Love-Shyness

[Artanis]

continued...

I've resorted to doing nothing quite a lot - to do nothing substantial in my life but escape from life itself through escapism. I think this is because if I make a decision then I have to live with the resulting consequences. I'm not as motivated (or unmotivated) by rewards and punishments as I am for the consequences of my actions. I recognize that I am a potential danger to myself and others and so I escape from life experience and from personal responsibility by making as few choices in life as possible. I'm more comfortable to just go with the flow and make the best out of a bad situation than I am to take control of my own life and take charge of my own destiny. Having said that I wouldn't know what to do with my life even if I had the motivation to drastically change it… Again I'm stuck and indifferent and ambivalent and unable to change who I am, only able to accept my bad situation and live with that. Watching Neon Genesis Evangelion until late last night where the main character has some similar issues to myself has brought some of these issues to my awareness. At least on occasion a form of escapism can bring illumination on one's own problems...

I don't know if I'm making a lot of sense but I'm overtired right now and I don't know what to do. Again I'm finding myself wishing there was someone to take my hand and pull me up out of this depressive quagmire but there is just no one and there never really has been. And now I feel selfish because I'm only thinking of myself and wanting others to take action when I won't do so myself... and so I condemn myself to the loneliness again. I don't know what to do.

I have not been looking for people to say good things about me (most people who know me regard me as hard working, ethical, polite, etc). I am indifferent to how much people around me show their approval of me so long as I am not negatively evaluated (I am hypersensitive to negative evaluation, NOT addicted to positive evaluation).

I am sceptical because while I am a very serious person. I don’t really cling to people… once upon a time I would become infatuated with whoever I had a crush on, but this was always kept at a distance rather than involving any sort of possessive behaviour.

I have always been a reliable student and have always paid attention to my studies and work responsibilities. I have never neglected them… I have however neglected my social life by using my free time to resort to escapism since I have no (or rarely have) friends to turn to and spend time with instead. I have also never been able to approach a girl like this. Rejections of me have almost always come before taking such a risk.

I’m thinking that my own ‘negative feedback loop’ as it is today and has been for the last few years is: condemning my own lack of friends, lack of girlfriend, lack of social skills; then becoming depressed, leading to avoiding these issues with escapism, because I can’t summon courage/motivation to change I'm still not being able to have friends, girlfriend or improve social skills, so I condemn myself again … and so I justify my own depressed state on the fact that I can’t rise above it… <loop>
There may be more to it than that but this ‘negative feedback loop’ is something that comes to mind and is something that I’ve been half aware of for several years now.

This sort of scenario which you give as a ‘positive feedback loop’ is my normal everyday process. I do not make excuses to avoid my everyday responsibilities in order to use escapism. This sort of behaviour may be more relevant to my asshole brother who refuses to contribute or help with anything and is always self-absorbed and neglectful. So I think that your example does not appear relevant in my case. I’m really not that independent in my decision making. I realize that compromise and a ‘just do it’ approach to my responsibilities is far easier than fighting to avoid my responsibilities, especially sensible responsibilities imposed by others… one thing that I’m afraid of is that when I live alone I don’t have all of these rules imposed on me and so I neglect to wash the dishes and so on sometimes in those situations, but always have everything clean and tidy before my family comes home again if they have been on holiday or something like that…

I’ve been like this for at least a decade. I do complete the tasks that I am required to do. I am even praised for my hard work and efficiency. However this “operating procedure” cannot be applied to something as individual as ones social and/or romantic life. I am not required to have friends or a girlfriend or anything of the sort, so I have the choice to ignore such things if it is convenient. Therein lies the problem as I see it. My choice of friends and romantic interest is entirely my own decision and therefore I am not required to have either.

[edit] just continuing a little bit from the above pargraph... If I were to try and apply a positive feedback loop to my own lack of friends and lack of girlfriend, I could also risk making some bad decisions and/or not behaving appropriately while following the process of the loop without first figuring out what sort of behaviour is appropriate, increasing my confidence enough (how I would do this is I don't know), changing my personality and style to fit the situation, etc... and there is of course the harsh consequences of rejection and all of that stuff to consider as well and that I think is too much stuff to worry about if I were to try and simply follow a positive feedback loop in such a situation (ie a pub or club or whatever). Using a positive feedback loop such as do it/confront/finish it > more confident > thing > do it > more confident in such a situation is very tricky and I'm certain you can see how this sort of approach this situation is not a good one to take...

Re: hiring a call-girl:
That reminds me (your note about money), I refuse to use money in and of itself to get a companion. While I am not morally opposed to prostitution, it is not something I can ever bring myself to take part in. If I have to resort to paying for a girl (or worse, buying a “real doll” as some love-shy men have resorted to) then I don’t consider myself deserving of anything but utter contempt. If I have to pay for a girl then there’s no escaping the fact that I’m a genuine failure as a human being in my own eyes… besides, my anxiety has often prevented me from entering an ‘adult store’ or brothel or anything like that…

I’m 24 years old (at the time this was written - currently I am 25). I’ve had over a decade to improve my social skills, gain good friends and experience life as a teenager/young adult. I’ve failed to do so. Every day is a day wasted when I could be living life to the fullest, or at the very least living it instead of avoiding it. I don’t want to be mature and serious and responsible. I want to have some fun. I want to have a functioning personality and sense of humour. I want to be able to have good friends and a girlfriend who isn’t in her late twenties or older. I want to have enthusiasm for life and motivation to travel and see the world. I’m sick of having so much regret and shame and self loathing and ****ing loneliness and cowardice. I want to be able to show myself off as an attractive, desirable young man before it’s too late and I’m never going to be able to do that. I can’t help but see myself as “damaged goods” not worth the effort when it comes to intimacy and interpersonal relationships. I want to be able to change. And now I feel the need to apologize for ranting angrily at my own pathetic uselessness.

I’ve never taken meds for my problems and every therapist I’ve seen says that I don’t need medication. Having said that, the various therapists I’ve seen haven’t been able to help me much so far…

I know no other way of existing and it is easier to trap myself in a manageable depressed state with the distractions of escapism than it is to do something totally out of character (especially with an avoidant personality disorder) in terms of how I approach life and society. And I know that there are plenty of reasons that I can justify to myself on why I should be punished and remain this way. I don’t enjoy this state, but at least I’m no longer consumed by suicidal thoughts anymore. Being this way is indeed more comfortable than it is to truly face rejection and my own inadequacies and be in a constant state of anxiety, stress, frustration and misery. Perhaps this is caused by a victim mentality, I’m not sure yet

I think that my trust mechanisms have indeed been damaged. And while I’m not consciously seeking rejection, it is not unknown for me to go through a process of self-sabotage. In retrospect even my behaviour while infatuated with both Kendall and Jessica (and possibly the others too, I can’t remember) I was able to manipulate the situation on some level so that I would be rejected by them simply for the infatuations themselves. One reason why my infatuation with Kendall ended quickly was that on some level I made it easy for her to reject me so that my crush for her would go away and I would be back to “normal” (normal meaning alone and depressed rather than being in a state of uncontrollable and uncomfortable infatuation)… Self-sabotage is something that I’ve been aware of on some level for a few years as well. I don’t know if I have the willpower to overcome this process of unconscious self-sabotage.

I don't know why exactly right now I'm losing grip on my self control but my frustration and depression are getting the better of me right now even as I type this. I don't know what the purpose or end result of this post is right now besides typing up my crazy ranting. please forgive me this. I think it may have to do with my typical escapism method of watching a TV show this afternoon that dealt (unexpectedly) with depression and loneliness and the importance of close relationships - especially friendships - which has gotten to me. This has happened on occasion before, but I can't remember the last time it was this bad... years ago when Buffy the Vampire Slayer was still on Australian TV the occasional episode would force me to reflect on my own relationship issues even as I use such a distraction to avoid dealing with these sorts of things. That didn't make me like the show any less but it did force me to confront my own issues without the possibility of escaping elsewhere. The point is that I'm in tears and there's no one here and I'm alone on another Friday night like just about every Friday night for the last decade and I feel like I'm unable to do anything about it because I can't help but avoid my own life. Maybe I'm just exhausted and I haven't interacted with other people besides my family over the last few days which is getting to me... I feel like crap. It doesn't make me feel better knowing that I'm going to a convention in the city tomorrow (which I've been looking forward to for weeks) or working at the football tomorrow and on Sunday (all of which will be fun and helpful) because right now I find myself unable to escape from this depression and all of those frustrations.

I'm not one to experiment with drugs or alcohol, but is there another way (besides escapism) of coping with a depressive situation for the immediate future?

that approach ("yes feel sad that you are not in a relationship but accept it") is exactly the problem. I have accepted so much that I've trapped myself in a situation where I can't even try to initiate a close relationship of any sort. As a safety mechanism to make rejections impossible I don't get into uncertain situations in the first place. By accepting my situation as it is I've learned to live with it through distractions and without confronting the problems themselves. I've closed off my access to those behaviours and there is no one I can possibly blame for that besides myself, but If I distract myself then I don't have the energy to blame myself, but that too is avoiding the problem which I no longer have any idea how to fix... Don't take this as lashing out or angry or anything of the sort please, it's not. This is just an extremely complicated situation and it helps if a little to explain it clearly and accurately.

I wish I still had some close friends, particularly female friends like when I was at University... at least back then it looked promising that other people could help me with my problems... even something non-stressful or silly like a small group blind date would have been okay back then...

Re: Speed dating:
I've been trying (but not succeeding) to find the courage to do something like this for the last few months since I signed up for an e-mail newsletter about speed dating in Melbourne... I'm really not sure about this approach, it's somewhat anxiety provoking (a lot more than they typical anxiety before going to a pub alone) and expensive...

I had counselling sessions in High School; later I had therapy sessions with a specialist in adolescent depression who diagnosed me with Social Anxiety Disorder and Avoidant Personality Disorder... soon afterwards when doing my own research I diagnosed myself with Love Shyness (a variant of Avoidant Personality Disorder) after very carefully examining all of the relevant details of SAD, AvPD, and LS and my own issues. My most recent therapist has not disagreed with my Love Shyness self-diagnosis after much discussion on the issue. I've researched the main book on Love Shyness as well as a critical review of the book by another critical reviewer several years ago. Sadly the written material is fairly limited in this area (AvPD and LS) from what I can tell...

I've recently been reading about the Japanese term 'Moé' which has some implications on describing and exploring exactly the way in which my old infatuations developed. 'Moé' essentially means to find something or someone extremely cute in a non-sexual way and to develop a strong emotional attachment at a distance from the subject, without it necessarily involving any sexual desire. Some characters and even some people are developed or marketed in such a way as to encourage fans to almost fall in love with especially cute characters or people. All five of the girls I became infatuated with, along with several fictional characters over the last 10-13 years, have been emotional attachments of more or less this sort... my first professional therapist described my infatuations as 'like high school crushes' and described me as a late bloomer, which I found quite strange since I hit puberty and became attracted to girls much earlier than most of my peers did... regardless, even if I didn't have any real sexual desire towards these girls, I still used them in an inappropriate way by becoming emotionally attached to my perception of them as characters with an aesthetically pleasing 'cuteness' rather than as real human beings. I remember the after-effects of most infatuations where my idealized and fabricated perceptions of these girls had been shattered and the real thing was often far less attractive than the fiction I had created in my mind, especially since they all regarded me quite poorly afterwards. All of my infatuations were at a distance away from me, my anxieties about girls, relationships, dating, etc. made it convenient to keep these infatuations and perhaps unrealistic perceptions of these girls intact for a while since I often couldn't make the effort to get to know them very well as people at the time; interaction, if any, was kept at a distance mostly through e-mail or maybe some telephone communication. As I say that though, my interactions with both Piri and Kendall (second last and last infatuations) started off as friendships (Piri and I both played Badminton and we had several subjects together; and Kendall and I became good friends at Uni long before I became infatuated with her), and these two infatuations were the easiest to break (though we never resumed being friends). I don't know if that is due to either growing experience and awareness of the problems of infatuations, or if it was due to the changes between the prior relationship and the infatuated distanced relationship on my part, or a combination of the two...

 

[Artanis]

continued...

One of my greatest fears is that I will become infatuated with another girl that I care about and thereby act inappropriately or embarrass/humiliate myself or do whatever it is exactly that makes me feel completely ashamed of myself afterwards. This fear has caused me to shut down my emotions, damage my personality and sabotage my own desires when it comes to intimacy and close meaningful relationships with others. It is this sort of stuff that differentiates Avoidant Personality Disorder by itself with Love Shyness... I'm not sure what to do exactly to fix this problem, but at least I've found some new and potentially useful information about it... before today I didn't really realize that there may be such a strong connection between my infatuations of those five girls and the sort of semi-addictive appreciation for especially cute characters in fiction or especially cute celebrities that I would never meet...

Sabotaging relationships like that is extremely relevant to my case. ‘Paralysing’ is a good way of putting it…

Re: Hiring a prostitute:
This makes me cringe… my anxiety goes into overload when in that sort of situation… one has to be over 18 to enter an adult venue. It took me six years after that time in order to summon the courage to enter an adult store (some 3 months ago I’m 24 years old now) for the first time, and this was a shop (dvds, mags and toys only), not a brothel and I didn’t touch anything and it was after midnight… frankly I don’t want to go back… everything I need in terms of entertainment I can get freely off the internet in the privacy of my own home… I wouldn’t know how to act around a prostitute and the thought of having to pay for a girl would make me even more ashamed of myself.

Regarding various posts about Alcohol and getting drunk:
I don’t like alcohol much… most beers upset my stomach (yeast allergy?) and alcohol generally only makes me dizzy and doesn’t lower my inhibitions. Even after around 10-15 standard drinks in the space of around 3-4 hours I tried last year (year before last now) at the Football grand final after-party… I only became dizzy, my inhibitions didn’t go down and I didn’t manage to speak to any girls at the party that I didn’t know… even when I had trouble walking in a straight line my inhibitions had not decreased at all. I was still in absolute control of my actions all the way home. I was scared that I would lose control again…
I generally only drink alcohol on special occasions or if friends are also drinking – and that of course is rare since I have no close friends in Melbourne anymore.

I remember two occasions when my inhibitions did decrease… once was at a Christmas dinner with my family – a safe environment and everyone was telling jokes – I managed to tell a good joke which I think was partially due to the effects of the alcohol (even only a little, which I think makes it more due to the company around me than to the alcohol itself. The only other time was on holidays one time when I went to a spa/Jacuzzi which was part of a small swimming pool (probably when I was in year 11 or 12 or so, many years ago)… Incredibly I lost my inhibitions, made a friend very quickly and had this friend in hysterical laughter at my jokes within the space of about half an hours or less. I’ve read about group Jacuzzi experiences being used as therapy for Love Shyness, but I’ve never been to one since that day… and now I’m self conscious about my body and I don’t even go swimming at the beach anymore… I once looked into how much a portable Jacuzzi would cost and it was far above what I can afford even today…

Re: finding old friends and peers on Facebook:
I was far from popular in High School, but I'll see how useful this is. One thing of concern is that three of the five girls I was once infatuated with are on facebook would be described as friends of friends... I'm not sure if I should get in touch with any of them or simply ignore them unless they contact me... on occasion I've wondered what it would be like to face the girls that I've once been infatuated with and apologizing and explaining my odd behaviour to them. Would their forgiveness help me? - I don't know... Would it allow me to forgive myself if they forgave me? - I don't know...

I've been a bit frustrated over the last 2 days because there's this nice girl at work, Alyse, who is pretty cool and a history student herself and so we've had a fair bit to talk about... it's been quite a while since I've talked much with any girl with such a decent personality and she's not bad looking either... she has a boyfriend and she smokes, but otherwise she's a really great person... It's made me more aware of my own inadequacies and behavioural and emotional limitations... I would never take this frustration out on anyone, but it is there nonetheless... the serious lack of any contact with pretty girls my own age over the last few years is affecting my ability to concentrate on my work...(I haven't been caught out yet, but the feelings and frustrations are persistent)... maybe I'm just frustrated that there's nowhere for this energy to go since I'm completely unable to do things like flirt and be affectionate and so on... and also most of my other work colleagues are married to each other... my boss and his wife work together and there's this Canadian guy and his fiancé are also working in this place... It's a situation which is making me frustrated about my own life and my own problems about relationships and intimacy and all that...
(note, haven’t seen Alyse since those early days setting up shop, she left as the store opened for business)

The cute girl at the bank teller desk was for the briefest of moments chatting me up today as she processed the cheque I was depositing (not a metaphor)... today was my day off from work and she was asking me what my plans were for the afternoon, encouraging me to do something fun... the thought of asking her out whenever was briefly on my mind, but was gone again just as quickly and I simply left as there was a queue behind me waiting... while I see no productive purpose to beating myself up about not being assertive or taking any initiative, I do feel a variety of unhelpful emotions right now...

I had the perfect opportunity this morning on the tram on the way to work... my phone rang and I was looking for a pen in my bag to write stuff down and the attractive girl sitting next to me lent me a pen... as I politely returned it I found myself completely incapable of doing anything besides politely thanking her and saying nothing more... there wasn't really any anxiety to speak of... I hadn't even noticed she had been sitting beside me (I was to engrossed in my book to notice her sit down next to me)... so I had the perfect opportunity... my hair was good, I was wearing a neat shirt... had I started a conversation with her I might have even been able to talk my way into buying her a hot drink or something as a 'thank you'... I simply found myself completely incapable of engaging in that sort of behaviour. As I sit here thinking about what happened I don't really know what to conclude yet... Perhaps my confidence in this area (any behaviours resembling dating and flirting and getting to know new people and so on) is really at absolute zero and cannot be increased again by my own efforts alone.

Having said that, the rest of my life is rather enjoyable... I love my job, the people I work with are wonderful; I'm engaging in several very entertaining forms of escapism, I'm eating better than I usually do, I'm getting a bit more exercise than I usually do... it's just this one area that I simply cannot function in anymore (if I ever have been able to in the first place) despite my own attempts to try to motivate myself into improving my situation... it feels like there are countless layers involved in simply attempting to deal with the situation, where each level needs to be completed before starting on the next in order to do basic things to get better...

I know that I do need to get better... but first I have to truly want to get better, and be willing to get better, and to have the confidence to actually try and get better, which requires wanting to get more confidence, etc.; then to actually go through the process of attempting to get better, then staying the course and not giving up on all of the above; have to make new friends that I can socialise with; have to make the time to do all of this (which requires at least a temporary sacrifice of my time-consuming addiction to escapism which may make me easily depressed - hence need to resist the temptation of giving up), and then I need to change how I see myself (have to somehow use a form of circular reasoning to change my self-image from indifference or self-loathing or altruistic redeeming or whatever to something more positive - I don't know what yet...) and then need to translate that change in self image to how I present myself in terms of behaviour and clothing, and I need to be able to do this in a way that keeps me honest to myself, I won't pretend to be something that I'm not... and I will need to get over my guilt over what I have done to people that I have been attracted to in the past (re: infatuations), I'm not sure how to do that...... After all of that hopefully I will have the self-acceptance and self-confidence and desire to improve further and then try to explore dating and relationships with women my own age and so on and so forth... but looking at all of this stuff that needs to be done to change myself, I can't say that I want to change that much, or that I'm willing to change that much... looking at all that needs to be done I'm very tempted to simply give up now and remain indifferent to my behavioural limitations... chances are that by the time I actually get through all of the above, it will be too late anyway (I will be too old and possibly too dead to have a girlfriend at the rate I'm going these days).

I'm not consumed with hopelessness with this situation though... I'm in a mood of simple indifference and simply do not care as much as I know I should. Maybe I already realise that this process of improvement is unrealistic and have given up already, despite thoroughly thinking about and evaluating how I can potentially improve my situation...

I am not depressed about this conclusion... on some level I think I've known that this is my situation for a while now and have accepted it for what it is. Chances are that the extremely thorough efforts that I have made to prohibit myself from any chance of becoming infatuated again have deliberately made my situation an impossible one to rectify... that is, all of those barriers in my way in the direction of being in a healthy intimate relationship with another human being have been put there deliberately as a way to make another infatuation completely impossible. How completely ****ed-up is that...?

Well at least I'm not miserable... one has to have some optimism after all...

[EDIT]
Waitaminute... I have identified a new factor which I have not considered before: knowing that Self-Acceptance is a required step in the process of getting better, I have taken the easy but counterproductive step of achieving self-acceptance too early. I have achieved self-acceptance in my current situation which means accepting my current mental state and current limitations. This much too early accomplishment of self-acceptance has sabotaged my own willpower needed to change my situation for the better. How could I have missed that...??? I have sabotaged myself yet again. I probably have to try and delay my self-acceptance until I have changed enough to improve further. I will think on this some more and see where avoiding self-acceptance gets me. I have not considered this path before so I am unaware of the potential risks involved... I will not accept myself for who I am... that does sound like a potentially dangerous method of thinking though... does anyone have any advice to give me?

I finished my honours year at the beginning of last year. I thought it was much better than Swinburne though... I was so lonely when I was at Swinburne that I fell into a horrible depression which was made all the worse because waiting at the train station at Swinburne everyday inevitably lead to suicidal thoughts... I felt much happier when I was at La Trobe, but after my best friend left for overseas I was completely isolated again... and pretty much have been ever since...

[EDIT/UPDATE]
While there is no development to speak of regarding the problems expressed in this thread (I have only myself to blame for that if anyone at all) I've recently been thinking of some of the other consequences to my inability to interact intimately with the fairer sex... I've noticed that my own tastes and the tastes of some other guys who have trouble getting a girlfriend are often more attracted towards the more aesthetically pleasing kind of girl rather than attracted to someone based on their type of personality. That is... I am more attracted to girls if they are cute rather than attracted based on a girls personality... probably because I've never really been exposed to many girls personalities on a deep level and are therefore not the best judge of character in that way.
I remember a while ago I was criticized for being too picky or having much too high expectations regarding women... I can't remember who said it and that doesn't matter anyway. Simply put - I know what I like and I like girls to be aesthetically pleasing, but since I've never even been asked out to or been on a date myself, I don't know yet if I would or should discriminate (that is, accept or reject an offer of a date) based on a girl's level of attractiveness.
I'm honestly unsure... Is it truly unfair to find some girls more aesthetically pleasing than others? It's not as though the girls I've been infatuated with in the past were models or anything... two of them, maybe three, I could describe as 'Kawaii' (Japanese term for a specific type of cuteness) - the other two were average looking but had other qualities I admired: One I admired her strength and determination in all areas of life... The other was a badminton partner for a while and we were almost friends before I got a crush on her... Also I find myself intimidated and have more anxiety regarding extremely attractive women anyway, so I know an unrealistic attraction or desire when I see it… I’m more attracted to the ‘cute but shy girl next door’ type I think… if that description means anything at all… Nodoka Miyazaki is a fair example of that type if anyone has read about the character…

So yeah, I'm not sure what to make of this... since I've never had a girlfriend I don't really know how to balance the 'Aestheticness vs Personality' importance when making decisions about relationships with women... I don't really know what sort of personality in a woman would be best for me to become close to or anything like that... how could I?

One thing that has bugged me is that often when I became infatuated with a girl, my perception of her would completely change. As a crush grew, I would see a girl as more physically attractive, more generous, warmer and kinder than she probably really was... and once the infatuation ceased my perception of that girl would completely change to finding her unattractive (or at least far less attractive than previously), cold, harsh, etc... It sometimes came as a shock to see how much my perception of a girl would change through the experience of getting a crush on her and then facing the harsh reality of rejection and knowing that those feelings won't ever be reciprocated... Of course I am entirely to blame and can never forgive myself for my own behaviour during this process... in these post-infatuation periods I shut down my personality and emotions in order to function and I become cold and miserable and utterly self-hating. What that tells me is that I really should not trust my own feelings on such matters and definitely shouldn't allow those sorts of feelings to grow for a girl unless she has some feelings for me first... that makes my situation more difficult though as I dare not make anything resembling a 'first move' like asking a girl out on a date... That probably sounds lazy to wait until a girl makes a move instead of taking the traditional male role of assertiveness to ask a girl out and eventually “win her heart”... but the rejection phobia and zero self-confidence and fear of another infatuation are truly crippling in this way... I feel stuck again and don't know if there is another solution to this same old problem which I'm sure everyone is getting tired of reading about by now... I know that I’m very tired of seeing no progress…

A few weeks ago I discussed some of my issues with another Love-Shy guy who is writing a book about how he has dealt with it. He suggested that I should attend strip clubs in order to reduce my anxiety, but I’m not at all comfortable with that… to me that sort of thing practically invites infatuations and encourages the objectifying of women… I’m terrified of what I could become if exposed to things like strip clubs or brothels…

 

[Artanis]

lastly...

One of my female work friends promised to help me get a girlfriend the other day at the AFL Grand Final After-Party... I've also got new furniture including a double bed (but needs bedclothes still) and a wonderful couch and a big flatscreen TV... and at the after party the other night I attempted (while tipsy) to chat up a pretty girl who was briefly sitting by herself... things aren't perfect for me yet but they are slowly but surely looking better over time... I may have found another therapy resource near where I live as well...

Sadly haven't got anywhere yet... I've been trying to pick up the damn phone to call my friend Amelia who said she might introduce me to her single friend but I just can't seem to pick the phone up... there's always some damn excuse to remain alone and not face those anxieties and depressive and difficult situations... I don't know what I'm doing... there's a sort of safety in just going through the motions of everyday life and there's no one in my everyday life at all who knows about my difficulties who could help me along...
Why can't I motivate myself to take a chance at success? - yes I'm ashamed at myself and often feel that I'm undeserving of companionship... self esteem issues too, I'm such a coward...

Admitting to my female friend from my casual job that I suffer from Love-Shyness has made me react all protective of myself and distancing myself from her so that I won't get hurt by any criticism or by the judgement of others... I hate it when this happens - where my own honesty and reaching out only to crawl back into my shell and hide and so on guarantees that I will lose friends who could eventually help me to success... so frustrating... makes me hate myself sometimes...

It could be worse than I thought... perhaps I have to be dragged "kicking and screaming" in a behavioural/emotional sense into the process of entering a romantic relationship that is at the end of the day for my own good... and like an immature child I've made it as difficult for someone else to help me as possible while still maintaining a relatively normal everyday life...

****! I am so damn sick of being out motivated and outsmarted by my own anxiety issues...

Re: a challenge set to me to go out and start conversations to challenge my anxiety:
My first reaction is that those suggestions are completely frelling insane, but my second reaction is to cringe and paralyse myself with anxiety. So I think you are on to something useful and important but I don't know what exactly and I can't help but think about scenarios and the enormous emotional damage that I could do to myself if it goes wrong or if I subvert my own feelings and behaviour (telling a pretty girl in passing how beautiful she is - literally made me react as though slapped in the face - slapped by a pretty girl no doubt... which says something about my immediate expectations and fears) ...I'll try... It will have to be taking very small steps but I'll try to do some of the stuff you suggested...

I managed to simplify some things recently regardless of the need to stop the self-analysis... but maybe I'm repeating myself slightly... essentially in order to escape from my anxieties I didn't try and work through them like any normal person because I didn't have those social skills needed to cope and work through those problems... Instead I channelled all of that shame and embarrassment and self-hate and everything else from the infatuations and rejections and anxieties to quite simply do as much damage to myself as possible - to use that self-harm to negate my anxieties by having no option but to completely avoid it (avoidant personality disorder). Because of the avoidance, I rarely experience that sort of anxiety anymore... but only so far as I can avoid and escape it.
The First problem is not overcoming anxiety but undoing the damage I did to myself and stop blaming myself for causing the situation in the first place and convince myself that I’m not undeserving of close meaningful relationships
The Second problem is needing to improve my life skills and do new activities that will stop me isolating myself completely
After that comes dealing with anxiety and self esteem and confidence and so on
... I'm pretty sure that's the case...

Yes I'm being analytical, but the alternative to that is to nothing at all... absolutely nothing whatsoever...

Privileges and good things in my life: my physical health – my slight over weight gut has reduced over the last 3 months with a 7 kg drop in my weight. I’ve never been badly injured physically. I have an apartment that I like which is fairly convenient for my needs. I have nice furniture, a nice television, and enough reading materials and audiovisual materials to last half a lifetime. I have approx 17 thousand AUD in the bank (which I rarely bother to spend besides the living necessities). I have a job which I love even though it doesn’t pay great. I’m no longer nearly suicidally depressed due to a host of anxiety and personality disorders. While I don’t have any close friends I get along quite well with the people I work with. I have a tertiary education - a Bachelor of Arts with Honours in History. I have my privacy. I get to see my mother usually once every week or fortnight since she lives less than a suburb away and grocery shopping together is sometimes convenient. I get to see my father every couple of months for dinner or something.

… compared to the lives of people around me, my life if probably fairly mundane, but I’m reasonably comfortable compared to 6 months ago even…

The damage I did to myself was unintentional. It was completely contrary to what I wanted yet I did it again and again until I shut down completely and once more several years later. How would you describe that sort of ambivalence between desire and behaviour if not to use the term ‘subvert’ ?

“walk away from the game” – to my mind it’s the other way around… I’ve been avoiding the game, not even been able to competently step up to the plate and swing the bat – let alone reach even ‘first base’ to use the baseball analogy… I can see you’re talking about a different game on a level of mental process, but I’ve never seen it as a game, rather an impossible situation that I have to either learn to cope with or watch my mental state collapse. I’ve been that way before… not pretty…

I did see a very attractive young lady this morning on the bus (brunette, straight hair down to her shoulders, quite slender, dark eyes, nice smile, fingernails painted black (but not goth) wearing tight trousers, high heels and a hoodie jacket) but she hopped off again a minute later, long before I could summon anywhere near the courage to say anything to her. I'm not sure if given the time I could have said anything to her anyway, but I tried to summon some courage... and yeah completely paralyzed was exactly how I felt...

I’ve been reflecting on the balance of positive and negative implications for thorough self-analysis of my issues and I’m actually less sure that not analyzing myself would be better… I’m certainly in a far better situation right now because I’ve been able to understand my problems… I’m no longer almost suicidally depressed because I have since reached an understanding of what exactly the problems are that I’m facing and have learned how to cope with them somewhat.

It’s not like I’m spending enormous amounts of time in self-analysis – It’s actually quite rare that a new piece of information comes along and makes the complicated puzzle that is my mental health show something new and important that was unknown until that point… and then all the information is there and I don’t need to waste time reflecting…and since uncertain anxiety prone situations are simply no longer a part of my life, self-analysis doesn’t get in the way there either… just the habit of avoidance and escapism that I’ve adjusted my life to revolve around.

I think that it isn’t actually my self analysis that’s causing my emotional paralysis but rather simply pure fear and shame and humiliation and whatnot… when I’m in an anxiety prone situation I’m not performing a self-diagnosis when I’m paralyzed with anxiety. I’m too busy for that.

I’m more comfortable with a stable life of self imposed isolation from the world of dating and close relationships because I can cope with low manageable levels of depression and loneliness far better than I can with heightened anxiety, panic attacks, shame, guilt, self-blame, humiliation, rejections, self-destructive behaviours, near-suicidal levels of depression and the nasty risk of hurting myself and perhaps hurting anyone who I become close to and care about enormously with my irrational behaviours that I have experienced first-hand as repetitive phenomenon which won’t disappear no matter how much I loathe their continued presence.
Often I have even considered a lobotomy or even death as preferable alternatives to willingly putting someone I deeply care about through that when it is more in my nature to prevent it as things are currently. On some level I even see my “mental incarceration” as a self imposed moral sentence and a point of honour that I cannot ethically ignore. So there you go. I admit that… I hate my situation, I blame myself (blaming someone else for it is inconceivable), but I find my self-imposed mental incarceration as preferable to the risky and extremely uncomfortable and often painful alternative.
How likely is it that the alternative scenario, as exaggerated in consequences as it may be, would happen if I forced myself into it??? – I think pretty bloody likely since it has repeatedly happened and I’ve never been able to find a way to get around that obstacle – if there is a way around that is…

So what can I say? – the main areas that I have been able to achieve self-improvement over the last 10 ears have been in improving my life in areas other than in building close interpersonal relationships such as academic and some career goals and more recently becoming independent… and in learning about my mental health issues and thereby learning to cope with the depression and loneliness, just not being able to overcome them entirely

It may be unfair, but I can’t morally justify or convince myself into going through the process of self-assertion in building close meaningful relationships with others knowing the risks I pose to myself and others. The unfair part I think is that hypothetically if a girl were actually ever to take some interest in me first that I may have something to build on, but we’re in a society that usually expects guys to make the first move and to be assertive in this area rather than girls… I know there are exceptions but I’ve yet to meet a girl like that who would look at me twice. That seems somehow pathetic of me to want a girl to make the first move rather than me IMO… but from where I stand I can (realistically) only speculate on possible working scenarios…

I’m rambling too much again I know… the only thing I want to ask right now is if anyone can suggest some realistic activities (for someone with close to zero confidence/self esteem and without a vehicle or passport, but with a bit of money to spend if worthwhile enough an idea) that I could take part in or habits that I should work on, because this sort of approach to other areas of my life have actually seen positive results…?????
But please don’t suggest speed-dating, I’ve been considering that for almost a year and still can’t push myself into doing that… something less stressful maybe… please…

I wouldn't have moved out of home when I did earlier this year had I not been loudly and angrily yelled at by one of my Supervisors at my other casual job... I got in trouble because I had to stop everything that was cooking and had to face a large angry crowd as the supervisor of a snack outlet myself. I kept a tiny bit still cooking to prevent what I thought would be a small riot, and I got in big trouble for that because I risked (without knowing this though) the overhead sprinklers going off... I wasn't told why everything needed to be shut off, I was simply told to do it and yeah, I got in trouble for not doing what I was told (I didn't know how serious the situation was, but that's no excuse, I got in big trouble...)... Anyway I felt so awful that I knew I had to drastically change something in my life to redeem myself in some way and so I pushed myself to move out of home and get my own place because I had been neglecting that for over a year (since I finished university)... anyway it was the feeling that I had disgraced and shamed and humiliated myself, and was almost verbally abused by my supervisor who I normally got along very well with that affected me so much...

I don't know if there's some way that some deeply harsh criticism from someone of my inability to get a girlfriend would motivate me to stepping forward and taking action... but all of my family and colleagues respect me and respect my choices and privacy and have never treated me badly (everyone in my family is probably a secular humanist, or a humanist at the very least, we don't bother to discuss that stuff, religion and that sort of nonsense has no part in any of our lives).

I've read about other people with love-shyness who have been completely rejected by their families for being unable to build a family, for being unable to give their parents grandchildren and so on... while I wouldn't want to experience that and my whole family loves and respects me too much to do that to me, I think that something that harsh may be able to do something for my own good if I were unable to avoid it... I'm not sure what though.

...

And yes, the sort of stuff you suggested does seem challenging but doable... I'll see how that goes... I usually have saturday afternoons and several evenings free each week... I know i'll feel uncomfortable going around and doing things by myself that would be better to do in a group, but I'll figure something out, set a few goals, see how it goes... Thanks.

I don’t treat people as property. EVER. In fact one horrible thought that keeps recurring in my head is that I would be too distant and could even justify how any girl unfortunate enough to be my partner would be better off alone or with someone else since I’m such a useless wreck of a human being. That horrifies me that I could justify rejecting a potential girlfriend based on my own inadequacies and self-loathing…

I've never been prescribed or taken medication for any of my mental health problems... I'm not sure if taking meds is a realistic option for this... though I suspect that I may have higher than usual dopamine levels in my bloodstream that I intend to ask a doctor about testing when I visit a new G.P. sometime in the future... (haven't seen a doctor since before I moved into my new apartment 4-5 months ago) since high dopamine levels are apparently quite common for chronic love-shy men like myself...

 

[TooShyShy]

Since you are not open to any of the ''things" love shy men use to ease their pain and anxiety; medications, alcohol--if only to loosen up at first, women for hire, sex therapists, etc. then i think what you need, as well as ALL THE MEN ON THIS BOARD is first...to TRULY LOVE YOURSELF or there is no way anyone else ever can..get involved in the things you like, do what you love and concentrate on yourself, bettering what you have to work with SELF LOVE is where to start!!!!!

And secondly, to let someone love you...you need to LET A WOMAN come over, grab you and TELL YOU that she wants you, but this does take TWO PEOPLE one to initiate and one to recipricate...if you are not strong enough to make any move towards a woman then you better be able to LET HER IN andknock down that wall or else it will NEVER HAPPEN case closed!!!!

I know i need to take my own advice and just bite the bullet and tell him - thats what the card is for - so its out there once and for all and then just let it be and i am prepared to do that after Friday...the rest will be up to him...love shy or not, he needs to make a choice about his life WE ALL DO!!!!!!


Be open to love, life and happiness...all that other stuff will seem secondary.

 

[Artanis]

TooShyShy,

This page might be of some use to your case:
How to Talk to a Shy Person - wikiHow


rand0m_guy,
It may be that my own case may be extreme so I strongly suggest reading about the symptoms of both AvPD and of Love-Shyness to be absolutely sure...

 

[Artanis]

The other day at work (bookstore) the most beautiful girl I've seen in about a year or more approached me at the point of sale asking about a book about single life for modern girls (ironically enough). She had long straight blonde hair and a gorgeous face, big smile, she looked like she was in her early 20s, nice dress, slender figure, and speaking to her it was obvious she had a nice personality and was polite and sensible. She was way out of my league it seemed to me and so I was able to give my expertise etc. to her without having a panic attack (which I would definately have had had I seriously considered asking her out). I ended up giving her some information about that book in case she wanted to make a special order later on and so I find myself looking out for her today and yesterday just in case. Damn that girl was incredible, I even woke up yesterday morning with her on my mind, imagining her asleep in bed beside me, giving her a deep kiss, affectionately stroking her, etc.
I haven't felt that way for a girl I've actually met in real life in years... I'm actually a bit afraid of what might happen if she comes back, even though I would love to see her again.
She was definately infatuation worthy IMO.

Should I try to forget about her?

 

[Havocan]

then i think what you need, as well as ALL THE MEN ON THIS BOARD is first...to TRULY LOVE YOURSELF or there is no way anyone else ever can..

I think you reached the core of love-shyness here. It's where everyone should start to make themselves more attractive by simply boosting their self-confidence a bit {not to the arrogant level, though^^}.

 

[StonedBob]

[Deleted post]

 

[Artanis]

sure, accept yourself, love yourself for who you are... but don't make the mistake that I did to think that being isolated and shy and love-shy and etc. are acceptable too... otherwise you lose motivation for, or make an excuse for remaining lonely and miserable still...

 

[Artanis]

Regarding your situation with the girl you met at work - do you really want to put yourself in that mindset again unless you know that you can act upon your feelings? Ie - asking her for a date. I don't want to be the bringer of doom or anything, but as you've said that she's very good looking, with a seemingly great personality to boot, coupled with the fact that she may only come in the shop once more, there will be a lot of pressure for you to follow through with anything other than speaking about what she's in the shop for. If you think you possibly could, then hell yeah, go for it! But having read your story, and your brief summary of your 'situation' with this girl, I think you may find it more difficult than you would if you knew the girl a little better. I guess I am going on how I think I'd be in your situation, but I think our thought process' may be quite similar when it comes to women.

Either way, I wish you good luck and hope it doesn't become to much of an issue for you whatever the outcome - keep us posted.

Yeah, that's exactly the problem... either I go for it and risk serious emotional trauma from something as small as a rejection, or I take a defeatist attitude and do nothing at all...
I don't know of any middle-ground approach to my problems because stuff like practice-dating-therapy doesn't exist in Australia as far as I know...
I don't know how to practically improve my social skills, gain confidence, take risks, etc. around women - especially women who I would want to be in a relationship with... sometimes I feel like screaming in frustration about this...
I can't just 'go for it' because I don't have the safety nets and essential skills of confidence, social skills, friends to support me, a respectable sense of style, courage, determination, and I'm not used to places like bars, night clubs, dancing, etc...

I wish there were support groups for young shy singles...


to flakeybark:
I know the feeling, there was a little sarcasm in my thoughts when I wrote that, didn't come across in text though... still I think it is worth putting some effort into trying to accept who you are beneath the love-shyness and related stuff... it may not work but it's better than nothing... if other people value your intelligence or hard work or whatever, you can use that I suppose to feel as though you have some worth and to know that other people appreciate you in that way... I found that was a decent enough starting point myself...

 

[Artanis]

Artanis,

I'm sorry if my 'go for it!' statement came out patronising - I can assure you it wasn't ment to. I know it's about as far from simple situation as you can get, and I feel your pain. I'm just not always great with words. I would love to give you some solid advice, I really would, but I just can't as I don't have any experience myself to do so.

I know both outcomes are likely to end in mental discomfort. I have personally always taken the avoidance route.

I have been rejected in an online scenario just recently however, and that wasn't pleasant for me either. I was speaking with a girl on MSN for a few months that I met via a social networking site, and even though I have limited experience to base this on, I'm almost sure she was interested in me. She was always asking me to go on webcam and throwing me compliments etc. Anyway, I found myself very attracted to her, even from just seeing her on webcam. I was very self-concious and quite anxious about being on webcam myself as I was attracted to her to quite a high level. She then asked if 'we could meet one day in the near future?'...

I knew full well that I wouldn't be able to meet her without telling her about myself, and I thought even if I did I still probably wouldn't be able to. Anyway, the situation started having a detrimental effect on my mental health, so I decided to 'come clean'. To cut a story short I asked her if she wouldn't mind hearing some things about myself, some problems of mine, to which she replied she didn't mind, and as I got the vibe that she wouldn't judge me to harshly, I proceeded to send her a lengthy email telling her everything related to my SA, and that it had caused me to have virtually no experience when it came to women. I almost had an anxiety attack at the thought her response as soon as I hit the 'send' button and had to go out for a walk.

Anyway, she sent me a sweet reply saying how she understood about mental health problems as her friend suffers from them, and that she'd 'try and help me'. I didn't know how to take that part. We didn't speak for a couple of weeks after that - my anxiety was sky-high about speaking with her, and I felt ridiculous about sending such an email. Obviously I put her in an awkward situation and I don't think she knew how to speak to me afterwards. I eventually initiated some conversation with her again after a couple of weeks, and decided to ask her if she was actually interested in me before I sent her the email. She said that she wasn't interested in me like that, and that she just thought I was nice and that she just wanted to be friends, and would be happy to meet me as such. I have to say even with my lack of experience, I do believe she was lying, and I took it as rejection. Even though I'd never met her in person, it did sting for a while I'll admit.

The only advice I feel I can give, is that you need to try and weigh up realistically if she'd be in your league in the 'real world'. And then going on that basis trying to work out some kind of odds of whether you'll be rejected or not. Of course the trouble with SAD etc is, that it distorts our self-perception and damages our esteem so much, that we can find it almost impossible to judge if people our in our leagues or not.

I'm sorry that it's crap advice, but it's all I've got unfortunately.

Your comments were not patronizing, at least not to me they weren't... my reaction was a mixture of my own tedious frustration and me as always being very hard on myself.

I can relate somewhat to your example... a few times I've alienated friends and potential friends by opening up to them about my problems which always makes the situation very uncomfortable from that point onwards...

Why does that happen exactly? - we can't possibly get better without making friends and working out way back into society, so why is there always that uncomfortable tension almost like fear of people like us from the people we try to open up to?

I hate being dishonest and keeping secrets from people I consider or want to consider friends, so I tell them about my problems sometimes when there is a level of trust, sometimes a bit earlier than that, and it almost always ends up destroying a relationship of mutual respect and trust. How the hell do we get around that?

On the one hand having trustworthy friends is really important for being able to enter close meaningful loving relationships with members of the opposite sex, but without already having had the experiences of having had those sorts of relationships already, and the self-acceptance and confidence that that builds as a result, we have enourmous difficulty just building and maintaining regular informal friendships... both situations of life support each other, but being love-shy or avoidant or whatever means that we can't get into either one or the other mutually beneficial situation of either having decent friends or of having a girlfriend.
What I would like to know is how exactly to get into one situation so that quite naturally the other situation will follow...

How can we build quality friendships in spite of having these crippling anxiety problems? How can we act as though we don't have these shameful problems which inevitably cause negative reactions in others...

Just recently I was in contact with a girl online who lives only a few kilometers away from me and I stupidly let her know about my issues since she essentially invited me to do so after admitting that she is bisexual and had some issues of her own... but I came away with the feeling that she reacted negatively against me for my issues and so we stopped contacting each other... I'm so sick of that sort of thing happening... supposedly lots of women these days are looking for the more 'sensitive new age guys' but I've never experienced that phenomenon myself, and I'm not ugly or overweight or anything, I'm just shy, but still intelligent, sensible, considerate, polite, etc...

I'm ranting so I'll stop here so I can get back to work...

 

[Artanis]

I'm currently reading the book - Heroes: Saving Charlie - which ties into the Heroes TV series... Hiro Nakamura would definately be classified as a victim of love-shyness... and those difficulties especially with things like difficulties relating to girls/women, infatuations, aesthetic appreciations, escapism, and a variety of other similarities between us love-shy are quite relevant to this story... and yet we still get Hiro's notable enthusiasm and back-and-forth mood swings between hyper-enthusiasm and depression... and the story itself has some very funny and enjoyable moments... I'm only a quarter of the way through right now but I recommend it to other love-shys - especially of course to fans of Hiro Nakamura...

 

[Artanis]

geez, where is everyone?


Right now I'm very worried...

About 3 or 4 weeks ago I made a new female friend who is less than a year younger than me (good); quite attractive but not extremely attractive (good); who has anxiety issues herself (of dogs) and is therefore sympathetic towards some of the anxiety issues I have (only my anxieties of driving we discussed) (good); is like me, a 'cat person' (good); is a fellow Atheist, Secular Humanist, Skeptic, Rationalist, Freethinker, intellectually honest, etc. (good); is an American expat living in Australia (many of my friends have been foreigners one way or another; good); is a nice thoughful and considerate individual (good); is very friendly and good natured (obviously good); says she has some free time and wants to have lunch with me specifically (wow, didn't see that one coming, a bit anxious because she is taking an interest in me...); she has a boyfriend...

okay, how do I approach this? - I like her, she's cute and a very nice person and we relate to each other well. we walked and chatted together from the pub back to the city (20 minutes to half an hour walk maybe) when we met each other in a group of around 20 people at the pub - we really had a good time together just getting to know each other and discussing just about anything. She may like me but I don't know how much because she has a boyfriend, and I've only ever met her once and even without lunch we're going to see each other again no doubt this coming Friday (monthly pub-night event). We've sent each other a few e-mails since we last saw each other but the fact is she is asking me out for lunch, not me asking her... and she even wants to stop by at my workplace to pick me up for lunch...

at the moment we're just friends and my anxiety is okay because I know that unless she takes action, she is off limits for any romantic relationship because she's already in a relationship with someone else... but if she breaks up with her boyfriend... I see some very close similarities potentially happenning as happenned with my last infatuation, Kendall, where we were good friends for quite a long time until she broke up with her boyfriend and immediately my anxieties and love-shyness turned that already bad situation into a disaster... just from a small crush...

and now I'm worried that I'm making too much out of this and thinking about this too much to my own detriment... I don't know what to think about this... no girl (let alone a potentially perfect relationship partner for me) has ever bothered to look at me twice...

EDIT: as it happens those anxieties are gone since I don't think of her that way now that I've gotten to know her. She's a good friend and I'm honestly quite happy to leave it at that

 

[Artanis]

still no new posts? - doesn't anyone have their own experiences to share?

I mean, I posted a lengthy description of how I was approx 2 years ago so that I could share my experiences, get some feedback, some 'peer-review' so to speak from other love-shys... yet it looks as though this thread has died since I posted my story.

I don't mind if my story is ignored because it is so lengthy, but I would still like to have a discussion about other people's experiences and ways of dealing with love shyness and related issues in general...

 

[kamen rider destrucity]

iam 20 years old and never had a real girlfriend ive never kissed or hugged a girl. i really want a girlfriend but find it hard to do so. everyoneelse in my family has someone but me. its just not right i deserve someone but girls just hate me. whenever i find a girl i like she say like you as a friend or nothing more or leave me alone or i will call the cops. i have been in troulbe for stalking and have been accoused of stalking 7 or 8 girls i dont remember. IT JUST NOT RIGHT IAM A NICE PERSON. i have just completely given up trying to find love in this world. i think dating is overrated anyway. go out with some shrill harpie who will talke your money and soul. women are evil all of them i think it should be legal to hurt women. they do nothing but treat men like there own personal wallet and when they run out of money they go find another sucker. all guys that date are suckers. I also thing public dsiplays of affection should be illegal.

 

[Avery]

still no new posts? - doesn't anyone have their own experiences to share?

I mean, I posted a lengthy description of how I was approx 2 years ago so that I could share my experiences, get some feedback, some 'peer-review' so to speak from other love-shys... yet it looks as though this thread has died since I posted my story.

I don't mind if my story is ignored because it is so lengthy, but I would still like to have a discussion about other people's experiences and ways of dealing with love shyness and related issues in general...

I just read through your posts (though I admitted I skimmed over some parts!).

I can certainly sympathize in many places, and can empathize in others, but sad to say I have no advice or consolation to offer. I'm 22 myself, so I'm younger than you, and am at a bit of a social and vocational crossroads myself -- my decisions over the coming months and years will have a massive impact on the rest of my life, and as usual I'm so cautious and overthoughtful that I'm juggling dozens of possible majors, careers, lifestyles, etc., and have yet to find an answer, though I'm years beyond needing to.

I can maybe offer some feedback by comparing your life to mine, though: I can honestly say that you seem to have been through more than I have, regarding peers and such. I was an outcast in school as well, but I was almost never picked on or mocked. Nor was I ever befriended. If I could describe my adolescence, I'd say it was a long flat line: I had no friends, no enemies, no good or bad days, no hopes or even fears. I wasn't liked or disliked or thought much of at all, save for some fleeting female interest that I was too chickenshit to do anything about. I never dated, never left the house except with family, and struggled for years with my desire to reach out romantically and my genuine disinterest in male (or female) friends. The overall effect was numbing. Go to school, come home, nap, play video games, sleep, do it again. I was dull to the world, and life often seemed like the epitome of pointlessness. To a certain extent it still does.

The one big similarity I see (besides the overall anxiety and love-shyness, of course) is that we both feel like we missed out on something in our formative years. The accelerated social development that comes about in adolescence may be vitally important, especially in romantic relations -- it's a depressing thought, but it could be that we simply missed out on a crucial development period and can never fully recover it, much the way that language acquisition becomes ten times more difficult past childhood. A learning area of the brain blossoms for new information and norms at a given age, and then withers when the allotted time has passed. We may have missed the window.

I've got some other thoughts and such, but I'll save them for later I suppose. I need to sleep now!

 

[Remus]

Interesting article on this in the Sunday Times today:

Love shyness: the 'condition' crippling men - Times Online

Love shyness: the 'condition' crippling men

They dream of intimacy with a woman, but can’t even bring themselves to say hello. Are these men just very shy, or are they suffering from a rare psychological condition?

 

[Remus]

still no new posts? - doesn't anyone have their own experiences to share?

I've not had much problem with women either dating or as freinds, I have SA with everyone. I have been officially diagnosed with S.A.D. I do wonder if SA and love shyness are two seperate issues. I see this site frequented by a lot of single guys with the "never had a GF" problem. Maybe it really isnt SA and this LS condition?

I browsed the forums over at love-shy.com - Home and saw alot of guys on there who seem fine with other guys, it's girls they totally struggle with, this is very different to SA

 

[Lea]

Is this only a men thread? Strange. Not that I would mind, I don´t feel like discussing my problems anyway.

 

[Illusions]

Is this only a men thread? Strange. Not that I would mind, I don´t feel like discussing my problems anyway.

Women can definitely be love-shy too but most agree that it affects men a lot more seriously, so it's mostly brought up in relation to men.