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OR... (alternate story line) ..

We landed the helicopter in a field of beautiful flowers.. we all hopped out the helicopter and joined our hands and sang kumbaya whilst we sat amongst the flowers. Then a pink fluffy unicorn came along and we all patted it for a while.

Then Jesus appeared and walked through the flowers toward us. He smiled at each of us.
We were all feeling so good, feeling the love..

Jesus then said 'here, eat this bread. It is my body'. So we ate the bread.
Jesus said 'here, drink this wine, it is my blood'. So we drank the wine.
Then Jesus said 'here, swallow this mayonnaise, it is my -

Pug get's up and says 'fk this, I'm out'.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PugofCrydee View Post
OR... (alternate story line) ..

We landed the helicopter in a field of beautiful flowers.. we all hopped out the helicopter and joined our hands and sang kumbaya whilst we sat amongst the flowers. Then a pink fluffy unicorn came along and we all patted it for a while.

Then Jesus appeared and walked through the flowers toward us. He smiled at each of us.
We were all feeling so good, feeling the love..

Jesus then said 'here, eat this bread. It is my body'. So we ate the bread.
Jesus said 'here, drink this wine, it is my blood'. So we drank the wine.
Then Jesus said 'here, swallow this mayonnaise, it is my -

Pug get's up and says 'fk this, I'm out'.

Omg, Pug! LOL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PugofCrydee View Post
Jesus then said 'here, eat this bread. It is my body'. So we ate the bread.
Jesus said 'here, drink this wine, it is my blood'. So we drank the wine.
Then Jesus said 'here, swallow this mayonnaise, it is my -

Pug get's up and says 'fk this, I'm out'.
This doesn't feel like respecting religious differences to me. It feels more like making fun of a belief that's different from your own. As you may be aware, I'm agnostic (or possibly atheistic depending on your definition), but I don't just take random shots at religion. People who already agree with you will still agree and people who don't agree will feel insulted. Overall that's a negative change.

If you can't tell when you're being disrespectful it's probably best to just to avoid the subject.

I don't want the religious people to feel unwelcome here. We have more in common than not after all, so it's not productive to emphasize the differences.

Now keep in mind I'm trying to put myself in shoes that I'm not standing in. I'm guessing at how this feels for someone who is religious. Input from such a someone would be welcome.
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Nathaniel.. honest and open question here. I'm not trying to offend anyone. What if people openly quoting and preaching their religion offends those who arent religious here? What about THEIR feelings and thoughts?

I have been told to ignore religious stuff here and just scroll by.
Why cant that go for both groups? Or is one allowed to offend the other?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanielWingatePeaslee View Post
This doesn't feel like respecting religious differences to me. It feels more like making fun of a belief that's different from your own. As you may be aware, I'm agnostic (or possibly atheistic depending on your definition), but I don't just take random shots at religion. People who already agree with you will still agree and people who don't agree will feel insulted. Overall that's a negative change.

If you can't tell when you're being disrespectful it's probably best to just to avoid the subject.

I don't want the religious people to feel unwelcome here. We have more in common than not after all, so it's not productive to emphasize the differences.

Now keep in mind I'm trying to put myself in shoes that I'm not standing in. I'm guessing at how this feels for someone who is religious. Input from such a someone would be welcome.
I agree completely, I feel like members have already left the site over things like this.

Pug, if you don't know when you're being offensive (which I don't believe for a second) then maybe you should just avoid the subject.

That said, I like you. You're cool most of the time but for whatever reason you seem to relish ridiculing Christians and their faith.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PugofCrydee View Post
Nathaniel.. honest and open question here. I'm not trying to offend anyone. What if people openly quoting and preaching their religion offends those who arent religious here? What about THEIR feelings and thoughts?

I have been told to ignore religious stuff here and just scroll by.
Why cant that go for both groups? Or is one allowed to offend the other?
Allowing someone to practice their religion in peace and just be their religion is pretty much the definition of "respecting religious differences". You don't actually have to feel respect for their religion--that's a different thing.

Actively speaking against their beliefs is another category entirely. Being offended doesn't make it okay to disparage someone's core beliefs--at least not by the rules on this forum.

If you're thinking of AtTheGates and that whole mess regarding scrolling by, he was the one doing wrong there in several ways. That was most unfortunate and disappointing.

Someone like lily though, that's different. She's just being who she is without some agenda or intent to do harm. She's being honest about her beliefs. She can talk about Jesus all day long and I won't give her an infraction because it's not against the rules.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FountainandFairfax View Post
I agree completely, I feel like members have already left the site over things like this.

Pug, if you don't know when you're being offensive (which I don't believe for a second) then maybe you should just avoid the subject.

That said, I like you. You're cool most of the time but for whatever reason you seem to relish ridiculing Christians and their faith.
Wow... just.. wow.
You are actually so far off the mark its not funny.
I find religion offensive as a whole. Not just christians who seem to take everything personally. Yet they dont mind treading on everyone elses toes in the name of their god.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanielWingatePeaslee View Post
Allowing someone to practice their religion in peace and just be their religion is pretty much the definition of "respecting religious differences". You don't actually have to feel respect for their religion--that's a different thing.

Actively speaking against their beliefs is another category entirely. Being offended doesn't make it okay to disparage someone's core beliefs--at least not by the rules on this forum.

If you're thinking of AtTheGates and that whole mess regarding scrolling by, he was the one doing wrong there in several ways. That was most unfortunate and disappointing.

Someone like lily though, that's different. She's just being who she is without some agenda or intent to do harm. She's being honest about her beliefs. She can talk about Jesus all day long and I won't give her an infraction because it's not against the rules.

Ok. I'll respect your rules.
As an atheist (which is my steadfast belief) am I allowed to talk openly about my beliefs?
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Im happy to not talk about religion, politics or death.
As long as others do the same. So if you set those rules I'm happy to abide by them.
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I'm starting a thread to confine religious debate to an area so it doesn't affect the site as a whole negatively.

Ok with that? Do I have your permission/blessing?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FountainandFairfax View Post
I agree completely, I feel like members have already left the site over things like this
Well you might "feel" others have left the site, but I KNOW others have because of the preaching that goes on.
But I guess thats ok because they're not religious?
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It just seems that if you're religious you have a right to be offended. But if you're not, to hell with you.
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This is a thread to talk about belief systems.
No matter what the religion or belief, all viewpoints are welcome here.

**robust debate is welcome**
Please do not get offended by anyone elses point of view. This is a thread to debate in a light hearted manner as well as more seriously.
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Pug, what did i tell you about nuclear explosions? lol
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The rule of thumb that makes sense to me is the "overheard on the bus" rule. Imagine you are on the bus, and you overhear to people talking. Now, if you heard someone talking about how fundamentally awful black people are, for example, that would be offensive to everyone around. Regardless of a persons personal belief on the matter, the bulk of society agrees that is incredibly offensive (and generally hateful).

If you were to apply that to religion, if you heard two church ladies talking about how much they love God on the bus, most people are going to be okay with this whether they too are religious, religion is not a part of their lives, or they simply have different beliefs. Some people may not like it, but there are a lot of things people don't like hearing, that alone doesn't make it offensive or disrespectful.

Now, if you had someone making jokes Jesus cumming in a bunch of peoples mouths, especially if that person is fully knowledgeable that religious people can hear him, people on the bus are going see that guy in a similar light they see the guy talking about how fundamentally awful black people are. Or if a religious person stands up on the bus, and tells everyone to go to church or they are going to hell and deserve to die. It's at those points it becomes disrespectful and hateful.

I guess I personally view this forum like a bus, it's for anyone to use as long as they are respectful. There have been posts on here I have read that made me sick, that I just personally found to be unsavory. And once and a while some of those people still post on here. Perhaps some people feel the same way about my posts at times, I am not sure. My point just being is there are always going to people we don't like, beliefs we don't agree with, and ways of thinking that don't sit well with us. If someone isn't able to interact with respect toward them, they'll probably get kicked off the bus.

And I am not saying this to attack you Pug, this forum is so barren already and I would hate to see you get banned. This was the most vivid way I could think to explain how a third party sees posts like that.
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Pug i think ppl commenting here appreciate/like you and they're just trying to give you an advice in order to avoid starting a fire rather than reproaching anything.

As i see it your "white jello post" (some ppl will like it, others wont whether religious or not) is a lighter:

Usually doing this:
wouldnt be a problem, it's ok

But if you do that same action in a place surrounded by wood (religious ppl or ents :P) you could start a fire that easily turns into this:



AAAND the same goes for religous ppl trying to impose their religion over other ppl's believes (or disbelieves xD).
VJ gave a very good example, just imagine a religious person talking about how God created the world in a scientific conference, everyone would be like:

(i don't know if this is the same bus VJ was refering to haha)

And there are religious science ppl but even they would avoid talking about God in that conference because...well, there are places/situations where is better to avoid certain topics.

Yes i suck at giving advices so i'll go back to my lair


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Quote:
Originally Posted by PugofCrydee View Post
Ok. I'll respect your rules.
As an atheist (which is my steadfast belief) am I allowed to talk openly about my beliefs?
That kind of depends, doesn't it? If your beliefs are anything like "you guys who believe in your religions are obviously idiots" or "religion sucks balls, especially yours" then not so much. Those would be pretty clear violations of rule 4. The only actually atheistic belief is "there is no god or gods". Anything else is a belief of an atheist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PugofCrydee View Post
I'm starting a thread to confine religious debate to an area so it doesn't affect the site as a whole negatively.

Ok with that? Do I have your permission/blessing?
Um, retroactively yes. Thanks for asking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PugofCrydee View Post
It just seems that if you're religious you have a right to be offended. But if you're not, to hell with you.
Being offended is highly subjective. The rules are not. If there's a rule saying "respect the color preferences of others" and you ridicule someone for wearing blue, that's a violation of the rule. If someone...wears blue, that's not a violation. One person might be offended by the color blue while the next is not.

Here's a link to the site rules for quick reference:

RULES LINKY
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Hmm...

I'm not an atheist, though I'm sometimes mistaken for one. I actually studied religion in college and even went to divinity school for a while. I was raised in a Christian faith, though by very skeptical parents.

This brief background is just meant to give this question context:

Is it offensive to say "religion sucks balls, especially yours," but not offensive to defend being a member of a faith that claims exclusive truth and that condemns unbelievers, non-cishet folks, and others as less than human?
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I have an opinion on that matter so I'm going to try and share it. I laughed at your joke (though I would personnally have stayed with Jesus because I just can't resist unicorns) and I think I know where you're coming from when you say you are offended that you cannot express freely your disagreement towards religion. I'm a litte bit annoyed, as you seem to be as well, when religious people say things like "Jesus loves you" or "God will help you through this" because, as a die hard atheist, to me it sounds as if they were saying "the night fairies will help you through this" (in fact I would be more inclined to believe in the power of fairies). What is an atheist supposed to respond to that? "Thanks, but... you're delusional" ? We could argue that they should assume other people don't have the same beliefs as they do and therefor they should stop annoying us with their beliefs. However Christianism is a very widespread religion so it is sort of natural that christian people will not assume such a thing (I'm talking about christianism because I think this is mostly the religion that we are talking about here). In the same line of thoughts, it is probably also accurate to assume that there is a fair amount of christian people here and that such a joke will surely offend them.

Now as Nathaniel said, when you say you are offended by people expressing their christian beliefs, it's a little delicate to do anything about it. When they talk about God, they are not trying to offend you, they are just speaking with the words that express the world that they live in, in which they often have been raised. They are not talking "against" unbelievers (I mean not on this forum anyway). When you make a joke about Jesus, it's funny for us atheist, but we all know there is christians here and it's going to make their ears bleed a little, and you choose to say it anyway in all awareness.

That being said, should they disregard your joke as we disregard their speeches about God and Jesus? I don't know the answer to that question, but I think that for the sake of decency, without necessarily censoring ourselves, this is important that we pay attention when someone mention that our words might have been offensive for someone else and take some time to think about it. This is also relevant, I think, that the offended people take some time to reflect on the reasons why they are offended.

Which would lead me to 3 questions (beside the main one): Why are you so offended with christian beliefs (I'm not asking you to tell us, I'm talking about personal introspection), are christians offended by your posts here when you talk against, or make jokes about christianism (for all I know I haven't seen any christian participate to this conversation?), and finally should christian people, knowing that it's a little annoying to atheist, be careful not to throw their God loving at us, especially when they know they are talking to someone who is offended by it?

And one last question, did you start this thread to have this current debate or you were talking about an actual debate about religion (did Jesus exist or not etc.)?

Interesting discussion anyway.

Sorry for the long post.
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