Hate Capitalism!

[nafadda]

Can you give me an example of what basic rights people don't get, say in our country NZ? I think the poor get enough over here. I think we have it lucky over here. Hundred of years ago people did not have what we have today. You don't need much to live. People make choices, its their choice in how they live and what they spend their money on. I've probably gone off topic here, but what really annoys me is people that moan about the rich vs the poor. Maybe people who are rich have done well and worked hard to get there. Also if you cant afford kids, well don't have them, that makes people poor.

i agree,why do people continue to have more and more children if they can not afford them?/ i mean i can see if it happens once,but after that .come on,people know what causes children,so take precautions and don't expect someone else to support them!there was a book called "it takes a village to raise a child"....i believe it takes the 2 parents being GOOD parents to raise that child!!!then the village may want to help..but they should not be forced to do it.

i mean a person can say all the good they do in the world and want others to know about it..i believe in the integrity quote.."integrity,when you do the RIGHT thing even when no one is watching"// do it because you want to .not because you want everyone to call you a martyr..i have no idea what everyone on here does ,no more then anyone knows what i have done in my life..i have NO need to talk about my every good deed in the world.it's just that simple IMO.

also I am smart enough to know and UNDERSTAND that NOT everyone will feel the same way as I do.I have NO ill feelings against rich people or middle class or poor ,if they are at least trying and NOT just wanting a HAND OUT,A hand up is fine,a hand out after a while gets real old.

.People have a right to feel how they want to about issues,that does NOT mean they are wrong or right,it simply means they have the RIGHT to their opinion and some can even stand a good debate about an issue they believe in and don't get all mad if someone believes differently..thats called diversity in an adult conversation as far as I know.

 

[KiaKaha]

^^ thats very obviously directed at me, so I will just simply say that the only reason I pointed out my background was for the purpose of the topic at hand and my experience is the reason as to why I have come to my personal beliefs. I felt I needed to validate myself to get my point across... I have no desire to be a 'martyr' nor to seek approval or admiration. I have been on the forum for a couple of years now and have never spoken about any of that before....and I guess I wont ever again in case I get accused of seeking attention.

and yes I do get annoyed sometimes when its something I am passionate about.... you know... being a human being and all.

 

[nafadda]

my post was NOT directed at ANY one ..as a matter of fact ,since I have heard the same argument many a time ,it was as I said MY opinion.

I would never expect anyone had a need to self validate with a dossier of info..if they want to talk about what they do or have done,fine..all I was saying is that never assume about others just because they may not want to do that.

to say one is taking classes as if to say NO one else ever has taken classes is just funny to me..I have no idea who has a PhD and who doesn't..what I do know is i have seen some "useful idiots" as some liberal professors have called them not get facts straight and just believe everything they are told without researching facts on their own..,,and BTW,,before any one get annoyed...I did not invent the phrase "useful idiots"..i am simply quoting it.

since I have been on both the right side and left side of the fence,I simply speak from experience and what my research has taught me now...and as always.I may not agree with everyone but I defend your right to say it

 

[Shant]

I just really hate money. The damn stuff runs the world. I can't help but be really stingy and frugal when the stuff is so hard to come by, and wasting anything is nearly a sin.

I can't say it's because I had a poor upbringing or anything, but I'm somehow trying to pay for all my college tuition, and yet somehow find a way to move out from my parents house - whom are arguably emotionally abusive.

I. Hate. Money. Just out of hatred I will directly call it the root of all evil, whether that's true or not.

 

[Lowlight]

I think that when people start to complain about capitalism they are really talking about corporatism or crony capitalism. This is when corporations and government collude to scratch each others backs by giving out corporate welfare in return for votes and support for candidates and administrations. True free market capitalists would have as little government intervention as possible.

A lot of good things have been born out of capitalism. People have come up with great products and services because they had the freedom to create and experiment with their own companies. Further, the jobs created by these companies have put food on the table for countless families. Government intervention in the form of higher taxes and unduly strict regulations only make job providers let people go in order to stay competitive.

Whenever discussing this I always have to point out that capitalism is far superior to communism. In order for communism to work you have to have a dictatorship of the proletariat to usher forth the later stages. This means granting almost unlimited power to a very small group of individuals. This ALWAYS ends badly. A quick rundown...

Soviet Union: 60 million killed
People's Republic of China: 35 million killed
Khmer Rouge Cambodia: 2 million killed

Those are just a few communist highlights from history. Capitalism may have its flaws, but trust me the alternative is not a choice.

 

[SAM2011]

Sorry Nafadda. I posted a comment and deleted it straight away. I didn't realize ShyKiwi had commented so quickly on my post, so his post wasn't aimed at you.

Anyway I believe in equal rights. I think most people want the same as everybody else does.

Just like what Shant has said, he has grown up poor and has managed to pay for his collage and move away from his abusive parents. To me I look up to someone like that, because he has made a positive change and choice to better himself. In NZ we get free heath care (America doesn't) we get free education from 5 years to when you leave school to go to university and we do have a good welfare system. The thing is people have a choice to make their life better. What annoys me is I know lots of people who have grown up poor and are now making lots of money because they have decided to get off their butts and do something with their life and be in-dependent. I hate that they can penalize the richer because there should be some obligation? People keep popping out kids like rabbits and they wonder why they struggle? I think in NZ the poorer get offered a lot more help than an actual couples who are working full-time that actually don't get any help whatsoever, There are people that are on benefits that earn money from other sources ripping off tax-payers money but they can moan at how much they don't get etc

 

[MollyBeGood]

I hate the fact that the world revolves around money. it IS the root of all evil

agree.

Money/affluence makes people monsters who think they have a right to control others because they possess it.

This world is screwed because of greed. Pure and simple.

 

[nafadda]

thats ok sam,i said that because the person under the post i had posted earlier said they thought the post was directed at them ,,thats why i said that,nothing you said.

i agreed with what you had said...i don't know a lot about your country but i do have a book here about it and it looks like a beautiful place.

i agree with what you are saying about people ..time for them to help themself .

 

[KiaKaha]

Ok first a disclaimer. If I got that wrong about your post being directed at me, then I apologize. It SEEMED like it. I got it wrong, secondly I understand people have different beliefs than mine...its fine, I have been having these kinds of arguments for a long time. I can accept that people arent always going to agree with me. I however feel that in my soul what I believe is right I will always put people before money and big business, and I will stand by my principles.

Equal rights is interesting concept. Its funny, most people I speak too say they are are for equal rights....but that all depends on how you define equal rights...or rather... how you define what is fair.

Obviously my version of equal rights is very different from some other posters here. So I guess that is up for interpretation.

The thing is people have a choice to make their life better. What annoys me is I know lots of people who have grown up poor and are now making lots of money because they have decided to get off their butts and do something with their life and be in-dependent.

Agree. To a certain extent. This is where you and I differ. Like I said before effort should be rewarded. And it does happen, its admirable.... but it doesnt happen for everyone.... just because its easy for some people doesnt mean its easy for EVERYONE. Its not a mathematical certainty...there are FAR too many variables to say well if HE did it...then so can everyone else. Not everyone is capable of becoming lawyers, architechts and doctors... what about people who sweep the streets 40 hours a week because thats all that they CAN do? Do they deserve to be treated any less because of the job that they do? or how much money they earn? Do you really think earning minimum wage is acceptable even through an honest hard working job? I mean lets face it...our govt gave a tax breaks to the rich, he then increased GST (after he said he wouldnt) which effectively made the rich richer and the poor even poorer. To out govt the working class are mere monetary units to be expended simply to further the agenda of the upper class.

You want to talk about people ripping off the tax payer? It goes both ways.

The point is, poverty is not black and white. You cant simply say well he's poor because he deserves to be poor...there is SO MUCH MORE to peoples lives than a knee jerk judgement.

Yes I do think the rich should pay more taxes, I think we should have a capital gains tax (just another loophole for the rich for tax evasion where poor joe blogs gets taxed for every penny he earns) where does ambition effort and success end and helping the people who suffer from third world diseases begin? (because of poor state housing)

Yes, there needs to some personal responsibility. Yes people should not bludge off the system and yes people should only have kids if they can look after them properly. But by virtue of being born into this world then there are basic needs that is a right that the govt should supply to the people to at least lead an adequate and healthy life.

Anyway, I will probably be flamed and pointed out to show how flawed my thinking is etc.

 

[SAM2011]

thats ok sam,i said that because the person under the post i had posted earlier said they thought the post was directed at them ,,thats why i said that,nothing you said.

i agreed with what you had said...i don't know a lot about your country but i do have a book here about it and it looks like a beautiful place.

i agree with what you are saying about people ..time for them to help themself .

Hey. NZ is a very beautiful place. A lot of people come over here and say how friendly we are. We are very giving people too, I guess some people can look at government and politics in a very negative way, wasting their voice behind a computer screen and they're the ones that don't ever do anything. I've always wanted to visit America someday. If you ever come over here you will love it, especially our nature and scenery (depending on were you go). Queenstown/South Island is an awesome place to visit

 

[MikeyC]

I would love to visit New Zealand myself. It looks magnificent over there.

 

[KiaKaha]

Lets just agree to disagree Sam. We obviously dont see eye to eye. So I apologize if I upset or annoyed you or anyone else. Now I really am done this time.

 

[MikeyC]

You will love it here Mikey (come to Wellington if you can, its the best city lol). I have visited Australia a few times. I love Australia.

Australia is a great country, too, even though everything is spread out and there's a whole lot of crappy desert. I would love to go to Wellington and Auckland and visit the mountains of the South Island and all that jazz. I think it'd be wonderful. One day!

 

[SAM2011]

With the GST thing ShyKiwi, you've got to think that the richer people are the ones that are spending more of their money (instead of the poorer people) and paying more of the GST which goes into the Government.

Equal rights for me is: Everyone deserves the basic free healthcare and education etc.

That is not the case for the rich though. Take the community service card for example it gives people on lower incomes cheaper doctor's visits, $3 prescriptions and cheaper activities (movies and swimming) etc

Now for someone that doesn't have a community service card doctors visits can cost up to $80 and usually prescriptions cost $15 EACH, but yes they can afford that.

I think in NZ its not about the rich, its about the middle income earners, they are forgotten, they are the struggling full-time workers that are not entitled to any help, they don't have kids and they are just above the income to get any help at all. I think the poor in NZ actually do get a lot in comparison to the rest of the world. You can't please everyone. You are right about the minim wage, but raising that can make employers make staff cuts, than they go on the benefit which in turn costs the government more money and makes people less off because they are on the benefit. They need to raise it slowly with inflation, not just wham it up to $15

To me it all comes down to over-population and people having kids when they know they can't afford to have them. Education is the key for those people.

A job is a job and some people do struggle on low wages. I get that. Everything is expensive, what isn't these days. Some friends of mine that are living on a very high income, well they are feeling the pinch too. I believe you can do well on a low wage by how you spend and what you spend your money on.

What I don't understand is people on a low income/beneficiaries that keep having children over and over, that is something I don't get in NZ.

I can go on about this all day, but I'm going to stop talking now lol.

 

[SAM2011]

Australia is a great country, too, even though everything is spread out and there's a whole lot of crappy desert. I would love to go to Wellington and Auckland and visit the mountains of the South Island and all that jazz. I think it'd be wonderful. One day!

The South Island is really nice.

I love the wildlife in Australia. The Gold Coast is amazing and OMG the beaches are so nice over there.

One day you will come here Mickey

 

[SAM2011]

Lets just agree to disagree Sam. We obviously dont see eye to eye. So I apologize if I upset or annoyed you or anyone else. Now I really am done this time.

I guess we don't see eye to eye, that's cool. Everyone has their opinion.

 

[1BlackSheep]

I think there are very valid points on both sides, however I personally lean more towards ShyKiwi's point of view:

This is where you and I differ. Like I said before effort should be rewarded. And it does happen, its admirable.... but it doesnt happen for everyone.... just because its easy for some people doesnt mean its easy for EVERYONE. Its not a mathematical certainty...there are FAR too many variables to say well if HE did it...then so can everyone else. Not everyone is capable of becoming lawyers, architechts and doctors...

Yes, there are those who "mooch" off the system, but there are many who desperately want to make a better life for themselves yet due to circumstances that are beyond their control, are unable to. That said, I think that there should be a system of checks and balances whereby the "moochers" will be cut off if they don't do their fair share. I know, easier said than done!

I also believe that people who are substantially wealthier than the average person have a moral obligation to help those that are less fortunate. Sure, you may have worked hard to earn all of that extra money, but do you really need 100 billion dollars to get by?

The other thing I don't quite understand is why people get so up in arms here in the US over universal health care because it's "socialism". Isn't Medicare socialized medicine? I work in the healthcare field and am shocked at how impatient and demanding some people who are fortunate enough to have healthcare coverage are. They really take it for granted when there are so many who would give anything to be able have even a minimal level of care!

Let the flames fly where they may!!!!

 

[SAM2011]

I also believe that people who are substantially wealthier than the average person have a moral obligation to help those that are less fortunate. Sure, you may have worked hard to earn all of that extra money, but do you really need 100 billion dollars to get by?

I think most people agree with that and I do agree, but where do you draw the line with Wealth? I know people that have worked hard to get were they are and earning about $80,000.00, now this is classed as having money so you need to pay the top tax rate here which I think is between 30-33 cents in the dollar. They pay the same as someone who can earn $300,00.00. The person that I know that earns that $80,000.00 is very giving with his money. He doesn't have a lot to show for it due to debt from ages ago. He doesn't get cheaper health care nor takes anything from the government. I think that is why they gave the tax break to those income earners. But if I was earning $300,00.00 dollars a year + I know I'd be giving a % percentage away. But to be honest there are a lot of people that earn a lot that do give it away to charities etc more than what the average lower income people would ever do. I also think it comes down to your individual personality as to how giving you are, its not up to just the higher income earners to do it, get my point? A little bit goes a long way for someone in need no matter how much you earn. Count your lucky stars you weren't born a 100-200 years ago, you had no choice and people back than died young. Men would have to hunt for their food and do the hard stuff well woman worked in their house, now that was hardship and a poor life. Fat people back than were considered rich because they ate well.

 

[1BlackSheep]

I think most people agree with that and I do agree, but where do you draw the line with Wealth?

Good question, but I unfortunately don't have a good answer. No matter where the line is drawn, someone will complain!

 

[Thelema]

A pure capitalist society couldn't survive much better than a pure communist one. We see ourselves as capitalist, but we're really more in the middle-socialist. Socialism leads to good cheap healthcare, education and does really good things for us. Want free healthcare, free education, free roads with lights? Socialism.

we can't get rid of money.

We couldn't go and make some small society out in the woods before one guy started selling underwear from bark. This is a hot item and there's lots of demand. There's no money so he trades underwear for things he needs. But soon he has everything he needs because everyone wants underwear.

Now you want some underwear, but he doesn't want to trade for something you have. So now you need some sort of common currency to get the things you need.

Now you notice other people are trading shiny rocks and everyone wants them. You trade someone else for some of their shiny rocks and you trade that to the underwear merchant.

Now the underwear salesman has lots of rocks because he sells an in demand product. Suddenly he's rich with rocks. He has twice as many rocks as anyone else. Nothing in this is evil or wrong. It's very natural.