Very helpful self-help material
- Thread starter finnishman1968
- Start date
sabbath9
Banned
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) made me worse. It's interesting to read, but I don't use CBT anymore. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) works for me. It hasn't cured me, but it has helped me a lot.
CBT says "replace original, unhelpful thought with a new balanced, helpful thought". Like Joe Walsh once said "you can't argue with a sick mind". CBT had me debating myself so much I avoided my life.
ACT says: notice unhelpful thoughts, thank your mind for it's input, take action based on your values.
I'd suggest everyone download and read this stuff, but realize a lot of it is obsolete. For most of us we can't just tell our minds to think logically all the time. Our brains are critical machines, when they stop being critical then we're in trouble too.
CBT says "replace original, unhelpful thought with a new balanced, helpful thought". Like Joe Walsh once said "you can't argue with a sick mind". CBT had me debating myself so much I avoided my life.
ACT says: notice unhelpful thoughts, thank your mind for it's input, take action based on your values.
I'd suggest everyone download and read this stuff, but realize a lot of it is obsolete. For most of us we can't just tell our minds to think logically all the time. Our brains are critical machines, when they stop being critical then we're in trouble too.
kayelle
1
Sabbath, I've been reading ACT books lately and have definitely found them very helpful. But for me, they have kind of added to what I've been learning in CBT. I don't think CBT is about replacing bad thoughts with good, and trying to supress bad thoughts. At least the CBT I've been doing with my therapist is more about listening to the actual thoughts you're telling yourself, really naming and noticing those automatic bad negative thoughts so that you can recognise that they aren't real, and you can start thinking positive thoughts as well as those automatic negative ones. Also, in the CBT i did there was a lot of features of ACT in it already, things like just noticing bad thoughts instead of reacting to them. Maybe my psychologist is a bit different!
I find that both ACT and CBT can work together, in recognising the negative thoughts and not reacting to them.
Thanks for this stuff finnishman1968! I find being really informed on my anxiety can help me notice what my problems are and how I can overcome them.
I find that both ACT and CBT can work together, in recognising the negative thoughts and not reacting to them.
Thanks for this stuff finnishman1968! I find being really informed on my anxiety can help me notice what my problems are and how I can overcome them.
sabbath9
Banned
Yep kayelle, you're right, CBT isn't all bad. The part of CBT that didn't help me was trying to change thoughts, beliefs, etc. By having to create "positive" thoughts when I had automatic "negative" thoughts, I would be frozen by debate and inaction.
Instead ACT says I should be non-judgmental about how my mind and body react to different situations. I focus on taking action regardless of my thoughts, emotions, etc. Also using my own values to guide and motivate me helps a lot too. Mindfulness is another big component of ACT that isn't covered enough in CBT imho.
Thanks for the link finnishman1968, lots of good stuff in there.
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finnishman1968
New member
Sabbath9, you wouldn't actually underwrite your first statement "CBT made me worse", would you? It didn't cure you, that constant debating yourself left you feeling exhausted at times but, overall, you are now glad you did it, right? I believe it is beneficial for everyone to learn to recognize the cognitive errors (= unhelpful thoughts).
For me, too, it was very difficult to make the negative core beliefs to change. During my first decades, I had learned to think "I, other people, and the whole universe are lousy". I had to bomb that core belief with CBT for years before it changed into "I, other people, and the whole universe have done some bad things, but we have done many good things, too, and so overall I'd say we are OK". Wow! We are all OK! Me, too! That revelation made my depression go away. And it is a huge achievement I can say without hesitation, after decades of dark mood. CBT helped me a lot. (Do notice: Low self-esteem and depression seem to be heavily linked.)
However, CBT did not make my social phobia go away. At least, not yet. There seems to be the core belief "I have some reason to fear other people" that still lingers in me. Maybe I have to bomb it with CBT for years and years, until it changes into "actually, I don't need to fear other people any more than they need to fear me" for good, and I can go out confidently and face other people on an equal footing.
Sabbath9 and Kayelle, thank you very much for bringing ACT into my knowledge. I haven't yet really immerged in it but it seems to be a great add to CBT. CBT and ACT could be a powerful combination. (Do notice: Every ism has something to give. Take what you need.)
In ACT I'm especially enthusiastic about "the mindfulness". I've encountered that term before but it always put me off as somehow too spiritual (maybe because English isn't my mother language, and I sensed the meaning of the word incorrectly). But, actually, "the mindfulness" seems to mean just, "Don't think so damn much! Live, instead!"
That is exactly what I've discovered through my own experiences. My theory is that too conscious thinking overstrain the brain, quite mechanically, and that causes stress, fatigue, tension, anxiety, all kinds of harm, you name it.
When I'm able to hold my thinking in check and focus my attention from my thoughts to the outside world, I begin to feel better, gradually, after a day or two. Social phobia eases up, my posture straightens, my eyes get comfortable, my speech more fluent… The change is thoroughgoing. My conclusion: My brain rests and relaxes, I relax, my whole body relaxes.
The problem is that when I begin to feel good my mind (those damn thoughts) gets too active again, and it seems I can't do anything to stop it. I start to plan, organize, dream, build a better future in my mind, and of course, so much thinking leads to… The brain gets overloaded. Relaxation disappears. I get stressed. The problems are back. (Maybe this could be explanation for mood swings? I think I had cyclothymia for decades. Based on my experiences I'd say cyclothymia is a form of depression, with ups and downs.)
Of course, it's difficult to hold thoughts in check, when you have a lot to think about. I couldn't have practiced the mindfulness very successfully when I was depressed and blamed myself, other people, and the whole universe for everything. CBT (or just CT = Cognitive Therapy) helped me to clear my mind, and now hopefully it will be easier for me to become mindful and relax.
I think Simplejack is speaking about the "mindfulness" in this: http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/my-way-to-fix-social-phobia-17615/
And everyone, please do check Sabbath9's input http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/act-14150/ and that site he is promoting.
Some tips:
- It's beneficial to stay physically fit. Stretching helps your body to relax.
- Learn to breath properly. (Check that site I'm promoting at the beginning of this thread and see what they write about social phobia.)
- I liked meditation, though I don't it anymore because at the end I got bored. It's a good way to learn what the mindfulness means.
- If you have sleep problems or mood swings, try to keep your daily schedule as regular as possible. Go to bed and rise at the same time every day, if possible.
This was just my brief visit to SocialPhobiaWorld.com. I'm now returning to my other activities and probably won't respond to possible replies.
Thanks! Take care!
For me, too, it was very difficult to make the negative core beliefs to change. During my first decades, I had learned to think "I, other people, and the whole universe are lousy". I had to bomb that core belief with CBT for years before it changed into "I, other people, and the whole universe have done some bad things, but we have done many good things, too, and so overall I'd say we are OK". Wow! We are all OK! Me, too! That revelation made my depression go away. And it is a huge achievement I can say without hesitation, after decades of dark mood. CBT helped me a lot. (Do notice: Low self-esteem and depression seem to be heavily linked.)
However, CBT did not make my social phobia go away. At least, not yet. There seems to be the core belief "I have some reason to fear other people" that still lingers in me. Maybe I have to bomb it with CBT for years and years, until it changes into "actually, I don't need to fear other people any more than they need to fear me" for good, and I can go out confidently and face other people on an equal footing.
Sabbath9 and Kayelle, thank you very much for bringing ACT into my knowledge. I haven't yet really immerged in it but it seems to be a great add to CBT. CBT and ACT could be a powerful combination. (Do notice: Every ism has something to give. Take what you need.)
In ACT I'm especially enthusiastic about "the mindfulness". I've encountered that term before but it always put me off as somehow too spiritual (maybe because English isn't my mother language, and I sensed the meaning of the word incorrectly). But, actually, "the mindfulness" seems to mean just, "Don't think so damn much! Live, instead!"
That is exactly what I've discovered through my own experiences. My theory is that too conscious thinking overstrain the brain, quite mechanically, and that causes stress, fatigue, tension, anxiety, all kinds of harm, you name it.
When I'm able to hold my thinking in check and focus my attention from my thoughts to the outside world, I begin to feel better, gradually, after a day or two. Social phobia eases up, my posture straightens, my eyes get comfortable, my speech more fluent… The change is thoroughgoing. My conclusion: My brain rests and relaxes, I relax, my whole body relaxes.
The problem is that when I begin to feel good my mind (those damn thoughts) gets too active again, and it seems I can't do anything to stop it. I start to plan, organize, dream, build a better future in my mind, and of course, so much thinking leads to… The brain gets overloaded. Relaxation disappears. I get stressed. The problems are back. (Maybe this could be explanation for mood swings? I think I had cyclothymia for decades. Based on my experiences I'd say cyclothymia is a form of depression, with ups and downs.)
Of course, it's difficult to hold thoughts in check, when you have a lot to think about. I couldn't have practiced the mindfulness very successfully when I was depressed and blamed myself, other people, and the whole universe for everything. CBT (or just CT = Cognitive Therapy) helped me to clear my mind, and now hopefully it will be easier for me to become mindful and relax.
I think Simplejack is speaking about the "mindfulness" in this: http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/my-way-to-fix-social-phobia-17615/
And everyone, please do check Sabbath9's input http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/act-14150/ and that site he is promoting.
Some tips:
- It's beneficial to stay physically fit. Stretching helps your body to relax.
- Learn to breath properly. (Check that site I'm promoting at the beginning of this thread and see what they write about social phobia.)
- I liked meditation, though I don't it anymore because at the end I got bored. It's a good way to learn what the mindfulness means.
- If you have sleep problems or mood swings, try to keep your daily schedule as regular as possible. Go to bed and rise at the same time every day, if possible.
This was just my brief visit to SocialPhobiaWorld.com. I'm now returning to my other activities and probably won't respond to possible replies.
Thanks! Take care!
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finnishman1968
New member
One more tip:
Suicide tempted me at times but at such moments I always thougt, "If I'm ready to die I really don't have anything to lose, so I might as well stick around and look what will happen. It's more interesting to live than to die." I'm sure you understand that I'm now happy I stayed with you.
Suicide tempted me at times but at such moments I always thougt, "If I'm ready to die I really don't have anything to lose, so I might as well stick around and look what will happen. It's more interesting to live than to die." I'm sure you understand that I'm now happy I stayed with you.
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Aussie_Lad
Well-known member
Thought I would bump this up, as I recently came across the link on a Google search (for low self esteem), and it seems to have some very useful information.
JamesSmith
Well-known member
Yes! This is what I've been trying to tell people: You can't "think" yourself out of anxiety. If anything our problem is that we think too much. You must teach your body to relax, and your mind will follow suit.
Quiet Angel
Well-known member
Thank you so much. I think this will really help me.
uhmm_doh
Member
That's the attitude I try to take. If I hate my situation so badly that I'm willing to kill myself, I don't have anything to lose by giving everything I have to overcome my fears. I've given myself a 'deadline' to overcome anxiety, and if I don't, I'm going to kill myself. I think as i approach the deadline, I'll start fearing social situations less because I'll be fearing death instead.
oh gosh, umm doh!! no no no!! don't do that!!
suicide is *never* a good option!! not an option at all!!
rather choose something else that is annoying but not so 'final' - eg if you are afraid of swimming pools or how you look in swim trunks, give yourself a consequence to go to a certain social event (eg poetry reading, those are easy) OR a swimming pool!! Get what I mean? They are both social events, neither of them is 'final'!!!
Even if you are very good in CBT or ACT etc sometimes anxiety can 'come back' or be slightly present in NEW situations (even if you have mastered it in most 'usual' life situations), and some people are VERY sweet even if they have some anxiety - like my Grandma - we totally adore her anyway!!
So rather than that, work on accepting yourself even with some slight imperfections, like anxiety? no?
Nutrition & lifestyle can be a factor too... Wouldn't it be silly to commit suicide over food allergy or something like that??
UnOccupied
Well-known member
I've seen this post before by you. In my opinion, CBT may not be the best therapy out there. But, it is therapy, and a step in the right direction for anyone taking part in it.
Please, refrain from steering others away from CBT. I ask this because it has helped a lot of people. It is actually the ONLY proven effective cure for anxiety disorders. Just because you didn't have success with your particular program does not mean it won't work work anyone else.
freestylemonster
Banned
That's a great post! I'm going to start saying that when I get suicidal!