To the overly confident advisers here

[vj288]

............

 

[Louco]

I think this thread will probably just divide the strugglers and the 'overly confident advisers' and not really serve any purpose :/

I regard everyone here as an individual, with their own conscience, beliefs, way of thinking and motives. When I say "they", it's "the people who behave like this". Someone can start or stop behaving like this anytime, a person doing this could decide to change their ways and be yet to post anything showing that change, so you see I couldn't pick them among the others and make a visible group of them even if I wanted. Because that's not my goal.

I'm not picking a fight, it's just that you can't be all meek and lovely when resisting people so sure of themselves trying to influence you, and I'm certainly not afraid of their emotional responses. The fact is that I love peace and understanding, which is why I don't excuse myself of being harsh when needed to make things better, or I will end being under the whims of the agressive and the imposing.

By the way, this thread is already giving some awesome results.

 

[Louco]

I understand your point but the fact stays, I got where I am right now by being shit-scared to the point of black-out, blushing, blanking, shaking, stuttering, doing loads of mistakes, failing and humiliating myself BUT doing it anyway.

This is precisely what I'm talking about.

My friend, you are not doing that to yourself. It is a very real medical condition making your body and mind behave in a way it shouldn't, and that is out of your control.

Why would you even think that you are doing this to yourself? Even the idea of doing this unconsciously as a trait of your personality would make zero sense, you get no twisted satisfaction or pleasure from this. You are only suffering.

You know, maybe sometimes we like to think like this because it feels better to be perfectly in control than to be a victim of the circunstances, even if it would mean being guilty of our own suffering and choosing to do nothing.

And then comes the people I'm talking about in this thread and make things worse. That is, if they didn't convince you of this in the first place.

There's no need to think like this or feel hopeless either. You can overcome it with the proper treatment, it is excrutiating to fight this alone.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

^Proper treatment you mean medication and/or therapy?

 

[MollyBeGood]

This is a good thread. I really like the idea of challenging those who think they have it all figured out. Good for you for bringing this topic up. There are a lot of interesting responses to your post.

 

[PugofCrydee]

I'm not sure anyone here thinks they have it 'all figured out'.

If I am wrong, please link where it says they do. Cheers.

 

[squidgee]

My friend, you are not doing that to yourself. It is a very real medical condition making your body and mind behave in a way it shouldn't, and that is out of your control.

That's a bit of a stretch to be honest. I read this kind of sentiment numerous times on similar threads, and I can't help but feel that we should seriously avoid using terms like "terrible disease" with regards to social anxiety. It just seems to further medicalise the issue and make it sound a lot more unnecessarily imposing and harder to fix than it is.

Now I'm not denying that social anxiety can be difficult to manage and potentially very damaging to one's quality of life, but let's look at it as what it really is. Social anxiety is essentially 'just' a mixture of social incompetence and self-consciousness to a greater extent than most people would normally experience. That's it. Is there a biological and genetic component to it all that makes me unable to experience the level of normalcy that other people do? Maybe. Probably. But wouldn't it be more constructive if we improved on these problems just as you would if we didn't go all the way to call it an untreatable medical condition, and maybe we'd all be met with more success (even if just a little) than if we resigned and pushed most of the blame on this supposedly incurable illness.

Now I mostly agree with your general sentiment about overly confident advisers, but the tone of your post does sound kinda defeatist, even if you say it isn't.

You know, maybe sometimes we like to think like this because it feels better to be perfectly in control than to be a victim of the circunstances, even if it would mean being guilty of our own suffering and choosing to do nothing.

In my experience, it seems to be the other way around. Some people feel more comforted that their feelings might be out of their control and thus they have justification for not doing anything about it.

 

[SoScared]

This is a good thread. I really like the idea of challenging those who think they have it all figured out. Good for you for bringing this topic up. There are a lot of interesting responses to your post.

I do have it all figured out. I'm just not very good at applying everything i'm learnt consistantly. For this reason i do enjoy the posts by particular posters who have got it all figured out because thier posts are often very simple and informative. Yes, they are reminding me about something that i already know but for me it works to have this sort of reinforcement.

 

[Megaten]

When I read the words of an "over confident adviser" I usually assume that the adviser is trying to convince themselves more than the people they are "advising".
Let's face it, someone with a lot of great things going on in their lives aren't going to have a lot of time to hang around a site like this "advising" the downtrodden. Humans don't work like that.

Yeah a lot of people, once their lives truly start to turn around, just vanish altogether. Theres no sticking around to help people, they've gotten what they want out of the forum. I for one know what I should be doing, but actually doing it is another matter. But Im getting the impression that some people assume that if I or anyone else gives them advice, that means we dont have our own personal struggles and are just hanging around to boost our egos. I wont be doing it anymore though. Giving people advice is a dangerous affair. I should have learned that lesson in real life when I lost a friend over it.

 

[MollyBeGood]

Maybe it's all in my head, but there are a few people here that say very cookie cutter advice things often to people struggling and it does come off as smug and it prevents me from wanting to even to a part of this forum for fear that they will attack me in a post. I know I am not the only one who feels this way like the OP, who was brave enough to point it out. I don't have time to go back and fourth and argue with people here about this. usually folks who feel they have defeated what they were here for to begin with leave anyway and go write e-books to try to sell here later on. I don't feel there is a way to defeat brain chemistry at this point. I am probably not making any sense right now but I do think it is OK to disagree with advice. It is OK to question everything.

 

[Louco]

That thread you linked, the one you criticized so extensively, is probably my favorite on the site and has has helped me more than any other I've read. I don't read it as some arrogant, god-playing self-help book, I read it as someone who has suffered the same way I have, thought about possible solutions, and identified what worked for him and what didn't. And in reading through the forums, probably realized (accurately) that many others think the same way.

So when I sit down, and I want to make positive changes in my life, I look to threads like that. I try to think like that. I realize that magical thinking is just escapism (FOR ME). And that trying to bite off more than I an chew will more likely set me back, and slow and steady works best (FOR ME). And that making a plan and sticking to it can have amazing results, or so it did for me. I made a whole thread dedicated to this idea, and again the level it helped me is immeasurable.

I never said ideas like "stick to a plan instead of giving up all the time" are bad. Things like that are just plain common sense.

The problem is trying to convince people with social anxiety disorder that they are suffering only because they are not applying your simple solutions to their lives.

How many times will you make me repeat myself? If you are just shy, lazy or unmotivated this may work for you, but people with social anxiety disorder fight a losing battle against overwhelming feelings AND physical symptoms like tachycardia, problems with the blood pressure, cold sweat, tremors, heartburn and many other things. They should seek treatment to live a normal life instead of suffering horribly trying to live a normal life. I have already explained all this in detail with a medical source.

And so I thank the OP of that thread, as well as everyone else on this forum who has tried to be positive, helpful, and go out of their way to make a difference in other peoples lives here, even if it's just a little bit. Although everyone may not feel the same, I, and I think many others, certainly appreciate it. So again, thank you.

So I don't appreciate people who try to be positive, helpful, and go out of their way to make a difference in other peoples lives here. That's obviously what you mean with "Although everyone may not feel the same", even if I have made the purpose of this thread crystal clear over and over again.

That's cute. You read and understand only what you want. A thread is wonderful if make you feel better and comes from the hands of a demon when you don't like it.

Let's take a closer look at the thread you think is the best around here, to see if it's really this oasis of healing:

Shield there is certainly much truth in what you write but do you think SP would go away if people eliminated these mistakes or thinking patterns? I know from my experience that it wouldn´t. You can change a lot, that´s true, but your shyness remains. Did you ever have SA yourself? Things are often not as plain and easy as they look.

The answers she got:

I had SA bad. You are wrong. Your shyness will disappear if you confront your social fears on a regular basis for a long enough period of time. I'm 100% on this. If you are still feeling shy then its probably because you have done one of the things mentioned above.

Insightful post, shield.

I had SA too. In retrospect, there is only one major difference between people who appear confident and people who feel they lack confidence. People who appear confident USE their anxiety more productively than people who appear shy or not confident.

I don't think you have a disease, Lea.

Everyone has a certain 'energy' around social interaction. What you do with that energy affects your interpretation of reality and your self image.

Its like riding a rollercoaster: Some people LOVE rollercoasters - they interpret the vertigo and adrenaline they feel as positive energy and excitement. Some people HATE rollercoasters - they interpret the vertigo and adrenaline as DANGER and UNCONTROLLED RISK.

People who appear socially confident see the world as a SAFE place full of EXCITING CHALLENGE, LOVE, and OPPORTUNITY. They are, in a way, CONSPIRACY THEORISTS who believe that everyone in the world is out to HELP THEM.

People who have SA or appear socially awkward and lacking in confidence see the world as a DANGEROUS place full of PITFALLS, HATE, and potential DISASTER. They are also, in a way, conspiracy theorists who believe everyone in the world can SEE THEIR FLAWS and is out to SHAME THEM.

Lea questioned the thread because her own experience struggling against the disorder made it clear that it was not a matter of just changing her attitude and way of thinking.

Her experience was dismissed because the OP knows her better than herself, he is 100% sure. She is just shy and guilty of not following his wisdom. Just trust him. Everything she has done, all her efforts for overcoming the disease, which no one have any idea how hard could have been but herself, just promptly dismissed, without a second thought. The guy is sure, 100%.

Also she apparently is not even sick, but actually a conspiracy theorist.

I agree, it is the best thread of this forum. The best thread to show how vicious, conceited, selfish and blind to other people's suffering the human nature can be.

By refusing to see what happened to people like Lea there you show zero empathy for others, only for yourself. Do you really think your kindness outshines the sun? Such a display of arrogance and patronizing attitude right in the first page of that thread, but since it was not against you, those people were probably just being kind to her, right? That thread is made of pure awesome and win anyway, since it helped you wonders.

I could make a book out of the instances of people being hurt by this kind of stupidity and arrogance in that thread, they are all over it.

 

[Louco]

^Proper treatment you mean medication and/or therapy?

The CBT when correctly done to treat social phobia by a capable professional really seems like a very good idea.

I know how tiring the search for something this specific can be, but it is worth the effort. Just watch out for medics offering a general and shallow CBT instead of the treatment you really need. Sometimes they don't know it better themselves and are promising what they can't deliver.

The guidelines in this site really helped me: Comprehensive Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy | Social Anxiety Association

About medication, maybe you need, only a psychiatrist could say that. It seems antidepressants are not that effective against social phobia, sedatives like Clonazepam could be more adequate to deal with the peaks of anxiety when they come.

It's hard to escape the cycle of feeling depressed because you can't leave home and not having the energy to fight the social phobia because you are depressed, some medicine can help here. The good news is that getting better of the social fobia works wonders on the depression, so it's very likely you wouldn't have to take medication because of that for long.

 

[Louco]

That's a bit of a stretch to be honest. I read this kind of sentiment numerous times on similar threads, and I can't help but feel that we should seriously avoid using terms like "terrible disease" with regards to social anxiety. It just seems to further medicalise the issue and make it sound a lot more unnecessarily imposing and harder to fix than it is.

Yeah, let's ignore what the people suffering with the disorder themselves say, and also the results of decades of research to understand and treat the disorder. When we think it is a disease it makes it look ugly.

If it's not a disease, I wonder why anyone would seek treatment. I mean, there's a treatment out there making it possible for people with social phobia to get better and live normal lives without the symptons with as high as 90% of success, when most people trying by themselves usually can't go anywhere or just live an apparent normal life with the anxiety still torturing them every day, but it's obviously overkill and unnecessary.

Now I'm not denying that social anxiety can be difficult to manage and potentially very damaging to one's quality of life, but let's look at it as what it really is. Social anxiety is essentially 'just' a mixture of social incompetence and self-consciousness to a greater extent than most people would normally experience. That's it.

What to answer to this terrifying level of ignorance? I mean, this person never read a single post of the people struggling with the disorder here? Never read a single thing about it on the internet?

And you are inviting me to look at what it is? When you don't have the slightest idea?

Is there a biological and genetic component to it all that makes me unable to experience the level of normalcy that other people do? Maybe. Probably. But wouldn't it be more constructive if we improved on these problems just as you would if we didn't go all the way to call it an untreatable medical condition, and maybe we'd all be met with more success (even if just a little) than if we resigned and pushed most of the blame on this supposedly incurable illness.

No, it would be more constructive if people with social phobia were able to make their effort for getting cured, with what we have plenty of evidence as being a very good treatment, without people who don't know anything of what they are talking about trying to make them feel guilty for not doing what they have already tried their whole lives but couldn't.

Now I mostly agree with your general sentiment about overly confident advisers, but the tone of your post does sound kinda defeatist, even if you say it isn't.

Good, because you are one of them. This thread is for you, how do you like it?

I don't know how in the world I could sound "defeatist" by refusing to be judged by the twisted standards of those who think the cure for a very complex mental disorder to be some bumper sticker wisdom delivered with a patronizing attitude.

In my experience, it seems to be the other way around. Some people feel more comforted that their feelings might be out of their control and thus they have justification for not doing anything about it.

But you see, that's only you. Even if you are lazy and too coward to face your problems, you shouldn't tell people suffering from a very real mental health problem their symptoms are just they indulging themselves in reprehensible behavior like you.

 

[bsammy]

This is a good thread. I really like the idea of challenging those who think they have it all figured out. Good for you for bringing this topic up. There are a lot of interesting responses to your post.

yes, it was interesting as i was talking to a guy on another forum and he was giving me all this advice, what i was doing wrong etc etc..then i got a rundown on how his life is and im doing beter than him..he can barely work part time and has zero real life friends yet he has all this supposed great advice...wtf..

has anyone ever been cured of social phobia or avoidant pd?id love a 'success story' thread where people have made a lot of progress and are almost over their disordeer or very comfortable living within it..ive scoured the internet and dont see any success stories, i simply see people struggling with it..ugghh

 

[Odo]

And also, I don’t think it’s helpful to sterilise and sanitise a forum too much, as that’s not how the world really is.

So why shouldn't Luoco be allowed to have his thread too?
I'm pretty sure that we can all handle it.

Maybe he could have been a little less antagonistic about it, but I think it's worth discussing.

There are some people who seriously think that if you don't take their advice or adopt their perspective as your own, it's because you are a loser. They will insinuate as much and tell you it's because you're refusing to help yourself, but in reality they're upset because you're refusing to do what they want you to do.

This is just an online forum where people can just tell everyone they have/had SA and then we're all supposed to believe them. Sometimes you will get secondhand good advice, but a lot of the time it's just people making shit up because they like the sound of it or because they trust their intuition more than they probably should.

 

[Odo]

yes, it was interesting as i was talking to a guy on another forum and he was giving me all this advice, what i was doing wrong etc etc..then i got a rundown on how his life is and im doing beter than him..he can barely work part time and has zero real life friends yet he has all this supposed great advice...wtf..

has anyone ever been cured of social phobia or avoidant pd?id love a 'success story' thread where people have made a lot of progress and are almost over their disordeer or very comfortable living within it..ive scoured the internet and dont see any success stories, i simply see people struggling with it..ugghh

And then there's the question of whether or not they actually had anxiety or are just making a big deal out of a temporary loss of confidence that everyone faces from time to time. Or it could be that they are angry at the world for not accepting them and would rather imagine they have a psychological condition than stop being a ****.

 

[S_Spartan]

I think the what the OP is referring to are what I have termed as "opposite trolls".

These are people who deliberately take the opposite position of an individual or individuals on a forum and basically proclaim themselves as gods. They don't just do it now and again, many of them doing it daily. They get off on it.

Their advice usually amounts to "you are doing it wrong", "you are going to die if you do it that way", "here is the answer to your problems(then comes the same tired advice you've heard a million times)", and "I never had that problem so it must be your fault you have that problem".

The internet is full of these people. It always has been and always will be. And it's not just here, you can find opposite trolls on just about every forum. Many of them have huge post counts and have been on there for years.

My point is that there are people who give good, humble advice and then there are advice trolls and learning to tell the difference will lets you know who to listen to and who is just trying to get their daily ego chubb from taking your time.

 

[vj288]

.............

 

[squidgee]

Yeah, let's ignore what the people suffering with the disorder themselves say, and also the results of decades of research to understand and treat the disorder. When we think it is a disease it makes it look ugly.

If it's not a disease, I wonder why anyone would seek treatment. I mean, there's a treatment out there making it possible for people with social phobia to get better and live normal lives without the symptons with as high as 90% of success, when most people trying by themselves usually can't go anywhere or just live an apparent normal life with the anxiety still torturing them every day, but it's obviously overkill and unnecessary.



What to answer to this terrifying level of ignorance? I mean, this person never read a single post of the people struggling with the disorder here? Never read a single thing about it on the internet?

And you are inviting me to look at what it is? When you don't have the slightest idea?



No, it would be more constructive if people with social phobia were able to make their effort for getting cured, with what we have plenty of evidence as being a very good treatment, without people who don't know anything of what they are talking about trying to make them feel guilty for not doing what they have already tried their whole lives but couldn't.



Good, because you are one of them. This thread is for you, how do you like it?

I don't know how in the world I could sound "defeatist" by refusing to be judged by the twisted standards of those who think the cure for a very complex mental disorder to be some bumper sticker wisdom delivered with a patronizing attitude.




But you see, that's only you. Even if you are lazy and too coward to face your problems, you shouldn't tell people suffering from a very real mental health problem their symptoms are just they indulging themselves in reprehensible behavior like you.

You call me patronizing and ignorant, but you're the one calling me lazy, cowardly and making snap judgements and assumptions about me because apparently if I hold a contrary viewpoint to yours, than I must not have "real" socialphobia. If that's not condescension at its finest, then I don't know what is. I think I would know whether or not I am one of these "overly confident advisers" or not. Given the content and history of my previous posts, I wouldn't say I was a very confident person. I'm still facing problems with social anxiety (and yes I was diagnosed, though that doesn't really mean much since its very easy to be diagnosed by a medical professional without actually having the condition), and taking sertraline has helped.

I think I probably could've phrased my rant about social anxiety and disease a little better though. In retrospect, it does sound harsh and is a vast simplification of a complex condition, but to make where I stand clear, I'll just dot point my views below:

• I do not advocate the advice that "you're perfect as you are" or any other unrealistically positive thinking in the same vein. That's something I think we can both happily agree on.

• I do not believe all people with social phobia still have their condition because they're "lazy" or "not putting in enough effort". I know it's difficult, it took me more than 4 years just to build up the courage to go to a doctor. However from reading numerous responses from all over the internet, there are some individuals (thankfully a minority) who seem to use mental illness as a crutch. By the way, I'm not implying you or anyone posting on this thread.

• While I acknowledge that there is evidence to suggest a large biological and genetic basis to mental illness, and that it is something that can be treated with medication and therapy, I'm reluctant to classify it as a disease in the strictest sense. I say this because the science around psychology and brain function isn't particularly clear and a lot is still unknown. I mean, we don't even have definitive proof of how SSRIs work. Even attempts to quantify psychological phenomenon (eg: happiness level on a scale of 1-10) are flawed and prone to subjectivity. Not to mention that many studies contradict one another, or elicit varying levels of efficacy with regards to treatment options.

I think this will be the last post I make in this thread, since I don't want to get further involved in any arguments.

 

[Megaten]

Well this has certainly been an enlightening experience. I wish there was a simple answer for all of it.