What RELIGION are you?

[Zipper]

Re: Stop it please!

Hey,when are you going to stop with all this? :roll: Oh,Zipper,if only you hadn't started such a big subject. It's useless,nobody is going to change! if you don't stop this we won't be called social phobia forum anymore.

Look, the thought that people's minds aren't going to change has never held back a Christian from sharing the "Good News" that God enforces his law by rendering penalties upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute.

Christians feel free to traipse all around the world and all around the internet sharing these theories of God-man relations without any pangs of conscience at all. "Jesus is the ONLY way!" "God said so in the BIble!" There is a punishment for sin!

You cannot then cry foul when a person puts up a little resistence and says "NO! -- God enforces his law by transfiguring the non-believing law-breaker who yields himself to God's punishment!" This is all we have as our resistence to the Christian theories -- the faith that God's law-enforcement policies are not as described by the Bible. The faith that God did not speak his mind in the Bible.

If this thread is popular, it is because people want to discuss it. It is only one thread of thousands on this forum. If you would prefer not to consider the objections that people have to the "Good News" you are sharing, then that is your concern and you don't have to visit this thread.

 

[cLavain]

@Giolanda
I will shut up if you pay for a vacation to beautiful, warm Crete! Deal? 8) :lol: Aaaah, I could need that right now...

 

[Zipper]

The central question to be asked based on the neo-platonist understanding of God-man relations is, "How could the bath of divine light be experienced as pain by a human?" If God knows that it will be painful, then why does he do it?" What do you think?

God is going to put an end to evil in the cosmos, so far as he can without the cooperation of the wronger. For the person who refuses to give up his evil, the furthest God can go to put an end to the evil in him is to make him perceive the infinitely loathesome nature of the evil thing that he clings to -- to strip from him his self-deception.

The one deepest, highest, truest, fittest, most wholesome suffering must be generated in the wicked by a vision, a true sight, more or less adequate, of the hideousness of their lives, of the horror of the wrongs they have done. It would be hoped that through the eye-opening experience, they may come to see and do justice, may be brought to desire and make all possible amends, and so become just.

If a person will not be transfigured by the operation of God's fires, then what can we expect but for such a person to see their evil in the light? But such a vision is good even for the untransfigured. If evil is present, pain at recognition of the evil, being a kind of knowledge, is relatively good; for the alternative is that the soul should be ignorant of the evil, or ignorant that the evil is contrary to its nature, either of which, is manifestly bad. And I think, though we tremble, we agree.

 

[GIOLANDA]

@Giolanda
I will shut up if you pay for a vacation to beautiful, warm Crete! Deal? 8) :lol: Aaaah, I could need that right now...

Deal,but Greece means a lot of Christians! You have to be patient! :lol: :lol:

 

[Zipper]

@Giolanda
I will shut up if you pay for a vacation to beautiful, warm Crete! Deal? 8) :lol: Aaaah, I could need that right now...

Deal,but Greece means a lot of Christians! :

Greek Christians are Eastern Orthodox. In other words, in comparison to Protestants they are passable, tolerable, and mostly sane. The don't believe that God enforces his law by penalizing the wronger or Christ as a substitute.

 

[Zipper]

God didn't creat us imperfect, he created us free. If there is evil as a privation of good in the cosmos, it was because we started a slide towards non-being as a choice in the exercise of our freedom. We departed from the One. As the One starts up his engines, his fires, being will flood the cosmos, And little dark spots will be seen in contrast, unless they begin to glow.

 

[cLavain]

As the One starts up his engines, his fires, being will flood the cosmos, And little dark spots will be seen in contrast, unless they begin to glow.

Umm...right... You may want to reduce the dosage, Zip!

 

[cLavain]

@Giolanda
I will shut up if you pay for a vacation to beautiful, warm Crete! Deal? 8) :lol: Aaaah, I could need that right now...

Deal,but Greece means a lot of Christians! You have to be patient! :lol: :lol:

Ya, I've been there before. It's nice!

*waiting for ticket to arrive in mail box*

 

[spicecontroller]

right now im leaning towards taoism :wink:

 

[cLavain]

hey...you think something bad will happen when this thread gets to post number 666? we're halfway.

maybe we should avert armageddon by agreeing to disagree...i always knew there was a REASON for spw! this is our chance to divert armageddon! 'the meek shall inherit the earth!' <<thats us!!!! the meek! whos more meek than us? nobody! yay! 8O

But if we shall inherit the Earth then it is in our interest to bring about armageddon as soon as possible! :twisted:

Hail the horned one, people! You know you want to!


...aaaaand...post number 100!

 

[cLavain]

Hi cLavain,

Why do you have to bring God & the Universe & Darth Vader into it ??!
Let's base our conceptions of good & evil on what is beneficial or harmful to Man & Beast !

Having said that, it seems likely to me that good & evil are Universal moral concepts, as wherever civilization springs up in the Universe, concepts of moral good & evil are likely to evolve which are akin to those I previously set out; it's like evolutionary convergence applied to morality. So, actually, I think that moral good & evil are probably natural Universal concepts.

Hi,

Yes, our concepts of good and evil evolve, but since they vary between cultures and individuals as well as over time and between species, a universal definition would have to be vague and/or simple, something like the one you suggested. The devil is in the detail and actual application!

Anyway, your idea that certain moral standards will evolve independently in different cultures seems quite reasonable. I have already pointed out why altruism might survive natural selection, so there's no reason why convergence would not apply to this genetic trait as well, especially this one might argue. As long as one does not give this concept a supernatural origin, or think that some deity is going to frown upon transgressions.

The discovery of intelligent life on another planet (or moon) might help the research a bit.

 

[cLavain]

LOL, it's been a while since I read that book. It was funny, but a bit long considering there was no plot advancement to speak of! Of course, that was probably the point...

Anyway, as creators go, the creator of this particular universe can't possibly have had a master certificate! :? It doesn't even come with a user manual, or a guarantee!

 

[arabello]

I am a Muslim

 

[Zipper]

I am a Muslim

"Fear the fire, which is prepared for the disbelievers."
[Ali'-Imran, 3: 131]

“Those who have disbelieved in Our signs – We will burn them in fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We will exchange them for other skins so that they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
[Surah an-Nisa, 4: 56]

Islam and Christianity are sisters. I think Islam surpasses Christianity for the largest number of adherents. Both predict that there are infinite penalties for those who disbelieve the religion.

 

[Zipper]

I'm sorry for not responding more directly to your questions, Fr. Zosima. Part of the problem is that I don't know much yet. I am mostly ignorant about Neo-Platonism, God, virtue, truth, how to get into girls' panties, and everything else.

Also, as you are no doubt quite familiar with the problem, I live inside my own mind most of the time and thuse it can be quite an effort for me to deal with an inquiry or a concern presented to me from outside the cage of my own skull.

All I know is that you, I, and everybody else, fears for quite the wrong reasons. And this is especially true of Christians who have such a severely distorted understanding of the moral structure of the universe that their cognitive system ought to be regarded as a pathology. "God's wrath" does NOT exist as Christians imagine it to. The terror of God is his love.

 

[jss]

I'm sorry for not responding more directly to your questions, Fr. Zosima. Part of the problem is that I don't know much yet. I am mostly ignorant about Neo-Platonism, God, virtue, truth, how to get into girls' panties, and everything else.

Also, as you are no doubt quite familiar with the problem, I live inside my own mind most of the time and thuse it can be quite an effort for me to deal with an inquiry or a concern presented to me from outside the cage of my own skull.

All I know is that you, I, and everybody else, fears for quite the wrong reasons. And this is especially true of Christians who have such a severely distorted understanding of the moral structure of the universe that their cognitive system ought to be regarded as a pathology. "God's wrath" does NOT exist as Christians imagine it to. The terror of God is his love.

As I'm Christian I agree with you in the thoughts that love should be the main thing in our relationship with God.
I still remember the sentence in the bible "God is love"
and this is quite obvious in the story of redemption, that our lord Jesus Christ got tortured and suffered crucifixion for us.
I believe God loves us but in the same time hate sins.

Anyway I see the most important message in bible that he is saying "how much I love you, Man that I got sacrified and crucified to redeem you"
the next important message is that he is asking us to love him like he did and this is mentioned in many parts of bible
So I see the real relationship between God and man should be mutual love, but that true strong love that lead man to moralities and peaceful life.
But in the same time I beleive in the existence of hell for those who didn't accepted his love.
because it is normal prospect that if paradise exist for faithful people then hell exist for sinners or who didn't accept God's love
some other thing, I don't beleive that God take revenge when he punish us, it just like punishment for good.
Also I beleive that hell is not revenge but it is the fair punishment for devil and people who chose to follow devil

 

[Zipper]

I don't beleive that God take revenge when he punish us, it just like punishment for good. I beleive that hell is not revenge but it is the fair punishment for devil and people who chose to follow devil

If we consider hell as a punishment from God that does not have correction as its end (even for Satan) we must admit that it is a senseless punishment, unless we admit that God is an infinitely wicked being. It would be cruel for a man to do what the Bible says God is prepared to do.

If God's punishment is not ALWAYS remedial for ALL beings, then we can mean nothing by calling Him virtuous. If God’s conduct differs from ours so that our “cruelty” may be his “virtue," we can mean nothing by calling Him virtuous. The moral character of God's conduct must differ from ours not as white from black but as a perfect circle from a child's first attempt to draw a wheel.

For to say “God is virtuous,” while asserting that His virtue is wholly other than ours, is really only to say “God is we know not what.” And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him. If "virtuous" means "what God does" then to say "God is virtuous" can mean only "God does what he does." Which is equally true of you or me or Hitler or Stalin.

If He is not (in our sense) “virtuous” we shall obey, if at all, only through fear—and should be equally ready to obey an omnipotent Fiend. Thus, to believe, as the Bible teaches, that there is a divine penalty for the violation of God's law that God would render upon the non-believing sinner (or Christ as a substitute), turns Christianity into a form of devil-worship. Believing in a God whom we cannot but regard as evil, and then, in mere terrified flattery calling Him "virtuous" and worshipping Him, is a great danger.

Our lord Jesus Christ got tortured and suffered crucifixion for us.

You mention the atonement. -- The idea that God wants blood is at the bottom of the atonement, and rests upon the most fearful savagery. What man, who ever thinks, can believe that blood can appease God?

And yet, the entire Christian system of religion is based upon that belief. The Jews pacified Jehovah with the blood of animals, and according to the Christian system, the blood of Jesus softened the heart of God a little, and rendered possible the pardon of those who believe this presentation of God ("justification by faith").

It is hard to conceive how the human mind can give assent to such terrible ideas, or how any sane man can read the Bible and still believe it plausible that God said it.

 

[jss]

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, And a tooth for a tooth :
39 But I say unto you , That ye resist not evil : but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

- Matthew 5

Wow; I was aware of this contradiction in the Bible, but until I read that last night, I didn't realize that Jesus was directly contradicting the Old Testament !

If Jesus is God, then the Old Testament can't possibly be the Word of God (?). What do you Christians make of the Old Testament ? - Do you disregard it ??!

Well In my thoughts Jesus never reject the old testament he said in mattew 5:17 "I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill"

He just wanted to show us what redemption made for us, Fair God said "An eye for an eye, And a tooth for a tooth" this is the normal fair judgment for all humans before redemption.
But after redemption this is changed, because Jesus was coming by a love message to all the world. as he got punished for all world sins that no one will get punished for his sins anymore but with a condition that he must accept the love message coming from Jesus.

 

[cLavain]

...that no one will get punished for his sins anymore but with a condition that he must accept the love message coming from Jesus.

Ah, blackmail then... Not a giver this god of yours, is he..?

 

[jss]

...that no one will get punished for his sins anymore but with a condition that he must accept the love message coming from Jesus.

Ah, blackmail then... Not a giver this god of yours, is he..?

oh, I am not continuing in this conservation anymore.
I am not that religious or church regular attending person to be able to share in such a conservation.

I don't know what are you trying to do guys, my believes in God saved me 2 years ago from committing suicide because of suffering and pain caused because of social phobia.

Like now you are saying to me commit suicide because there is no punishment, life is pain so just end it.

I see this conversation became too exaggerated as it is not in the right place.
Actually I felt with regretting that I entered into that with you. the only thing that pushed me into this is because Zipper claimed that Orthodox have their own bible which is not true because in Egypt all christians sects including protestants and Catholics have only one bible and all beleive with any word of it.

So I ask moderators to stop this because it is not suitable for SP forum. and I see it not moral