Equal Rights

[S_Spartan]

Ok let's only throw gravel to each other and keep our best rocks for the real enemy

Satan?

As you said it yourself, women broke out their stigmas. Only men can break out their own, men being "you"

But I would also like to add, everyone feels like they have to perform, it's the 21th century. But in the end you still do your own choices.

The only way for men to break out of their stigmas is to drop out of the mating game because the majority of male stigmas go back to how they mate with women.

Historically men have attained their identities through being a provider/protector for women and children. Society up and said "we don't need you anymore" so now men have to figure out exactly what their identity is in this new paradigm. Many are learning, for the first time, how to live totally for their own interests.
But when they do that society tells them they are not acting like an adult.


See, the whole reason these gender threads are so popular is because people are confused. Men and women still want each other but we don't know how we fit anymore.
The equalists will pipe up and basically assert that we all have 100 percent free will over our mating strategy but we don't. There is this pesky biological firmware running in the background telling us what we want in a partner.

I would bet money that even the most ardent feminist has had a Christian Gray fantasy or three in her private moments. There is a reason for that!

Since women have been at the bottom of the ladder since ever and they are just starting to rise up, it can hardly be otherwise. Are you saying women are stealing high status jobs that should come back to men?

No, I'm saying that women are gaining the high status jobs, men are losing high status jobs but women have not yet adjusted their expectations of men. They still want to "mate up" but it's getting harder to do that.

Women figured out what to do with themselves, your turn now. Society is either an abstract entity, which won't figure out shit, or it's the sum of all of us, which, surprise, includes you.

Society is fractured now. The only reason feminism thrived was because it took place in an environment that was comfortable enough for it to thrive.
Believe you me, if there was a war or a famine in the 1st world now nobody would be sitting around thinking about who has what right! We would all revert right back into our primal selves in survival mode.

You really think it's because women started working? This world is still ruled by men you know. Women can't get a job without a degree either, it's a gender-unrelated issue.

Never did I say that the world was not ruled by men. But rather I said that the pool of high status men is shrinking. There will always be men at the very top. But these men are not living by the same rules that the rest of us men live by.

Well women should move to change things so they don't have to get a degree. But most women seem to love credentials. College has become the female right of passage. So they just keep feeding the system.

The reason to this is, unlike men, who can still earn a lot of money without a college degree in "men" jobs like construction, women won't be able to make a living without a degree (unless they feel capable to stand the pressure of trying to make their way in a domain typically reserved to men). Therefor, if a woman don't go to school and don't have a man to support her while she is producing his offspring, she is screwed. Or a gypsy.

...or have the government pay for her offspring which I have seen happen a lot in my town.

A man can make money in construction but he will never be high status unless he owns the company.
Which man is a successful, college educated woman more likely to go for? A blue collar construction worker with no credentials who earns less than her or the guy who owns the company who makes more than her?

I think I may have gone off topic, but I think I really needed to respond to your post.

PEACE

Peace, my friend!

 

[S_Spartan]

Here are two Psychology Today articles that I found yesterday that kinda sum up(more eloquently than I) what I've been saying in this thread. I was actually shocked to see a mainstream publication speak so frankly about this subject.

Why Are Men Frustrated With Dating?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201204/why-are-men-frustrated-dating

Why Women Can't Find a Good Man

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201203/why-women-cant-find-good-man

 

[SelfHater]

You know, I have a relative that is in college now. She is a self proclaimed feminist that takes "women studies" class. She posts stuff I disagree with all the time. "Men are the source of most problems" and crap like that. I challenge her on her thoughts. She can never back her statements up with accurate data. Her and her friends eventually call me names but do not give any facts on how I am wrong. The world is going to chew her up when she graduates. She thinks that she is owed something for being an educated female.

I had to chuckle. Perhaps you have seen the disgusting video with the little girls cussing up a storm talking about inequalities. She posted how "beautiful" that video is. She posted how "empowered, strong, and powerful" she is as a feminist. Few hours later she posted how she had no idea what to do! She had no hot water, boo ho. I pointed out that despite how powerful she is, she is waiting a few days for a man to show up to fix her water heater. A man is going to save the day once again. She pointed out that a woman could fix the heater just as good as a man. I agreed but told her that women chose for the most part not to be electricians or plumbers. Those jobs pay well, and the labor is not extensive. Women think I do not know what, but they chose not to do that kind of job and self limit themselves. Told her to call around and find a woman plumber, she could not find one. Told her to figure it out on her own, she did not want to touch the water heater.

I would hate to see this thread turned into men vs women. I am for equality. But I can't sit back and be blamed for the worlds problems. I not going to feel guilty about my sex or skin color. I can't change that, it was the way I was born. I treat everybody how I want to be treated. However I completely understand why the younger generation of men give up on women. Both men and women are constantly fed crap. People walk around with chips on there shoulders. Just be yourself. If you are traditional thats ok, if not that's ok too. Just to much over thinking going on so that people do not even know what they want until years down the road. My self I always thought tomboys were hot.

Anyways, my relative who is a feminist in "woman studies" was never taught who Madam C. J. Walker was. She was the first woman to be a "self made millionaire." She was also African American and managed to do this during a time of segregation. Surly you would think her name would come up as a hero is a woman studies class. But what do I know. I only achieved an associate degree and never attended an Ivy League College like my relative.

 

[Megaten]

The only way for men to break out of their stigmas is to drop out of the mating game because the majority of male stigmas go back to how they mate with women.

Im not even sure how that'd be possible. Yeah you have a few guys that'll be like "f**k it" and stop dating. But there are too many other guys that benefiting from those eons of evolution and would greatly appreciate the drop in competition. In fact thats probably why its been so successful since time immemorial. :idontknow:

 

[S_Spartan]

Im not even sure how that'd be possible. Yeah you have a few guys that'll be like "f**k it" and stop dating. But there are too many other guys that benefiting from those eons of evolution and would greatly appreciate the drop in competition. In fact thats probably why its been so successful since time immemorial. :idontknow:

Women will make it possible! The top 20% of men will ALWAYS do well with women. The bottom 80% will be mostly ignored by women or be seen as a place holder until the woman can acquire a man with the status that she feels she deserves.

The top 20% men will have women competing for their attention and commitment but most likely will not commit to these women.

Women will be forced to go against their biology(which is what men are being forced to do now) and they will have to give the 80% men another chance (but only IF society still cares about marriage and monogamy by that time).

This may all sound wild but it's happening right now. It's a slow process but if you really open your eyes to it you can see perceptions being changed.

The sexual marketplace operates just like the financial marketplace.

In America we are always being told that the middle class is being "hollowed out" while the top 1% is getting richer.
Nobody really seem to give it much thought because the changes are so slow that we just get used to the "new normal."
I can see these changes when I go to the second hand thrift stores. These places used to not have many people but now they are like absolutely crowded. Recently I overheard a dude make a comment about this in one of these stores: "This is where the middle class has to shop now." And it's true, in order to keep up the middle class lifestyle they have to work harder, accrue more debt, and be more frugal with their money.

And so it is with men. The 80% male will have to jump through more hoops and work harder to attract and keep the attention of the average modern woman because the sexual marketplace is becoming unnaturally unbalanced to favor the top end.

Many men will find the hoops too tiring and just drop out and we are already seeing this.

 

[Odo]

Maybe you should overthrow the government and force women out of the workplace so every lonely male in the western world can finally get a girlfriend.

 

[S_Spartan]

Maybe you should overthrow the government and force women out of the workplace so every lonely male in the western world can finally get a girlfriend.

Clever. It's too hard to talk about these issues rationally because people always want to label you as someone extreme.

Guess that is why people stick to short, feel good answers when it comes to complex gender issues.

 

[Odo]

Clever. It's too hard to talk about these issues rationally because people always want to label you as someone extreme.

Guess that is why people stick to short, feel good answers when it comes to complex gender issues.

I was under the impression that vast sections of the Internet are dedicated to these issues.

And I don't think you're being extreme... actually, your narrative is pretty common these days.

 

[MollyBeGood]

There's no correct answer or solution to anything in regards to gender. There will always be people left out and there will always be the "victors". Just like in nature. We are a constantly evolving species, what is the norm today will be laughed at in 20 yrs. we are two different genders for a reason though. We are not ment to be exactly the same. This is where things go wrong when we think that we should be so similar.

I agree the changes that we are going through are slow and subtle which is why we are excepting of them. I actually find comfort in each gender having a specific role and with that an importance in society like the Native Americans had. They for me are an example of a proper society in so many ways.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

Satan?

The system...

But when they do that society tells them they are not acting like an adult.

Do you know what women went through and still go through to break their stigmas? I think you can handle this.

However, I don't think "dropping out of the mating game" systematically means to spend your days playing video games, as you seem to imply. Society will judge you if you don't do anything with yourself, not if you're single. If you argue me on that part, remember that a single woman is just as much likely to be judged than a single man.

Well women should move to change things so they don't have to get a degree. But most women seem to love credentials. College has become the female right of passage. So they just keep feeding the system.

Do I need to remind you there is still some places in the world where women aren't allowed to go to school? Going to school is not feeding the system.

You think ignorance is the key to heaven or what?

As for women getting a decent salary even though they don't have a degree, I think feminists are working hard on that one already.

A man can make money in construction but he will never be high status unless he owns the company.

I know you will say I'm wrong, but you do not need to be high status to be in a relationship. A lot of women are not looking for the high status guy, because a lot of women are not high status themselves. There is a shitload of low status women out there. You are highly over-estimating women's paycheck.

Here are two Psychology Today articles that I found yesterday that kinda sum up(more eloquently than I) what I've been saying in this thread. I was actually shocked to see a mainstream publication speak so frankly about this subject.

Why Are Men Frustrated With Dating?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201204/why-are-men-frustrated-dating

Why Women Can't Find a Good Man

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201203/why-women-cant-find-good-man

I've read both article and I don't agree with your interpretation of it. According to what I understood from the articles, what the guy is saying is that we live in a difficult era for relationships, for both men and women, however nobody is screwed, it's just that we need to consider our options carefully and make a choice according to what we feel would be best for ourselves.

So according to these articles, you do have choices. He even states the choices in the articles, among which you can find your "dropping out of mating" option.

And so it is with men. The 80% male will have to jump through more hoops and work harder to attract and keep the attention of the average modern woman because the sexual marketplace is becoming unnaturally unbalanced to favor the top end.

Many men will find the hoops too tiring and just drop out and we are already seeing this.

But women are exhausted as well. Everyone is. We are insane. I am convinced that at some point we will have a collective breakdown. Hopefully it will be followed by a short period of chaos leading to a new equilibrium.

 

[S_Spartan]

The system...

I think we can agree on that!

Do you know what women went through and still go through to break their stigmas? I think you can handle this.

I'm a middle aged man, I really don't care what people say about me but the younger guys might care about being called a child because they don't feel that the benefits of marriage/domestic life with a woman are worth the effort.

However, I don't think "dropping out of the mating game" systematically means to spend your days playing video games, as you seem to imply.

I wasn't saying that men SHOULD drop out and play games. I was saying that men ARE dropping out and playing games.

Psychologist Philip Zimbardo: ‘Boys risk becoming addicted to porn, video games and Ritalin’ | Life and style | The Guardian

Do I need to remind you there is still some places in the world where women aren't allowed to go to school? Going to school is not feeding the system.

I'm talking about America where college is becoming more expensive by the year and degrees are becoming a commodity.
Girls especially seem to see college as a "rite of passage" now and I wonder how many really actually want to go to college but rather feel that they are being forced to do it?
All I will say is that this is an extremely expensive rite of passage but people seem to be ok with that.
Also many jobs could be done without a degree and just a little training. BUT we have to keep people in the system cause money(lot's of money!) is being made!
But I'm getting terribly off track here....lol

You think ignorance is the key to heaven or what?

You know, the older I get and the more I learn about the world the more I wish I didn't learn about the world.
Educated or uneducated people are all still pretty much just a-holes. We actually wouldn't even be having this discussion if people weren't a-holes! We would all just mesh together and compliment each others strengths and weaknesses. But we all want the power. WE ALL WANT TO BE ON TOP!

Living in such an environment with so many educated people you would think that we would reach a point where people become so civilized that they don't get offended about every little thing. Someone(uneducated) would say or do something offensive and the educated person would say "that is a negative experience, I find it offensive, but I am civilized, I am evolved, I think I will just move on." But this is not the case, the educated person yells and screams and takes offense just as the uneducated person does. They scream "LOOK AT WHAT YOU DID TO ME! LOOK AT HOW YOU MADE ME FEEL!"

So what I see now is an environment with tons of highly educated people but not many civilized people. There is a difference.

As for women getting a decent salary even though they don't have a degree, I think feminists are working hard on that one already.

I would hope so but all I ever hear is "you get that degree gurllll!"

I know you will say I'm wrong, but you do not need to be high status to be in a relationship. A lot of women are not looking for the high status guy, because a lot of women are not high status themselves. There is a shitload of low status women out there. You are highly over-estimating women's paycheck.

I addressed this earlier in the thread. I do think that even low status women feel, at least in part, that they should be entitled to a high(er) status man. Much of this is just simple biology.
A man is trying to spread his DNA as much as possible, a woman is trying to obtain the best DNA possible.
All of the motions that men and women go through are really just motivated by reproduction(or the possibility of reproduction).

In the past both genders had to make some concessions in order for most average people to have a shot at reproduction.
But now people don't want to make the concessions, so it's becoming a free-for-all market.

Will people still reproduce? Absolutely! But I'll just leave this here:
The Childless Millennial - The Atlantic

A chaotic environment almost always benefits the people are the top so I can easily see a future where many average people's DNA is simply left out of the gene pool.

I've read both article and I don't agree with your interpretation of it. According to what I understood from the articles, what the guy is saying is that we live in a difficult era for relationships, for both men and women, however nobody is screwed, it's just that we need to consider our options carefully and make a choice according to what we feel would be best for ourselves.

So according to these articles, you do have choices. He even states the choices in the articles, among which you can find your "dropping out of mating" option.

You have to admit the choices aren't necessarily good ones! I mean if it has come to the point where a woman has to have an "agreeable" husband at home and then look outside the marriage for an "exciting" lover in some Poly arrangement that seems about as un-ideal as guys "dropping out".

But this is the trend in the modern age: Lots and lots of unappealing choices!

Society at this point simply cannot make up it's mind about monogamy. It's really wants it both ways now and it feels good to say "well it's up to everybody to make that decision for themselves" but what this is giving rise to is the Mini-Relationship because people want monogamy when it is easy but when things get hard(and in any relationship they will) they want to bolt.

But women are exhausted as well. Everyone is. We are insane. I am convinced that at some point we will have a collective breakdown. Hopefully it will be followed by a short period of chaos leading to a new equilibrium.

It WILL come because things as they are now are simply unsustainable.
But things will get a whole lot harder before they get easier.
It's a very slow process and because it is slow we acclimate to it but we always know that something isn't quite right. This is a time when everyone seems to be on edge.

And with that I am leaving the thread cause I think I have said absolutely everything I can about this subject and I'm sure I have strayed from the OP's original intent.

If anyone would like to further discuss this, feel free to PM me.

 

[Opaline]

Clever. It's too hard to talk about these issues rationally because people always want to label you as someone extreme.

Guess that is why people stick to short, feel good answers when it comes to complex gender issues.

Yes. I'm tired of having someone overreact or getting knee**** reactions, so I avoid these topics for the most part or don't say everything I'm really thinking because it isn't worth having to deal with nasty comments or hurt feelings and all of that. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I also don't like to go around offending people, whether it's my fault or theirs, sooooooooooooooooo

 

[Opaline]

I'm talking about America where college is becoming more expensive by the year and degrees are becoming a commodity.
Girls especially seem to see college as a "rite of passage" now and I wonder how many really actually want to go to college but rather feel that they are being forced to do it?
All I will say is that this is an extremely expensive rite of passage but people seem to be ok with that.
Also many jobs could be done without a degree and just a little training. BUT we have to keep people in the system cause money(lot's of money!) is being made!
But I'm getting terribly off track here....lol

Degrees aren't becoming a commodity, they've been one for a while. Not sure exactly when it happened. And the tuition rates increase on average an 8% per year. It is absolutely outrageous.

I agree with you about feeling forced to go to college - of course no one is FORCING me or anyone else, and technically there are other things I could do, but let's be honest - the way it's set up makes it very difficult to be able to take a different path and not be dirt poor, even if only a handful of degrees are actually useful (STEM majors). You can go to college and still be dirt poor, too, of course, especially lately. Fields are saturated, people aren't hiring, the old need-experience-to-get-experience catch-22, student loan debt, etc.

I went to college because I didn't see a viable alternative, and my major isn't very useful unless I work my *** off to "market myself" - ugh, that phrase makes me want to vomit. Anyway.

Sorry if this is derailing the thread but I'm not going to pass up an interesting post

 

[ImNotMyIllness]

Degrees aren't becoming a commodity, they've been one for a while. Not sure exactly when it happened. And the tuition rates increase on average an 8% per year. It is absolutely outrageous.

I agree with you about feeling forced to go to college - of course no one is FORCING me or anyone else, and technically there are other things I could do, but let's be honest - the way it's set up makes it very difficult to be able to take a different path and not be dirt poor, even if only a handful of degrees are actually useful (STEM majors). You can go to college and still be dirt poor, too, of course, especially lately. Fields are saturated, people aren't hiring, the old need-experience-to-get-experience catch-22, student loan debt, etc.

I went to college because I didn't see a viable alternative, and my major isn't very useful unless I work my *** off to "market myself" - ugh, that phrase makes me want to vomit. Anyway.

Sorry if this is derailing the thread but I'm not going to pass up an interesting post

Agree!








(obligatory 10 characters, seriously spw)

 

[Bronson99]

A chaotic environment almost always benefits the people are the top so I can easily see a future where many average people's DNA is simply left out of the gene pool.

I think you see the wrong future.

People just aren't that elitist, shallow, and/or selective.

Did you lose your "glass half full" mantra somewhere along the way, mate? You certainly can't be a happy person when the only things you can say about the human race are cynical and pessimistic.

 

[BlueDays]

Relationships are whatever the people involved in them want them to be. Everything else is propaganda.

^ Exactly.:thumbup:

The only time I have ever had a relationship in my life happened because I did the approaching, started it etc.
Gender-specific stereotypes make society more of a mine field than it has to be. This is 2015 for god's sake. Certain instances in history have shown that the humans that can adapt to changes are the ones who tend to survive better, in that they have more enriching, better quality lives.

 

[ScaredToBreathe]

A lot of interesting opinions on this topic
I have been very intrigued by gender roles and stereotypes in society and have learned a lot from a sex and gender university class I took:

- there is no such thing, and no definite way to measure, what is "masculine" and "feminine" -- all people have traits of each, and the terms do not apply to solely men or women, they just promote gender stereotypes
- women are more attracted to "feminine" men than "masculine" men (true for me... my boyfriend is very "feminine" in the sense that he is gentle, caring, expresses emotions, and isn't dominant/controlling)
- people who do NOT conform to gender stereotypes are, on average, of higher intelligence than those who do
- men commit 90% of ALL murders

I'm a girl and I've taken my boyfriend out on 99% of our dates (and pay), including our first date. I've also given my boyfriend flowers. And I get him little gifts and things I know he'd appreciate-- he rarely does this for me (but can't really afford to either). But he is super supportive, he comforts me when I'm depressed, he makes time to spend with me even though we live together, and sticks by my side even when I feel worthless and hopeless.

And I do believe our shift in gender equality has negatively affected men. Men shouldn't resent women for wanting equal opportunities, but women shouldn't think that makes them better than men. No matter the gender, we're all people and we should all have the same opportunities and equal rights without sexism toward either gender. Unfortunately, I think there will always be sexism in society.