What RELIGION are you?

[jss]

well you are lying man

Orthodox denomination never ignored the Biblical witness

I am not actually an Orthodox but I am christian Eastern and that thing is for sure

what are you trying to do man?

you go to sick Social Phobia people like us who are burdened with many pain and try to make use of their suffering for preaching to your relegion

you should get ashamed of your self

also another thing this forum is for Social Phobia related talking and not for religious talking

"
If you wish to stay a Christian, stay there for the liturgy, music, community, moral maturation, and mystical experience and ignore the bizarre theories of God-man relations. There is a Christian denomination that generally ignores the Biblical witness and employs a Neo-Platonist understanding of God-man relations. That Church is the Eastern Orthodox Church. They also, as it happens, have beautiful liturgy, music and emphasize mystical experience.

 

[Zipper]

well you are lying man. Orthodox denomination never ignored the Biblical witness.

Orthodox Christianity, like the NeoPlatonist religion, teaches that God's punishments are always pedagogical and remedial:

As Saint Isaac the Syrian says: "He who applies pedagogical punishments in order to give health, is punishing with love, but he who is looking for vengeance, is devoid of love. God punishes with love, not defending Himself—far be it—but He wants to heal His image, and He does not keep His wrath for long. This way of love is the way of uprightness, and it does not change with passion to a defense. A man who is just and wise is like God because he never chastises a man in revenge for wickedness, but only in order to correct him or that others be afraid" (Homily 73).

"Those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it" (Homily 84).

The Bible, however, teaches that there is a divine penalty for the infraction of God's law. The Bible describes God's law enforcement policy:

"The wages of sin is death." "The soul that sins shall die."
"There is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. … He will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds" (Romans 2:5-6, 8).

Insofar as remedial discipline is a different law enforcement policy than penalty for crimes, then the Orthodox Church ignores the Biblical teaching about God-man relations in favor of a more true teaching. Good for them, and good for you for not becoming a Biblical Protestant. Look, I'm in FAVOR of Byzantine Christianity (as compared to Protestantism). I would like you to be a Coptic Christian (If you must remain a Christian).

 

[Zipper]

From my reading of "The River of Fire", I'd say that the Orthodox aren't hostile to the Bible, they are hostile to the Western interpretation of the Bible. I wish you wouldn't be so misleading, Zipper.

The Bible is pretty clear that God has other reasons for punishing besides correction. The Bible teaches that God punishes for its own sake, as a make-up for sin, for divine revenge, for a satisfaction to justice. The Bible teaches that there is a divine penalty for sin.

God flooded the earth not for purposes of amending those he drowned, but because he was penally enforcing his law which the humans were ignoring.

God rained sulfur down on the Sodomites not for purposes of helping the Sodomites to leave their sins and be transfigured into more authentic people, but because he was requiting evil with grief as his mode of judging sinners.

The Orthodox so-called "interpretation" of the Bible is no interpretation of it at all, but is a rewriting of the document which ignores what it very clearly says: that God's wrath does not have the amelioration of the guilty as its end.

Anybody who believes that Essay "The River of Fire," does not believe the Bible. It is that essay which is misleading, not me.

 

[Zipper]

what are you trying to do man? you should get ashamed of your self.

In the estimation of good Biblical Christians I am a criminal, because I am trying to take from loving mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, and lovers the consolations naturally arising from a belief in an eternity of grief and pain.

I want to tear, break, and scatter to the winds the God that the Bible erected in the fields of innocent and uninhibited joy -- a God made of sticks called creeds, and of old clothes called myths. I shall endeavor to take from the coffin its horror, from the cradle its curse, and put out the fires of revenge kindled by a degenerate document.

Is it necessary that the Christian's hope of peace in the next life should be founded upon the non-Christian's grief? Is it necessary that Heaven should borrow its light from the glare of Hell? Why can't the Christian maintain hope in the next life without anxiously preaching that there is no hope for the non-Christian? The Biblical chain letter is extremely well structured for its survival and reproduction.

Offer yourself up to God's infinite punishment, judgment, and wrath -- he does it to correct, heal, and transfigure you. For that which cannot be shaken shall remain. That which is immortal in God shall remain in man. The death that is in them shall be consumed. It is the law of Nature- that is, the law of God-that all that is wrong shall be righted.

The Christian whose deeds are evil, attempts to evade God's punishment. But God's punishment will not come the less that he fears it or denies it. Escape is hopeless. For judgment is inexorable. The social phobe shall not come out of divine judgment till he has paid the uttermost farthing.

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[Si]

Firstly I would like to congradulate you Zipper on bringing this forum through to the 300 post mark.Well done.You also recieve the top award as the supreme master of confusion.You also must be congradulated for feeding the most amount of people the most amount of BULLSHIT !! in any single forum.
So what you are actually saying by denying the God of the bible is you are denying all his wisdom and instruction.So this must mean that the family unit of Mother, Father and children is also to be discarded.Gods laws must then mean nothing.Therefore murder, adultery, theft, rape etc etc etc must all be acceptable.We can then just become a law unto ourselves which is what is happening now when God is left out of society.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if the choice was between a loving God and the crap you are trying to push that God is the logical choice for salvation.

 

[analguy]

So what you are actually saying by denying the God of the bible is you are denying all his wisdom and instruction.So this must mean that the family unit of Mother, Father and children is also to be discarded.Gods laws must then mean nothing.Therefore murder, adultery, theft, rape etc etc etc must all be acceptable.We can then just become a law unto ourselves which is what is happening now when God is left out of society.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if the choice was between a loving God and the crap you are trying to push that God is the logical choice for salvation.

What a load of bollocks! Murder, adultery, theft, rape etc are things that most, if not all, cultures would deem as bad, whether they believe in God or not.

If I make up a story that says God does not want us to poke each other's eyes out, then does that mean that those who choose not to believe in God will go around poking each other's eyes out? Of course not. Just because one chooses not to believe in an entity of which there is no empirical evidence, does not mean that one opposes all the values that this entity supposedly espouses.

It's funny how you mention logic in your post. Religion and logic are not two things that I've seen together before. Even though a lot of religious people I know are perfectly logical people who believe in science, once they start talking religion it seems different rules apply. No matter how strong an argument (based on logic and science) against religion and the existence of God is constructed , theists come back with arguments that are dressed up as logic but are totally ridiculous.

But I don't believe religious people can help it. I believe that there is a biological basis for religious experience, that is, something in the brain that makes people susceptible to believing in God. Maybe it's an evolutionary thing, where in the past this belief bonded people together and therefore helped them to survive, I don't know.

Whatever it is, I hope that weakness gets eliminated from the human race over time, I think religion has done enough damage already.

I do agree that Zipper's post was a confusing piece of bullshit too though.

 

[Remus]

Are you bible haters the ones going around burning churches???? :?

I said I was not going to come back, but after watching in the news that a couple of people are going around burning churches, I thought of this post and the user who said he wanted to burn every bible in the world to stop the evil chain letter, the bible.

You moron.

I missed this

you are on a warning for a personal attack, carry on and its a week ban

 

[cLavain]

Hi Everyone,

Does God really care whether we believe in Him or not ?

- Or does He just want us to enjoy life while being kind & considerate to others ?!

Let us not avoid the basic premise.

If God's existence can not be proven and remains speculation then it logically follows that any subsequent debate about what God is or wants can only be based on uneducated guesswork.

 

[Zipper]

what you are saying by denying the God of the bible is you are denying all his wisdom and instruction.So this must mean that the family unit of Mother, Father and children is also to be discarded. Therefore murder, adultery, theft, rape etc etc etc must all be acceptable.

I am not saying there is no divine law.

What I am saying is that the Bible is not a true description of God's policy of enforcing his law. God as a law-enforcer does not enforce it by rendering infinite penalties upon the non-believing law breaker -- bringing the wronger to grief.

Rather, he enforces his law by teaching the non-believing law breaker to see what he has done wrong and to come out of his sin by making restitution -- bringing the wronger to joy.

In short, I am saying that the operation of divine justice has remediation as its end rather than revenge. The operation of God's wrath shall deliver the sinner from his sin, so yield yourself to its operation!

"If anyone asserts that it is just to render to every man his due, and if he understands by this, that what is due on the part of the just man is injury to his enemies, and assistance to his friends, the assertion is that of an unwise man. For the doctrine is untrue, because we have discovered that in no instance is it just to injure anybody."
[Plato: "The Republic" Book 1, 335 e ]

If you find it necessary to read it written down that it is wrong to do to others what you would not like them to do to you, then please ask and I will write it down and send it to you as a private message. I am very sympathetic to the difficulties that many people have in discovering what is right to do without having it presented to them by a document with presumptuous self-styled authority, so if you need it I can prepare such a document for you.

 

[Zipper]

I'm glad you agree with me that "The River of Fire" is barmy nonsense !!

I don't believe it is nonsense -- I believe that it is a true explanation of a person's experience in the eternal world bathed in the fire of God's love. I just recognize that this is NOT what the Bible teaches about the human's experience of God in the eternal world.

In short, I believe what "The River of Fire" says, but I see that it is not Biblical teaching as Mr. Kalimiros pretends that it is.

http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

 

[cLavain]

So what you are actually saying by denying the God of the bible is you are denying all his wisdom and instruction.So this must mean that the family unit of Mother, Father and children is also to be discarded.Gods laws must then mean nothing.Therefore murder, adultery, theft, rape etc etc etc must all be acceptable.

Talk about a leap in logic!

If you don't believe in the Bible, you don't believe in the family. If you dont believe in the family you believe rape and murder is good. Ergo: If you don't believe in the Christian god you are incapable of having any moral standards at all.

Si, I honestly don't know where to begin...

Here's a little something to get you started:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)

 

[Zipper]

What you are saying by denying the God of the bible is you are denying all his wisdom and instruction.So this must mean that the family unit of Mother, Father and children is also to be discarded. Therefore murder, adultery, theft, rape etc etc etc must all be acceptable.

You deny the God of the Koran which prohibits murder -- does that mean murder is acceptable to you? How many of these religious Scriptures do you deny?:

'Nature urges that a man should wish human society to exist and should wish to enter it.' (Roman. Cicero, De Officiis, i. iv)
'By the fundamental Law of Nature Man [is] to be preserved as much as possible.' (Locke, Treatises of Civil Govt. ii. 3)
'When the people have multiplied, what next should be done for them? The Master said. Enrich them. Jan Ch'iu said, When one has enriched them, what next should be done for them? The Master said, Instruct them,' (Ancient Chinese. Analects, xiii. 9)
'Speak kindness ... show good will.' (Babylonian. Hymn to Samas. ERE 445)
'Men were brought into existence for the sake of men that they might do one another good;' (Roman. Cicero. De Off. i. vii)
'Man is man's delight.' (Old Norse. Havamal 47)
'He who is asked for alms should always give.' (Hindu. Janet, i.7)
'What good man regards any misfortune as no concern of his?' (Roman. Juvenal xv. 140)
'I am a man: nothing human is alien to me,' (Roman. Terence, Heattt. Tim.)

You know what God requires of you is right—much of it at least you believe to be right, and your duty to do, whether he said it or not: do it.

Suppose it should turn out that no such person as Christ ever lived. What harm would that do justice or mercy? Wouldn't the tear of pity be as pure as now, and wouldn't justice, holding aloft her scales, from which she blows even the dust of prejudice, be as noble, as admirable as now? Is it not better to love justice and mercy than to love a name, and when you put a name above justice, above mercy, are you sure that you are advancing toward truth?

Even a God must do justice; even a God must worship justice; and any form of superstition that destroys justice is infamous!

 

[JamesScr]

Ive studied and practised buddhism but i dont call myself one.

 

[jss]

From my reading of "The River of Fire", I'd say that the Orthodox aren't hostile to the Bible, they are hostile to the Western interpretation of the Bible. I wish you wouldn't be so misleading, Zipper.

The Bible is pretty clear that God has other reasons for punishing besides correction. The Bible teaches that God punishes for its own sake, as a make-up for sin, for divine revenge, for a satisfaction to justice. The Bible teaches that there is a divine penalty for sin.

God flooded the earth not for purposes of amending those he drowned, but because he was penally enforcing his law which the humans were ignoring.

God rained sulfur down on the Sodomites not for purposes of helping the Sodomites to leave their sins and be transfigured into more authentic people, but because he was requiting evil with grief as his mode of judging sinners.

The Orthodox so-called "interpretation" of the Bible is no interpretation of it at all, but is a rewriting of the document which ignores what it very clearly says: that God's wrath does not have the amelioration of the guilty as its end.

Huh

I don't know what you are trying to say

But like I told you I am Eastern from Egypt

and Bible here is the same for all Christians Orthodox,Catholic and Protestant

also for you to know Coptics are not another sect of Christians but actually this word means Egyptians and nowadays it refers to Egyptians Christians only
and all of us (Christians of Egypt) believe in each word of the Bible

they only differ in the interpretation but the book itself is the same.

 

[cLavain]

Well, I may not be sane, but I read the two first parts of The River of Fire, and Kalomiros has an interesting take on Western theology. The god of the Bible is certainly not endearing!

Atheism is the denial, the negation of an evil God. Men became atheists in order to be saved from God, hiding their head and closing their eyes like an ostrich

Ah, how very convenient! The expression "closing their eyes like an ostrich" is particularly ironic. The God delusion does not allow Kalomiros to consider that the opposite might be true. Religion is dependent on people NOT confronting reality. Removing the veil of theology will expose the poor foundation of ALL religions. The existence of God has no observable effect on the universe that cannot be explained by other, more probable forces. But Kalomiros' life is defined by his belief in God, it is unthinkable for him to even question this basic premise, thus he must invent some comforting explanation for atheism.

...and I skipped to the end. :wink:

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Guesswork, Kalomiros. Please provide evidence that can be peer-reviewed.

 

[Zipper]

Neo-Platonists believe that God punishes only to amend.

In the eternal world, there are no external penalties for crimes, there are no external rewards for belief. Neither is there a heavenly static state of "doing the right thing." The only perfection can be found in dynamic change.

There is just the bath of divine light which is purgatorial judgment. For those who wish to be synergistically transfigured by the operation of the judgment, it is a mixture of pain and joy. It is also pain and joy for those who wish to cling to their evil. There is no moral progress or learning without pain, and anxiety.

God is fire; this fire turns about searching to find material — that is a disposition and an intention that is good — to fall into and to kindle; and for those in whom this fire will ignite, it becomes a great flame, which reaches Heaven.... this flame at first purifies us from the pollution of passions and then it becomes in us food and drink and light and joy, and renders us light ourselves because we participate in His light"

But the greatest joy comes to those who wish to participate in the light, and the greatest pain comes to those who wish to remain darkness.

Love will enrobe everything with its sacred Fire which will flow like a river from the throne of God and will irrigate paradise. But this same river of Love — for those who have hate in their hearts — will suffocate and burn.

The central question to be asked based on the neo-platonist understanding of God-man relations is, "How could the bath of divine light be experienced as pain by a human?" If God knows that it will be painful, then why does he do it?" What do you think?

 

[Zipper]

Guesswork, Kalomiros. Please provide evidence that can be peer-reviewed.

That is the best thing about Neo-Platonism as a religious theory about the moral structure of the universe -- it is empirically testable and verifiable. If you want to know how divine judgment operates, test it and measure it. If you want to know what effect the operation of divine love has on the impenitently cruel, then test it and measure it.

 

[cLavain]

Guesswork, Kalomiros. Please provide evidence that can be peer-reviewed.

That is the best thing about Neo-Platonism as a religious theory about the moral structure of the universe -- it is empirically testable and verifiable. If you want to know how divine judgment operates, test it and measure it. If you want to know what effect the operation of divine love has on the impenitently cruel, then test it and measure it.

Then please explain the protocol for such a test!

But this same river of Love — for those who have hate in their hearts — will suffocate and burn.

And here we have one of the biggest problems with religion. It always makes a clean separation between "us" and "them". Hate can only be found in others, those who do not believe as I do. Wrong! We all have both love and hate in us, whether you choose to believe in God or not!

 

[Si]

No comment.Just checking how quick the non-believers would rush to this forum when they recieved a reply notification that " Si " had posted. :lol: :lol:

 

[GIOLANDA]

Stop it please!

Hey,when are you going to stop with all this? :roll: Oh,Zipper,if only you hadn't started such a big subject. It's useless,nobody is going to change! And cLavain,I appreciate your passion,it's obvious that you've searched so much,but if you don't stop this we won't be called social phobia forum anymore :lol: I agree with Si anyway and I wish you to be happy with what you've chosen to believe(I'm talking about you all,not only for cLavain). At least,SA is sth that we have in common :lol: