How far down the ladder are we?

[theslowesthand]

Does society regard people with social problems the biggest losers out there? (ie on a par with druggies & criminals, or even lower?). And even THESE people may well view people with social problems as even bigger losers than themselves. Family also (i get the feeling that even THEY have always tended to be somewhat "ashamed" of me, due mainly to my lack of ability to engage socially with people, and lack of a social life (ie 'no life' or 'wasting life away'). And often in the past, involving people (either family, friends, peers, or public) i have felt ignored & unimportant & inferior.
Edit: Also never having had a "relationship", i have always felt less of an "adult" (ie a "boy"). And it's not just my imagination, but people do seem to "respect" you less if you're single, and especially if you've always been single (in this country (NZ) anyway).

So, just how far down is the "rung" that we really are on???

 

[Aussie_Lad]

The only ladder is that in your mind, and everyone may have different thoughts as to where they perceive themselves on the ladder. What other's think of you isn't your concern. You concern is to live your life the best you can, and if people look up to you then that's good, but if they look down on you then it's your job to shrug it off and get on with life. If everyone on earth died and you were still alive, you would find a way of coping with life after the initial shock. So live like there is no-one else on earth. You are on your own mission and sometimes that mission can be a solo one.

 

[3lefts]

Studies have shown that people with anxiety in social situations usually cause the other people to become uncomfortable and mean because they are retaliating against the possibility of sharing our feelings. They don't want to be like us so they treat us worse because of it. Finding a sort of dominance or superiority to confirm they aren't like us and what not so forth. Something along those lines.

 

[Horatio]

I've always thought that often the definition of loser is based on what the perceived chances are of that individual reproducing. Sexuality really as at the core of our society. It dictates fashion, the cars we buy, the way food is marketed, everything.

If someone is fat, then they are commonly perceived as being less likely to have sex. So that makes them a loser.

If someone is a geek who likes computers, then they can often be perceived as being less likely to have sex. So that makes them a loser. (At least during high school anyway, then when they have lots of money it changes!).

Someone who is poor is often looked upon as being a loser. That is because money does help breeding chances. Rich guys find girls easier than poor guys.

So when it comes to social anxiety.... yeah... I'm afraid that people who aren't as socially active and confident can be considered losers. Being socially awkward is more likely to impact on a males ability to reproduce than female (due to males often being expected to make the first move, and be seen as confident) so males with social anxiety are more likely to be looked upon as losers.

That's my honest take on it anyway

 

[theslowesthand]

Another definition of loser (whatkatiedid's sig): "You're never a loser until you quit trying"

 

[Looking_in105]

The only ladder is that in your mind, and everyone may have different thoughts as to where they perceive themselves on the ladder. What other's think of you isn't your concern. You concern is to live your life the best you can, and if people look up to you then that's good, but if they look down on you then it's your job to shrug it off and get on with life. If everyone on earth died and you were still alive, you would find a way of coping with life after the initial shock. So live like there is no-one else on earth. You are on your own mission and sometimes that mission can be a solo one.

great advice!

 

[twist3d]

Social skills are probably the most important skills in modern world. You always gotta sell yourself - to get friends, to get a date, to get work, to just get ahead in life.

This is why psychopaths do so well in life. They become presidents and big company bosses and celebrities. Even if they are complete a-holes, even if they are a bit dumb and don't really have much skill - if you can charm people THEY WILL DO ANYTHING YOU WANT.

So yes. I do believe that people with bad SAD are at the bottom. If you SAD isn't very bad then people might think you are just modest and humble, maybe even sensitive and intelligent. But if you are as bad as me, you ARE SCUM. Sad but true.

I personally feel like I have much less worth than some child rapist. Even they can do something good for society, I will always be a burden.

 

[Social_Monstrosity]

I've always thought that often the definition of loser is based on what the perceived chances are of that individual reproducing. Sexuality really as at the core of our society. It dictates fashion, the cars we buy, the way food is marketed, everything.

If someone is fat, then they are commonly perceived as being less likely to have sex. So that makes them a loser.

If someone is a geek who likes computers, then they can often be perceived as being less likely to have sex. So that makes them a loser. (At least during high school anyway, then when they have lots of money it changes!).

Someone who is poor is often looked upon as being a loser. That is because money does help breeding chances. Rich guys find girls easier than poor guys.

So when it comes to social anxiety.... yeah... I'm afraid that people who aren't as socially active and confident can be considered losers. Being socially awkward is more likely to impact on a males ability to reproduce than female (due to males often being expected to make the first move, and be seen as confident) so males with social anxiety are more likely to be looked upon as losers.

That's my honest take on it anyway

CHECK.

CHECK.

And...CHECK.

 

[JamesSmith]

Does society regard people with social problems the biggest losers out there? (ie on a par with druggies & criminals, or even lower?). And even THESE people may well view people with social problems as even bigger losers than themselves. Family also (i get the feeling that even THEY have always tended to be somewhat "ashamed" of me, due mainly to my lack of ability to engage socially with people, and lack of a social life (ie 'no life' or 'wasting life away'). And often in the past, involving people (either family, friends, peers, or public) i have felt ignored & unimportant & inferior.
Edit: Also never having had a "relationship", i have always felt less of an "adult" (ie a "boy"). And it's not just my imagination, but people do seem to "respect" you less if you're single, and especially if you've always been single (in this country (NZ) anyway).

So, just how far down is the "rung" that we really are on???

I think you have the wrong perspective on this issue. From the things you mentioned in your post, it sounds like you've written down the mindset of the ignorant and immature part of society. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people like that in the world, but I think you are making things sound worse than they are. I believe a lot of people don't think as badly as we think they do. I thought everyone hated me at my past job, and when i left i later found out that most of them actually liked me and respected my hard work. They just didn't understand me, which is the case for a lot of people.

No we aren't "lower on the loser pole" than everyone else, we are just socially anxious and different. There are people that want you to believe that you are lower just because they want to feel better about their lives because frankly their lives aren't going as well as they want them to. If you notice, it's the people that are comfortable and secure w/ themselves that are the people that don't make fun of us. It sounds to me like u have an issue with thinking things are worse than they are, like so many of us do.

As for the relationship thing, I've noticed it's mostly guys complaining about the whole virgin thing. I don't understand why so many guys think it's such a bad thing to be a virgin. I believe being a virgin is a strong quality and it tells the woman that you will eventually be with that you will be faithful and the relationship will mean more when you find the right girl. The reason a lot of society objects to virginity is because they don't understand what love is yet. Ask people that are married what they think of virginity, a lot of the answers will be something along the lines of "you should be happy" or "i wish I would have waited."

 

[Aussie_Lad]

Social skills are probably the most important skills in modern world. You always gotta sell yourself - to get friends, to get a date, to get work, to just get ahead in life.

This is why psychopaths do so well in life. They become presidents and big company bosses and celebrities. Even if they are complete a-holes, even if they are a bit dumb and don't really have much skill - if you can charm people THEY WILL DO ANYTHING YOU WANT.

So yes. I do believe that people with bad SAD are at the bottom. If you SAD isn't very bad then people might think you are just modest and humble, maybe even sensitive and intelligent. But if you are as bad as me, you ARE SCUM. Sad but true.

Still it's all frame of mind. I will give an example of the mindset with relation to career.

Suppose a large corporation has a structure which resembles a pyramid. You have the CEO on top, then you have the middle managers and then production staff. With this model, it is assumed that the managers have one of the most important roles in the company, and because they are paid more, it confirms this belief. This is the tradional way of thinking. There is another way though.

The other way of thinking is a upside down pyramid. The production staff are the workers, and the managers are there just to support the production staff. Therefore the production staff have the most important role in the company. This may be a simplified way of looking at things, but when you see things from another viewpoint, you start to realise that the way most people see things is not necessarily the only viewpoint, and that the other viewpoint can also be correct.

Admittedly social skills is a good asset to have, but it is not the be all and end all as far as making you a more or less worthy person.

 

[KiaKaha]

There are no such thing as losers. That's just a label, and labels are inaccurate and cannot describe a person in their entirety. Sure some of us fail, but that doesn't mean that the person themselves is a "loser" and has no worth as a human being (although I am sure a lot of people would disagree with me)

The problem with SA is that it makes it so difficult to deal with almost all aspects of life. Unless you can become completely self sufficient and remove yourself from society, you HAVE to deal with people effectively, and if you cant, then things not only become difficult by limiting your opportunities and experiences, but also by losing out on relationships with other people, making one become lonely and unhappy. Humans are social creatures by nature, its an innate part of our being.

The trick is to understand that your life is important, the personal opinions of others about you are not. Actually achieving that, is the hard part.

 

[AGR]

Social skills are everything,dictates a lot of things,what kind of work you get,if you have a girlfriend,friends,helps to not be picked,bullied,even your worth and etc,so I would say yes we are at the end of the line most of the times.

 

[just wanna b normal]

we are way below haha cuzz even criminals have a life i understand what you are saying. im a loser & i know even a criminal has lived out a more fulfilling life than i ever did...

 

[Mokkat]

I just read a chapter in my school psychologi book about "social constructionism"

Basicly its about perception of reality based on the society we grow up in - like an amazon tribe not having a definition of "trees" compared to "plants", but 30 names for the color red.

Beyond that though, it is also a marker for identity. If you are the popular ladies man in school, you will naturally feel cool and be outgoing and witty. If you are rich you will feel good by naturally looking down on the poor.

If you are a thief, society responds by punishing you. If you are a homeless guy always begging in crowded streets in ragged clothes, society will down on you. If you go through life doing you own little projects but never amount to anything, you are a loser.

If you are still living with your parents, have never had a girlfriend or a job, you are a loser in western society because you are not making money or getting a family like everybody else.

Our problem is not about being losers though. It is about not understanding our role in society, being anxious and scared of performing the interactions we need to be "normal", about not being able to have a "normal" identity because of lack of social interactions and being used to that.
It is also about people not being able to fathom whats wrong with us. In the eyes of most people it would be no problem for anyone to get a job, apartment and girlfriend within a week...

 

[Cynic]

Does society regard people with social problems the biggest losers out there?

Definetely.

(ie on a par with druggies & criminals, or even lower?).

Even lower.

And even THESE people may well view people with social problems as even bigger losers than themselves.

Well people with social difficulties get bullied and harrassed by criminals, but rarely the other way around, so yes.

i have felt ignored & unimportant & inferior.

So have I - probably because I am inferior.

people do seem to "respect" you less if you're single, and especially if you've always been single (in this country (NZ) anyway).

Universally. Furthermore, the longer you've been single, the less likely you'll appear on the radar of any potential partner.

So, just how far down is the "rung" that we really are on???

Lowest of the low.

I personally feel like I have much less worth than some child rapist. Even they can do something good for society, I will always be a burden.

That just described me there.

 

[theslowesthand]

Some really good posts.

But I now realize that the title actually has more than one meaning. So i will try to "break it down" into separate possible parts.

Here are some different definitions of "loser"...
. . . * An "overall" loser

• May feel unimportant to society/people (ie feel that society/people regards you as unimportant to them, or just unimportant/unworthy/scum/etc)
• Bottom-dog. Opposite of top-dog. End of the "queue" for receiving good things in life. Probably start of the "queue" for receiving bad things in life.
• "Loses/misses out" on things (eg in western society, missing out on things that it values, such as money, girlfriend, car, job,..)
• Scorned, rejected, ridiculed, bullied/harassed, ignored. Why?. Maybe due to "not being like everybody else" in society.
• Inferior in certain/many aspects

And here are some different "ladders"...

• Top-dog/bottom-dog
• Career
• Company
• Alpha, Beta, Theta ...... (Us)
• Social status
• Social class (nobility...surfs)

It would be an interesting project to expand upon all this, such as to place us on ladders compared to the common street beggar. I may do this...

 

[Dronee]

I think the only real ladders are personal ones, where at the top is our best potential self. You can keep comparing yourself to other people, but that usually only makes you feel down as the tendency is to look up at all those above you. I don't think it's very healthy to see how "far down the ladder we are" in terms of the social ladder.

 

[6string]

I was originally going to respond to whatever was written in respones in here but since it looks like all of you have covered what I would say I will just answer the topic alone. Anxiety and issues with feeling inadequate/having low self esteem go hand in hand. Don't get me wrong I feel the same way and can't seem to help it but as a 3rd party I can guarantee than none of you are down the ladder, you just convince yourself that you are. As for myself, I dunno I wish I could take my own advice and not call myself a pos at every turn

 

[twist3d]

Still it's all frame of mind. I will give an example of the mindset with relation to career.

Suppose a large corporation has a structure which resembles a pyramid. You have the CEO on top, then you have the middle managers and then production staff. With this model, it is assumed that the managers have one of the most important roles in the company, and because they are paid more, it confirms this belief. This is the tradional way of thinking. There is another way though.

The other way of thinking is a upside down pyramid. The production staff are the workers, and the managers are there just to support the production staff. Therefore the production staff have the most important role in the company. This may be a simplified way of looking at things, but when you see things from another viewpoint, you start to realise that the way most people see things is not necessarily the only viewpoint, and that the other viewpoint can also be correct.

Admittedly social skills is a good asset to have, but it is not the be all and end all as far as making you a more or less worthy person.

I understand what you mean and it's admirable idea. But do you think it's reality? Society treats even the most corrupt and lazy CEO better than the most hard working and decent worker at the bottom of the pyramid.
It SHOULDN'T be like this, but it is.

Just like people with SAD SHOULDN'T be seen as losers. It's no fair or just but neither is the world. When I look at the users here, I see some of the most kind, empathic and humble people. Good people. People, who would make great wives and husbands and friends and workers and members of society if only they had the chance. Often social anxiety and insecurities go hand in hand with being "too kind". Jerks rarely suffer from these issues.

We are NOT lower than criminals because we don't hurt other people with our issues (at least intentionally). I and some other people occasionally believe this because we see the way society treats us and think that it must be just and true. It isn't, but it doesn't matter much since most people have the need to fit in. To follow the standards even if deep down we know they aren't right.

When people see us, they see someone who doesn't fit in. And society can't handle this. So for someone with SAD, they either become "normal" (much easier said than done) or they deal with all the bad that comes from being seen as freak, loser, weak etc.

People are pack animals. And packs have orders. I don't believe in the alpha-beta-bullcrap. It's not so simple, but the order exists. And those high in the ladder often spit on us down here to secure their own position.


Because in all of the whole human race, Mrs. Lovett, there are two kinds of men and only two. There's the one staying put in his proper place and one with his foot in the other one's face.
-Sweeney Todd

::

 

[Just G]

Ok, I realize that everyone is trying to make this a scientific discussion, but at the end of the day, does it really matter where we are positioned?

See, everyone including me at one point, has worried profusely over the thoughts of others.

Can we control what others think? Absolutely not.

Should we care what others think? Absolutely not, unless it's people that we confide in and have a relationship with.

The movie Van Wilder sucked a big one, but it did offer a meaningful quote that is applicable to this situation.

"Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere."

Do you think if that MLK guy had worried about social order and rules that we would have ever seen the Civil Rights Movement come into fruition?

As a matter fact, the most inspirational leaders and icons of Western society have been the ones that have tread a different path from everyone else.

They came to be admired because they had the balls to be who they wanted to be without compromise.

It was the confidence and convicition behind their beliefs that captured everyone's imagination.

That's how revolutions are formed.

That's how trends get started.

The point is, none of this "oh, where do I fit on the spectrum" talk is beneficial to your progress.

This is your life. Nobody lives it but you. When you focus on improving yourself and do the things that you enjoy, then that's when everything will take care of itself.

Remember, self respect breeds respect.
W

And who knows? You could be borderline trendy and not even know it.

NOTE: I don't want everyone to think I'm a nazi by shifting the conversation, but it's honestly how I feel and it was something that I thought needed to be expressed.