Religious debate

[lily]

I know this was originally Pacific_Loner's thread but then it was attached to Pug lol

 

[PugofCrydee]

I post this because these people put into words what I cannot


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUzExsAJLmI

 

[PugofCrydee]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. i have my own reasons that i believe in the lord jesus/God, it's even personal so just like i don't poke fun at atheists, athiests shouldn't do that either, it's disrespectful and it was even a rude post like Nathaniel has commented on. I can choose to ignore and let you see for yourselves and you can ignore that i don't believe in no God and let me be on my own.

Lily, do you believe gay people should burn in 'hell'?

 

[lily]

Lily, do you believe gay people should burn in 'hell'?

I'm going to tell you sth. I once saw a man lift up a toddler's shirt and rubbing it at the upper back while holding him. i think that little boy would probably grow up being gay, i don't know. but i thought it's not natural for us to be gay or lesbian so this is probably where it's rooted in, that people have a past for being who they are. just like people are interested in children it doesn't make it right.

 

[FountainandFairfax]

 

[PugofCrydee]

I'm going to tell you sth. I once saw a man lift up a toddler's shirt and rubbing it at the upper back while holding him. i think that little boy would probably grow up being gay, i don't know. but i thought it's not natural for us to be gay or lesbian so this is probably where it's rooted in, that people have a past for being who they are. just like people are interested in children it doesn't make it right.

Umm...lol.
I'm not quite understanding your answer. But did you just say gay people are basically peadophiles?

Oh, and do you believe gay people should burn in your gods hell?

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

 

[F0AM]

I'm going to tell you sth. I once saw a man lift up a toddler's shirt and rubbing it at the upper back while holding him. i think that little boy would probably grow up being gay, i don't know. but i thought it's not natural for us to be gay or lesbian so this is probably where it's rooted in, that people have a past for being who they are. just like people are interested in children it doesn't make it right.

Lily i think you're a nice person but you're terribly misinformed.

I still don't understand why some people keep thinking homosexuality and pedophilia are related, just so you know:

Sexual orientations:

Heterosexuality: Sexual attraction to people from the opposite sex/gender.
Homosexuality: Sexual attraction to people from same sex/gender.
Bisexuality: Sexual attraction to both genders. Doesen't have to be 50/50, you can be more attracted to one gender and still be bisexual.
Asexuality: Lack of sexual attraction. Yes, asexual people can still fall in love, and show physical affection. They are not robots.

Those are the basics (for more info, use google)

And then there are "Philias", these are more specific preferences (not all sexual tho) unrelated to your sexuality. Some are illegal and/or moraly questionable. There are hundreds (again, google them if you're interested) so i'll only talk about Pedophilia since it's the one you mentioned:

Pedophilia: Sexual attraction to children (not teenagers, that's called Ephebophilia). This is not determined by your gender or sexuality. Yes, heterosexual people and women can also be pedophiles. Plenty of pedophiles are men attracted to little girls (straight).

That said:

Are there Homosexuals who are also pedophiles? Yes
Are all pedophiles also homosexuals? No
Are all homosexuals also pedophiles? No

I once saw a man lift up a toddler's shirt and rubbing it at the upper back while holding him

Well if it was a rendom man doing that then that's indeed creepy. BUT it was probably a relative helping him expelling gases :/ or maybe he was just showing affection.

Please don't let others force you into thinking that men cannot show physical afection without being gay, cause that's stupid. You can hug or even kiss a friend or a relative and you won't be less straight for doing that. I remember Dannyboy65 (such a nice guy, i wonder where he is) being concerned once because his friend rested his head on his shoulder and that could be weird...oh God, don't worry, physical contact is normal between living beings (some like it more, some less)

So please, stop watching everything with dirty eyes.

i think that little boy would probably grow up being gay

Because that man touched him? Plenty of women (friends and family) have touched/kissed/hugged me throughout my life and i haven't become heterosexual. I've seen my whole life heterosexual couples holding hands, kissing eachother even having sex. My whole childhood has been sourrounded by books, movies, tv shows and games depicting heterosexual couples. All the members that i know of my family are Heterosexuals. And after all that...no, i haven't turned into a heterosexual person :/

So don't worry, no matter how many gay people you see or touch , you wont' turn gay.

Homosexuality is not contagious and cannot be transmitted for the simple fact that it is not disease. I don't know about your country, but here in Spain if i go to an emergency room and tell the doctors that i am/feel gay...well he/she would probably send me back home and tell me to stop bothering and let them treat people with real illnesses and not stupidity.

Don't say what others tell you to say or say what you hear from others. Think for yourself, i could understand this behaviour ages ago, but nowdays there's plenty of wonderful sources of information, one being the Internet. So do some research and inform yourself, You'll see how there's a lot of facts that are actually quite different from what you may think at first.

P.S I'm gay and I'm against pedophilia. A child's body is not developed enough for sexual intercourse and they'd probably not understand what is going on and thus cannot give their consent. That's rape. A healthy sexual relationship is that between two (or more, that's up to each person) mature enough people, with mutual consent and understanding of the situation.

BESIDES, why would i be interested in a damned beardless kid when there's people like Ragnar's actor or Charlie Hunnam (believe it or not i'm more into black hair lol)

Have a nice day!

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

Good post, FOAM.

I can choose to ignore and let you see for yourselves and you can ignore that i don't believe in no God and let me be on my own.

Lily, do you believe gay people should burn in 'hell'?

I'm pretty sure lily was asking you to leave her be and you responded to that by trying to get her to violate rule #2 about homophobia because you already have a good idea what her answer would be. I mean, tell me I'm wrong here.

Hence my picture of a Wile E. Coyote trap. Just to be clear.

About that moral high ground thing...

 

[lily]

No it seemed like molesting to me. you don't have to lift up a toddler's shirt upward to rub them and i just disagree. i connect the two examples.

 

[PugofCrydee]

Good post, FOAM.






I'm pretty sure lily was asking you to leave her be and you responded to that by trying to get her to violate rule #2 about homophobia because you already have a good idea what her answer would be. I mean, tell me I'm wrong here.

Hence my picture of a Wile E. Coyote trap. Just to be clear.

About that moral high ground thing...

You asked me to tell you you're wrong Nathaniel. Well I'm telling you, you're wrong.
I respect you as the admin here, and you're mostly balanced in opinion.
But.. you've got this one dead wrong. So let ME be clear..

Firstly, I did NOT bait Lily in trying to break the rules. I'm not like that. Quite frankly, I'm offended that you would think that of me. That's an assumption you have made of me as a person and, very judgmental (and incorrect) of you.

Secondly, this is a thread about the debate of religion. Lily has entered this thread knowing she was likely to disagree with things - although her discussion is still welcomed. She chose to make VERY offensive remarks.
They may well be her beliefs but they where (in this day and age) still offensive. All I did was question her offensive remarks. I have 2 relatives and also 2 friends that are gay. I love them. So I took offence at her remarks.

Upon entering a thread based on the discussion and debate of religion, you can't expect there to be no discussion on what some people believe in.

What?
Why?
Whom?
When? -are just some of the things that will be asked. If you make a statement, then you may be asked 'why'? (or at the very least, to clarify your statement).

I guess that's the difference between the non religious and the religious.
One group encourages question, logic, reason, and open discussion.
The other tries to shut down anything they do not like to hear. (and yes I am well aware of the forum rules). Remember, this thread was made for open discussion of that topic. If you don't like what's being discussed then don't read the thread.
I state again - from my position - ALL opinions are welcome in this thread.

Nathaniel, like I've said, I respect your position as admin of this site and for the most part your opinions - I agree with them. But on me laying a trap for Lily - you're wrong, and I take offence to that.

Do you have the balls to apologize for that? Or will you just boot me and delete this and tell everyone I broke the rules.

Boot me if you wish. This site.. I like it. But I don't live for it.

 

[PugofCrydee]

No it seemed like molesting to me. you don't have to lift up a toddler's shirt upward to rub them and i just disagree. i connect the two examples.

I used to rub my son's (as an infant) belly and back to make him laugh and smile, sometimes to get him to drift off to sleep. Sometimes just because I was feeling affectionate towards him.
I'm not gay.
I'm not a pedophile.

My son is now 19 and has just joined the navy. He is VERY interested in women.. but in saying that, if he was gay or bi-sexual, do you think that I should love him less because of what a book says?

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

I asked you to show me how I'm wrong and you did your best. I can't think of any rules violated here or how the post is off topic so I see no need to take mod action.

I can't help but notice that you utterly ignored the bit about her asking you to leave her alone and you responding with...the opposite. Oh well.

You were the one who brought up homosexuality. You were the one who asked her what she thought. She didn't say offensive (and in my opinion pretty darned ignorant) stuff out of the blue--you got her to say it. I find it disingenuous that you had no idea what she'd say. I do agree that you're familiar with the rules and therefor had to have had some idea that what she might say would be against them. You're too intelligent to have seen none of that coming. So yeah, no. My conclusion remains unchanged.

I think your fervent hatred of religion unhinges you. I think you become too emotional about it to remain unbiased. I think you don't even see when you're being mean-spirited or when you're dodging facts or misreading information. I've seen you do all these things before and always on this one particular subject and it alone. Well, no human is rational about everything.

I'm not going to go to the effort of providing examples (though I was sorely tempted) or trying to persuade you. That would be wasted effort.

I get that you don't see it that way but no apology will be forthcoming.

Carry on.

 

[PugofCrydee]

I asked you to show me how I'm wrong and you did your best. I can't think of any rules violated here or how the post is off topic so I see no need to take mod action.

I can't help but notice that you utterly ignored the bit about her asking you to leave her alone and you responding with...the opposite. Oh well.

You were the one who brought up homosexuality. You were the one who asked her what she thought. She didn't say offensive (and in my opinion pretty darned ignorant) stuff out of the blue--you got her to say it. I find it disingenuous that you had no idea what she'd say. I do agree that you're familiar with the rules and therefor had to have had some idea that what she might say would be against them. You're too intelligent to have seen none of that coming. So yeah, no. My conclusion remains unchanged.

I think your fervent hatred of religion unhinges you. I think you become too emotional about it to remain unbiased. I think you don't even see when you're being mean-spirited or when you're dodging facts or misreading information. I've seen you do all these things before and always on this one particular subject and it alone. Well, no human is rational about everything.

I'm not going to go to the effort of providing examples (though I was sorely tempted) or trying to persuade you. That would be wasted effort.

I get that you don't see it that way but no apology will be forthcoming.

Carry on.

Thanks for your reply. If you're talking about people being rationale then you'd best not look to religious people for that.

I'm not interested in getting personal here, even though your reply seems laden with 'barbs' and 'digs' at me.
I thought you might be a bit better than that when it comes to someone disagreeing with you, or being upset with you.
I'm not changing my position that you made an assumption/call on my intentions that was completely wrong.. but.. 'oh well'.

Oh, and just for the record/thread.. I don't have a 'fervent hatred of religion'.
I have a fervent hatred of the way a lot of it's practiced, abused, and how it's used to take advantage of those people with good intentions. It's become a business model, a tax haven.
I have nothing against the spiritual needs/wants of people.

All opinions/replies welcome. But lets not get personal.. right?

 

[NathanielWingatePeaslee]

All opinions/replies welcome. But lets not get personal.. right?

We can all only do our best.

In that spirit, if anyone's religious beliefs are in conflict with the rules please feel free to speak them in this thread without fear of infractions or banning.

 

[PugofCrydee]

I find it disingenuous that you had no idea what she'd say. I do agree that you're familiar with the rules and therefor had to have had some idea that what she might say would be against them.

Oh because Lily has made it known to be Christian, going by the belief system that Christians employ, I wondered if she indeed believed that all gays should 'burn in hell'.
You see, not all christians believe this. Some are openly gay AND christian. Not all are hard core/extremist. In Australia there are a number of openly gay and christian people.

So I was actually asking her to clarify her position. Not - as you put it - setting a trap of sorts.

 

[PugofCrydee]

We can all only do our best.

In that spirit, if anyone's religious beliefs are in conflict with the rules please feel free to speak them in this thread without fear of infractions or banning.

My only intention all along was to encourage open debate and conversation about religion (or non religious beliefs for that matter) and confine it to a thread. Rather than having it 'infect' (for want of a better word..lol) other threads.

:thumbup:

Remember, those wanting to discuss any other belief systems are welcome to do so.

 

[F0AM]

No it seemed like molesting to me. you don't have to lift up a toddler's shirt upward to rub them and i just disagree. i connect the two examples.

Yes, you dont have to, you could also touch it with a stick. But sometimes direct contact with the skin seems to have better results ex:

- If you ever get a massage, the masseur will probably ask you to take your cloths off, tho he could massage you while wearing a shirt.

- If some part of your body itches, probably you would rather take the cloths off that part and scratch it than doing that while covered

- If you have ever felt bloated because you ate too much or whatever, i'm sure you've lifted your shirt up in order to rub your belly even tho you could have done it with the shirt on

I used to rub my son's (as an infant) belly and back to make him laugh and smile, sometimes to get him to drift off to sleep. Sometimes just because I was feeling affectionate towards him.

See Lily? i already mentioned this: Affection. Please don't mistake physical affection with sexual intent, please.

I'm sure Pug is neither gay nor a pedophile...he's a member of the Alliance, which is even worse, but that's for another thread (to pug: the only thing more explosive than a religious debate is an argue between the Horde and the Alliance, have you seen people commenting on those videos? it's like they think those factions really exist and their lives were depending on them lol)

i just disagree

And you're free to do so, i was just trying to help you open your mind into understanding that not everything is as we may think. Again, affection and sexual intent are not always the same thing.

i connect the two examples.

Which two examples? you mean that you don't think gays are pedophiles and were trying to say that just as there are pedophiles and is not natural, the fact that there are gays doesn't make it any more natural (nature itself and plenty of biologists would tell otherwise btw) either?

well, you said:

I once saw a man lift up a toddler's shirt and rubbing it at the upper back while holding him. i think that little boy would probably grow up being gay

You're basicaly saying that gay people are "born" from (what you think is) a sexual abuse.

Anyway Lily one way or another, connecting a sexual orientation with a sexual abuse is an...unfortunate example. Try to avoid using pedophilia as an example for...anything really. Also if you ever talk to a gay person, keep that experience to yourself, you'll spare both of you a bad time.

Just as i understand the "Jesus mayonnaise (sounds so stupid as i write it lol)" being offensive, i think this example also is.

Lily i hope you understand what i said and what you do/think afterwards is up to you and none of my concern. Remember that we're free to think whatever we want but we're not always free to say what we think. Not because is forbiden, it's because you can hurt others.

 

[FountainandFairfax]

"And I shall continue to flag all offending comments that fall outside of this thread into Hades!"​

 

[Pacific_Loner]

I know this was originally Pacific_Loner's thread but then it was attached to Pug lol

Hmm? ......