamous, nor polygamous… there’s a hell of a lot of flexibility to our behavior that isn’t quite there in other species. Most of our genes are not directly coding for proteins, but, rather, may regulate transcription factors..which operate to change whole slews of genes’ expression…

Our genetic inheritance has basically been toward flexibility, freedom from our genes. We have brains that… language, which.. social inheritance.. we can.. symbolism... contemplate existence.. we basically have no boundaries to what we’re capable of doing.
So yeah, I’d say that polygamy is as natural as anything else we do and if monogamy is what we want, we’re more than able to achieve it.

edit* bloody 'ell... someone seems to have already talked about my voles, beloved!

 

[AGR]

hmm I feel misunderstood

I think that nature encourages bonding and therefor monogamy through oxytocin which creates a bond between two partners. They prefer each other as their partner than someone else.


and yet



It doesn't always work because sometimes for whatever reason we fight that aspect of our nature and are led by a different part of our nature.


.

I dont think they "fight it" never saw someone cheating who didnt want it
Bonding doesnt mean monogamy,I think the error is labeling the "monogamy hormone".

Propensity for one-night stands, uncommitted sex could be genetic, study suggests


"According to Garcia, these results provide some of the first biological evidence that at first glance, seems to be somewhat of a contradiction: that individuals could be looking for a serious committed long-term relationship, but have a history of one-night stands. At the same time, the data also suggests it is also reasonable that someone could be wildly in love with their partner, commit infidelity, and yet still be deeply attached and care for their partner. It all came back to a DRD4 variation in these individuals. Individual differences in the internal drive for a dopamine 'rush' can function independently from the drive for commitment."



Preferring someone over the others,or bonding better with someone does not mean monogamy,I dont see any contradiction in those actions,but yes ultimately is down to the person.

 

[kilojoule]

"According to Garcia, these results provide some of the first biological evidence that at first glance, seems to be somewhat of a contradiction: that individuals could be looking for a serious committed long-term relationship, but have a history of one-night stands. At the same time, the data also suggests it is also reasonable that someone could be wildly in love with their partner, commit infidelity, and yet still be deeply attached and care for their partner. It all came back to a DRD4 variation in these individuals. Individual differences in the internal drive for a dopamine 'rush' can function independently from the drive for commitment."



Preferring someone over the others,or bonding better with someone does not mean monogamy,I dont see any contradiction in those actions,but yes ultimately is down to the person.

Not sure why you're quoting me? Aren't you singing the same song to a different tune here ?


I think when you prefer someone and are bonded with them, you will choose them. That makes sense to me. Those reasons encourage monogamy

I also believe (as you've also said above) that people will also be driven to commit infidelity in spite of this for whatever reasons- that is also in our nature


I believe that these two things are contradictory. On one hand we want to be with one person, on the other hand we want to be with someone else


Ultimately I believe it to be a conscious decision that each individual needs to make for him/herself.

 

[Bittersweet]

I've been wondering that a lot lately.
I wonder if monogamy, and the expectations that go along with it, were created for either religious or economic reasons.

Also, if open relationships were the norm, would jealousy be an issue? Or, is jealousy a conditioned response to the expectation and pressure of monogamy?

 

[HeadFace]

I think most people are raised up thinking it's the right thing to do, so we perceive it as natural later on.
I don't think it's natural. But I prefer it over having multiple partners.
Does that make sense?