Dawkins Scale (theist-atheist)

Where are you on the Dawkins scale?

  • Total voters
    98
Starry

Starry

Well-known member
Nice post, Lea!

joule said:
nooooo hhaha please without getting into the 'what is reality?' debate

The statement 'The Earth is flat' may be proven to be incorrect while the belief 'The Earth is flat' is valid.

My point is that a belief can not be wrong. It may be disproved factually but the belief still stands. Belief has nothing whatsoever to do with fact. You can't have 'a wrong belief' its like an opinion.
Click to expand...

The belief, whether it remains or not is still wrong... Yes, the person still believes it, so yes it stands, but it is an incorrect belief... Valid to them, perhaps, and valid in that it is a belief, but wrong nonetheless...

And should the person realise their error and change their beliefs, then they would most certainly admit "I was wrong to believe that." I admit I was fully wrong to believe many things in the past, and in the future I may realise I'm wrong to believe things I do now... Though, I try not to believe anything without sufficient evidence...

I think we're over-analyzing the words a bit too much here... So I'll say no more on the subject.
 
kilojoule

kilojoule

1
I'll put it a little differently.

Think of an opinion. People have different opinions but I don't think anybody's opinion is wrong. It can't be wrong because it's their belief, you can't say someone's belief is wrong. It just doesn't work. It is their perspective.


You can say a fact is wrong because facts can be wrong. You can't argue a belief or an opinion.


That is just how I see it though. Somebody else may well come along and say that beliefs and opinions are not the same and they are different and that is a whole other philosophical debate.

Many dictionaries would define opinion using the word 'belief'
 
kilojoule

kilojoule

1
Zarathustra said:
I don't know. I think there's a difference. Opinions indicate your feelings about something, beliefs are something you hold as personal truth. The latter has more to do with an assertion of fact, whereas the former is based on subjective experience.
Click to expand...

It's an unusual one isn't it, it's very hard to pinpoint what the difference is between 'opinion' and 'belief'. It seems to be open to interpretation. I've wrecked my own a head a few times trying to figure it out.
For example, I can say that I dislike a song, that's an opinion.

If I say I believe pigs rain down from the sky, that's a belief, and it's just plain wrong.
Click to expand...


This is were I disagree

You can make a statement 'Pigs rain down from the sky' If I can collect data to prove otherwise, I can prove that your statement is incorrect.

You can say 'I believe pigs rain down from the sky' and I have to accept that, that is your belief. It is your truth, I have no right to tell you that what you believe is wrong.


Do you see what I mean?

Joule is right though, you can give someone all the factual evidence in the world and they aren't necessarily going to buckle to fact. They might still believe.
Click to expand...

Very very few people will stop believing what they believe when faced with evidence that disproves it. No good can come of questioning somebody else's beliefs. A set of beliefs does not originate from facts. It comes about as a result of culture, upbringing, education, exposure to other cultures, opinions of people you respect, what you hear and see in the media. What you believe is a mixture of what you've been exposed to and is often cemented in with your identity. If someone comes along and says 'what you believe is wrong' it's not only arrogant and disrespectful, its detrimental to somebody's identity. A belief is a very personal thing and it really isn't open to debate and proofs.
 
NathanielWingatePeaslee

NathanielWingatePeaslee

Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
Staff member
joule said:
I don't think anybody's opinion is wrong.
Click to expand...
Not even if their opinion is that Carly Rae Jepsen is the best musician of all time? :confused:

Zara. You still didn't vote. Would it be possible to describe what you believe without using the numbers, or did you plan to not disclose that?
 
NathanielWingatePeaslee

NathanielWingatePeaslee

Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
Staff member
Oh not at all. :)

So long as it doesn't get locked because of some stupid flame war--and that's not what you guys are doing.

I'm getting good data, anyway. And the spread seems to bear out my suspicions. I know we have a couple more 1's here, though.
 
coyote

coyote

Well-known member
we can't think or believe something into existence any more than we can think or believe something out of existence

the best we can do is to stop thinking and believing long enough to clear our minds in order to try to see what is there
 
kilojoule

kilojoule

1
Zarathustra said:
I see where you're coming from. I'm not sure where I stand. In the sense of questioning someone's belief in God? I think that's disrespectful and futile, and I'm in complete agreement with you, it's arrogant and pointless.

Then again, I don't think it's always the case that we shouldn't question a belief. If someone says "I believe that the (insert religious text) has told me I must persecute (insert group of people)" I could at once say they're wrong and I would say that should be open to debate and proofs. A lot of the passages in religious texts have been abused out of context, because people attribute meaning to them in order to reinforce their beliefs.

Another example I'd use is where a belief is detrimental to other people. Not using Hitler as an example, since, nobody in their right mind is going to advocate genocide. But let's take somebody who believes that the Jewish people are essentially a disease that need to be wiped off the face of the earth in order to protect the Aryan race. They aren't actually doing it, but they're espousing their belief to anyone that will listen. Is it wrong for me to question that belief? Should I stand by and let it gain momentum?

I'm not being rhetorical, I don't really know how I feel about this. I agree with some of what you're saying but I do feel there are exemptions.
Click to expand...


You raise some interesting and rather extreme points. Just to pull it back on topic though, I am referring to a religious belief and not actions made in the name of religion or politics or under dictatorships or cults. Actions can be policed and that is an entirely different subject.

With regard to beliefs though, It isn't our job to police what other people believe. Our beliefs are no more right or wrong than anybody elses and we have no right to claim otherwise.

The right to freedom of belief is a Human Right


Article 18 -- Freedom Of Belief

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes the freedom to change religion or belief, and the freedom -- either alone or in community with others and in public or private -- to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
 
kilojoule

kilojoule

1
NathanielWingatePeaslee said:
They don't stop playing her on the radio here. They just...don't...stop. :crying:

I didn't even realize the video was softcore porn. No wonder it has 420 million views. Here you go.

Yay, I'm sidetracking my own thread with porn! :eek:h:
Click to expand...

Oh I have heard that. Show me who believes this is good? I will learn them!!! :giggle:
 
Scrobes

Scrobes

Well-known member
I guess weak-atheist for me. I believe in the power of the self than something outside of us. I'm skeptical but openminded. I do feel there is more to life than meets the eye *cue Generation 1 Transformers theme* but what that is, is perhaps beyond our capability to understand while we're alive. That doesn't really have much to do with God I know, but just giving some context. That's the short version. If I think of a long version, I'll add it some day. ;x

Finally, this little scene from Contact seems topical and I always loved how it was presented as a thought provoking aspect of this. (the bit I mean is towards the end of the clip). :) Contact: Occam's Razor - YouTube
 
Kiwong

Kiwong

Well-known member
joule said:
I agree with you that Creationism is a belief. I'm just a little hazy on this point. I'm just not sure. because I don't think that's necessarily true of all Creationists. I think Creationists share the common belief that A Supernatural being created the Universe and the life within it. I think it splinters off after that.
Click to expand...

Yes, there are Christians who accept the findings of science, and the existance of God, but I don't think they call themselves creationists. They might be scientists (zoologists, geologists etc) or theologians who support the fundamentals of science, but also have faith in God.

After doing some looking around on the web, it seems most creationists are recent earth creationists, those that beleive that Noah's flood was a factual event, all life was created in a week. You are right that there are other branches such as old earth creationism looking to reconcile the findings of science with a non literal interpretation of Genesis in the bible.

I think the important distinction is that this is not science, and the practioners of creationism are not scientists.
 
kilojoule

kilojoule

1
Kiwong said:
Yes, there are Christians who accept the findings of science, and the existance of God, but I don't think they call themselves creationists. They might be scientists (zoologists, geologists etc) or theologians who support the fundamentals of science, but also have faith in God.

After doing some looking around on the web, it seems most creationists are recent earth creationists, those that beleive that Noah's flood was a factual event, all life was created in a week. You are right that there are other branches such as old earth creationism looking to reconcile the findings of science with a non literal interpretation of Genesis in the bible.

I think the important distinction is that this is not science, and the practioners of creationism are not scientists.
Click to expand...

Oh that's very interesting how they divide up. I thought there might be more trying to reconcile religion and Science given theres a few "Christian Scientists" doing the rounds at the moment. I went to a couple lectures here about 10 or years ago by a visiting 'Christian Scientist' It was very interesting listening to him too but he was definitely a 'Christian' first and then a 'Scientist', extremely biased. Of course nobody queried anything he said. The lecture I remember, he focused on trying to present proof for Noah's ark and the flood.
 
kilojoule

kilojoule

1
0619-carly-rae-new-emoji_ob.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top