Nick's Daily Question:Art or Not Art???

black-wings

Well-known member
Some of you know me very well and you probably already know that something I'm very picky about is music. I was talking to a friend of mine that I've fallen away from hip-hop because its lost its artistic value. Don't believe me? Ok, think about this, a very interesting short story you should read is James Baldwin's 'Sonny's Blues.' The story deals with "serious art" versus just 'art.' In the story we learn that art is truth. Music is a form of art right? Well, then, what is truth in art? Truth in art is simply the life we live. We learn that its not enough to just make music but make music that not only represents your life but the life of everyone around you. art reminds us that in this life filled with struggles, pains and everything in between, we are not alone and that the artist is struggling as well.



In hip hop, unfortunately (f.y.i. NOT ALL HIP HOP IS LIKE THIS. YOU DO HAVE GOOD HIP HOP OUT THERE) it seems MOST rappers talk about money, cars, hos etc. While some enjoy this, Im failing to see how the jewlery you're wearing and the bitches you got in your backseat is making me feel any better about myself. More importantly its not reminding me that I'm not alone. Again, there are some good rappers out there but nowadays its seems they are only a handful.

What do you guys think? Has Hip Hop in the last decade gotten better or worse?
 

da_illest101

Well-known member
gotten a lot worse. I seriously pay more attention to the instrumentals then the lyrics nowadays. I would still consider it art but a none evolving art. Pretty much every one copy each other. If you listen to the lyrics any top rapper's ( ok almost all) they are all saying the same stuff but with different words. I have short patience with the new rappers and i think young jeezy or rick ross is the last rapper I liked.

Kanye and lupe are a breath of fresh air but only 2 rappers are not enough to make a huge difference. I always find it's always the same rappers that makes good music but their content is always the same.

That's why i opened the door to other genre of music, I was kinda tired of hearing about money cash, cars and *****
 

Dave02

New member
I think you're right black-wings that a lot of mainstream hip-hop has very little lyrical value, but I don't agree with the definition of art as truth. If someone painted a really original painting suggesting that money is the only thing worth striving for, I think we would still call this art. Also you could argue that any true statement is art - I had fish for lunch - this would be way too wide. Defining art is really hard - the best i've come up with is that art is any act of self-expression, and what would typically be considered "good art" would be an act of self-expression with a level or originality or aesthetic value.

I know this is a very wide definition of art but I don't think this is a problem as what is considered art ranges greatly so it needs to be wide.

So in considering generic hip-hop lyrics, I would consider them art if the artist is intending to express themselves, but would consider it unoriginal and "bad" art.

Thoughts?
 

Hastings & Main

Well-known member
It's art.
Same way as Hallmark cards are art, but it's still art.
Hip-hop took a major downturn in the mid-90's, but there's still good stuff out there, just takes longer to find it.
 

Liam17

Well-known member
In the 80s it wasn't bad.

Now its just terrible. It all sounds the same, they rap about pointless stuff. The thing about it now also is, its about popularity. Hip hop, pop, rap all this stuff in the charts is about appearance and popularity. No talent anymore

There is talented hip hop artists, rock bands, etc. etc. But they'll never get recognised if they don't have the 'look'.

Which is a shame.
 

black-wings

Well-known member
In the 80s it wasn't bad.

Now its just terrible. It all sounds the same, they rap about pointless stuff. The thing about it now also is, its about popularity. Hip hop, pop, rap all this stuff in the charts is about appearance and popularity. No talent anymore

There is talented hip hop artists, rock bands, etc. etc. But they'll never get recognised if they don't have the 'look'.

Which is a shame.

Which is why i question its legitamacy as art. Although everyone's opinion as art is different, most artist have a universal issue or topic most can relate in their work. Not everyone can relate to have nice cars or have bitches in the back seat. But anywho, just my ever so humble opinion.
 
I wouldn't consider most top 40 music "art". It's a product, not a masterpiece. If you listen to most new popular songs they steal melodies from older songs and, like everyone else said, it's always about the same 3 things: money, sex and how awesome they are. Art is supposed to bring up feelings in you. Most hip-hop and top 40 music just brings up my lunch :p
 
art is truth

Not really: art has been always the search for beauty through differents materials and tecnologies, but not necessarily this beauty must be synonym of truth. Anyway, hip hop degrades black people image by making them look like vulgar common criminals instead normal people. Ironically, hip hop contributes to increase black hating despite its initial antidiscrimination purpose, whereas gospel and blues, apart from being less noisy, sound pleasant and gentle.

YouTube - Elmore James The Sky Is Crying
 
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black-wings

Well-known member
Anyway, hip hop degrades black people image by making them look like vulgar common criminals instead normal people. Ironically, hip hop contributes to increase black hating

i gotta respectfully disagree there my friend. NOT ALL hip hop is like that. For example listen to what this guy Lupe Fiasco says on the matter. Go look up his video "Dumb it Down. REALLY listen to his message in this song. And you'll see what I mean.
 
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Pacific_Loner

Pirate from the North Pole
I agree with everyone who says it is difficult to define what is art: If I was a graphist working for a commercial company, wouldn't I say that I have an artistic job? Or if I do industrial design? Maybe we could say that there is different levels in art. What Hip Hop has become might be a more commercial kind of art. As lots of other music style. I don't listen hip hop but I'm sure there is still good hip hop out there if you look for it, which would be a higher quality kind of art. Also, our perception of art may vary a lot in time. What we think sucks right now, we could have thought this is genius 200 years ago or 200 years later. Sorry for the bad english, my brain is on spare energy mode.
 

los77

Well-known member
There still many great hip hop artist out there, you just wont find them on the radio or or television (with some exceptions). I'll throw in a few names: Cambio, Immortal Technique, Sage Francis, Atmosphere... There's plenty more too, I find the best way to find other good rappers is to find a couple of songs from people featured in their album or looking at other rappers in their record label, mostly if its independent.

This thing is not just going on with hip hop though, its happening with all genres. When they play rock or reggae you hear crap like Panic at the Disco or Sean Paul. Its a shame what commercialism has done to music.
 

StrandedTangle

Well-known member
I have ALWAYS thought all Rap is crap. But then I am 50. It's not singing at all; it is just talking often filthy rhymes.
Sometimes though, I don't mind a bit of rap in the middle of an actual song.
Guess I'm showing my age.
 

ありがとう

Well-known member
I agree with everyone who says it is difficult to define what is art: If I was a graphist working for a commercial company, wouldn't I say that I have an artistic job? Or if I do industrial design? Maybe we could say that there is different levels in art. What Hip Hop has become might be a more commercial kind of art. As lots of other music style. I don't listen hip hop but I'm sure there is still good hip hop out there if you look for it, which would be a higher quality kind of art. Also, our perception of art may vary a lot in time. What we think sucks right now, we could have thought this is genius 200 years ago or 200 years later. Sorry for the bad english, my brain is on spare energy mode.
You're thinking along the lines of what I'm thinking. Well we had a similar debate awhile back and at the end you can't really define what art is nowadays. People have different values some people think it's art, some people don't. Mainstreams, media, mass art, all that shizzles are considered art or well a 'new form of art' (a different kind of art)... However I think real art is what can he held throughout human history, yet still hold the same quality (in other words it's not only popular to that limited set of time, but popular throughout history; so it transcends time). Some examples... err (I'm not much of a music geek, but here goes)....
A lot of the Queen songs people still listen to, other artists even make covers for it. However majority of the xFactor/Pop Idol etc winners you tend to forget (don't you notice that most of the artists and songs are forgotton?) Crappy examples, but I can't think in terms of musics xD
 

Mokkat

Well-known member
Hiphop has lost it's charm. Even worse, the young people are being spoonfed **** like Lil Wayne or Soulja Boy.

Im not into hiphop in general, but Kanye is a great producer, and an ok rapper, who has redeemed himself from the autotune-mess he made before, with his newest record IMO. I also really like Lupe Fiasco, Kid Cudi and the rest who make rap to make music, and try not to let attitudes, clothing, wealth, etc get into the equation

Also, at a festival, I saw a Die Antword concert. It was weird as hell, and incredibly entertaining with awesome flow
 

black-wings

Well-known member
Good answers everyone! I guess the reason i said its losing its artistic value is because of lyrics and content. I just find it hard to believe that a song like Lil Wayne's "Lollipop" LYRICALLY and CONTENT WISE can be more artisitic than Jay Z's "Forever Young" or Eminem's "Cleaning Out My Closet" (Both REALLY good songs btw if you haven't heard them). But like everyone says, its how you look at artwork I guess. Me personally, I like to learn something when I listen to a song and not here the same b.s. that everyone else is singing or rapping about.
 

ripewithdecay

Well-known member
Does anyone else think Kanye is overrated? His last album just felt too forced, if you know what i mean. However, I absolutely love The Roots, and to me that is hip hop, but everyone has certain tastes too.
I was introduced to a fairly new rapper named Freddie Gibbs a while back. You should definitely check him out. He's been compared to 2 pac in the way he raps and the stuff he talks about.
 

black-wings

Well-known member
Does anyone else think Kanye is overrated? His last album just felt too forced, if you know what i mean. However, I absolutely love The Roots, and to me that is hip hop, but everyone has certain tastes too.
I was introduced to a fairly new rapper named Freddie Gibbs a while back. You should definitely check him out. He's been compared to 2 pac in the way he raps and the stuff he talks about.

You know, you all might not like this but he actually isnt! lol (I can hear you guys booing me lol) However, I do think Kanye is arrogant and he hypes himself up to a level that I dont think he deserves to be in.
 

los77

Well-known member
I do think Kanye is way overrated, compared to some of the underground artist he really isint that good. I only found his ealier stuff to be decent.
 
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