dating & friendship

[dottie]

do you think it is wrong to date when you don't have friends?

the thing is, i know how to date but i don't know how to make friends. it sounds so backwards. but it is so much easier to date because there are clear set rules (call at this time, don't call at this time, approach it this way, don't approach it this way). when it comes to friendship it seems there are no rules and so i really don't know how to maintain a friendship. how often am i supposed to call? should i just text? how often should i invite them out? oftentimes i miss social cues and i am afraid of imposing.

i know how to flirt. i know how to seduce. whatever. i can score a guy even if i am awkward. it is easier when you are female.

so yadda yadda, relationship ensues. there is a point where he wants to hang out with his friends (duh). but then because i don't have my own friends it is kind of awkward. he ends up feeling guilty for having friends and wanting to go out. it is not my intention to make him feel guilty about it! and it is not my intention to trap him or keep him from enjoying his friends. it's more like, "hi. i have friends, you should, too." then i feel inferior for having less of a social life, although i try to hide it.

so, is it wrong to date when you don't have friends?

 

[mmmm]

Of course it isn't wrong.


Try this. The next time he wants to go out, send a text out to all your potential friends that you aren't sure about saying. "Hi. A bunch of us are going to ......... tonight if you want to come. You should get just enough people to keep a conversation going without needing too much input from you. I know it sounds cheesy and desperate but that doesn't change the fact that it works.

 

[coyote]

do you think it is wrong to date when you don't have friends?

the thing is, i know how to date but i don't know how to make friends. it sounds so backwards. but it is so much easier to date because there are clear set rules (call at this time, don't call at this time, approach it this way, don't approach it this way). when it comes to friendship it seems there are no rules and so i really don't know how to maintain a friendship. how often am i supposed to call? should i just text? how often should i invite them out? oftentimes i miss social cues and i am afraid of imposing.

i know how to flirt. i know how to seduce. whatever. i can score a guy even if i am awkward. it is easier when you are female.

so yadda yadda, relationship ensues. there is a point where he wants to hang out with his friends (duh). but then because i don't have my own friends it is kind of awkward. he ends up feeling guilty for having friends and wanting to go out. it is not my intention to make him feel guilty about it! and it is not my intention to trap him or keep him from enjoying his friends. it's more like, "hi. i have friends, you should, too." then i feel inferior for having less of a social life, although i try to hide it.

so, is it wrong to date when you don't have friends?

dottie - i feel like i could have written this myself (except for the being female part)

i don't think it's wrong to date when you don't have friends

it might be wrong to date in place of having friends - which is what I think i have done too much

the only people I'm interested in spending time with are women I'm attracted to. But it seems that once one relationship is established, I have trouble figuring out how to draw the "friendship" line with the others, because i only seem to know how to "date"

or else i'm limited only having one friend at a time - the woman I'm in a relationship with - and then she becomes everything to me (a precarious position for us both)

 

[DespairSoul]

Yes i know also how to date. But i don't know how come closer to others around my bf.
I feel inferior also i don't have frends but issue is i don't want no one close to me coz i don't trust people and if i see they don't like me enough i back off. I'm sad if he go out and i can't coz i don't have any activities and i know his frends don't like me at all and if i feel they don't like it my company enough after it i'm too not interested spend time with them.

 

[Jack Blue]

Part of dating is being somebody's friend, a companion. You should definitely date, it is good practice for becoming a better friend anyway

 

[Waybuloo]

do you think it is wrong to date when you don't have friends?

the thing is, i know how to date but i don't know how to make friends. it sounds so backwards. but it is so much easier to date because there are clear set rules (call at this time, don't call at this time, approach it this way, don't approach it this way). when it comes to friendship it seems there are no rules and so i really don't know how to maintain a friendship. how often am i supposed to call? should i just text? how often should i invite them out? oftentimes i miss social cues and i am afraid of imposing.

i know how to flirt. i know how to seduce. whatever. i can score a guy even if i am awkward. it is easier when you are female.

so yadda yadda, relationship ensues. there is a point where he wants to hang out with his friends (duh). but then because i don't have my own friends it is kind of awkward. he ends up feeling guilty for having friends and wanting to go out. it is not my intention to make him feel guilty about it! and it is not my intention to trap him or keep him from enjoying his friends. it's more like, "hi. i have friends, you should, too." then i feel inferior for having less of a social life, although i try to hide it.

so, is it wrong to date when you don't have friends?

How do you know how to flirt when you don't know how to befriend? Asking because it's usually believed that the reason for ineptitude in both stems from low self esteem and lack of skills. Do you just go with the flow when flirting or do you have tricks up your sleaves? Enlighten at your discretion.

 

[Feathers]

Interesting thread.
I may have more thoughts on that but need to organize them a bit.

Lots of people in relationships don't really have friends - too busy with life or jobs/careers &/or kids... or for example if they move to another place, or if their friends move away or are in another town/country/worldwide... Or maybe they never had many to start with either, or never learnt how to make'em... Maybe just need to learn some things & basic how-to, or someone to say hi and smile.. to find 'right people' to click with..
I read somewhere that traditionally, women were considered to be more social and sociable, keeping track with friends, it's not necessarily so, one or the other can be more or less sociable..

As for texts and phone calls, you can take it from the other person a bit, it's usually best if it's reciprocal (one text/phone call from them, one text/phone call back..)
People are different and it depends on their life circumstances and interests how often they might wanna hang out... So you might wanna find people with similar or compatible interests and life circumstances.. (sometimes easier said than done, you can work on it tho - eg join a gym, club or go volunteering) If you're waiting for your life to be 'perfect' before you date or do other things would you actually ever do anything?

If you are happy with solitude it's okay, just reassure your man you'll have fun anyway, schedule something cool for yourself - tv film or a manicure or massage...? (and brag about it-? ) Or, you can learn how to make and maintain friendships too... There's some info online etc.

I think dating is okay, go for it if you really like the person and you're both single/free/available.. (or in mutually agreed 'open relationships', though those can be tricky??) and you and the other person are not having a rebound time or something like that.. Only ask yourself if you're looking for a 'relationship' with this person, or just for 'friendship'? (If you're just looking for friendship it's kinda misleading to 'lead them on'...) There can be 'murky waters' though, where neither of you is quite sure.. (and that can be a flirty fun time, though hmm.. some people can get hurt there too I guess.. so be careful) Be sure you are both on the same page of what you want: just casual or something more long-term? (Of course you can't tell right away, you can find out pretty soon tho.)

There was an interesting thread on this forum where a girl wrote that becoming physically intimate to guys was a way to establish contact more easily (and people back then yelled at her for being a whore/slut or such). I think I do understand what she was on about though. I think it may be true to some extent, that it *is* easier to establish contact and rapport with someone who is soo definitely 'interested'. (When I had a boyfriend, it was also easier for me to talk to other guys too, cause I didn't have to worry what they would think about me as I was 'taken' already...)

I'm pretty sure lots of people would want you guys to be friends, you just might not know it!!!

 

[Feathers]

How do you know how to flirt when you don't know how to befriend? Asking because it's usually believed that the reason for ineptitude in both stems from low self esteem and lack of skills. Do you just go with the flow when flirting or do you have tricks up your sleaves? Enlighten at your discretion.

Waybuloo, I think I understand where she's coming from: someone I know can easily get guys to admire her: she's very flirty etc. She has trouble maintaining these relationships and any friendships though (especially with other women).

Dottie, do you have troubles establishing or maintaining friendships? (Do people just 'fall for you' even though you just wanted them to be friends?)
Or is it just that you don't know what to do when a guy is out and you aren't?

I'm interested in what W. asked too he he All others, feel free to reply too..

 

[lurknomore]

I don't know how to date or make friends... but the making friends part does seem like an easier goal at this point. I have what you might call "work" friends, I guess I just need to get up the courage to initiate doing stuff with them outside of work. But I've never initiated anything in my whole life... so I guess I'll remain friendless and dateless.

 

[Felgen]

I find it easier to date than to make friends. I'm never "friend zoned"; if a girl rejects me, she is never interested in my friendship either.

 

[dottie]

being friendly (flirtatious?) vs maintaining friendship are two completely different things.

i'm friendly to pretty much everyone on a superficial level (smile/small talk). some guys can perceive this as flirting. they might reciprocate and you can do one of two things: 1. drop the hint that he has the wrong message and withdraw, or 2. ride it out. maybe they are just being friendly, too. whatevs. if you ride it out, hit it off, and eventually go into a relationship with this person it is easy to maintain because there are general rules to follow in relationships (call at this time, don't call at this time, do this, don't do that).

women (potential friends?) perceive my general friendliness as politeness and usually don't go beyond brief small talk. it is so rare that a woman shows genuine interest in me. plus on the off-chance she did, i would be too worried that i am imposing. there are no clear cut rules of when or how often to call.

i never go out of my way to flirt with anyone. it's just general friendliness (which can then lead to intentional flirting and beyond. the person definitely has to show interest in me, though).

and it is true i do have low self esteem and lack of skills!

 

[coyote]

being friendly (flirtatious?) vs maintaining friendship are two completely different things.

i'm friendly to pretty much everyone on a superficial level (smile/small talk). some guys can perceive this as flirting. they might reciprocate and you can do one of two things: 1. drop the hint that he has the wrong message and withdraw, or 2. ride it out. maybe they are just being friendly, too. whatevs. if you ride it out, hit it off, and eventually go into a relationship with this person it is easy to maintain because there are general rules to follow in relationships (call at this time, don't call at this time, do this, don't do that).

women (potential friends?) perceive my general friendliness as politeness and usually don't go beyond brief small talk. it is so rare that a woman shows genuine interest in me. plus on the off-chance she did, i would be too worried that i am imposing. there are no clear cut rules of when or how often to call.

i never go out of my way to flirt with anyone. it's just general friendliness (which can then lead to intentional flirting and beyond. the person definitely has to show interest in me, though).

and it is true i do have low self esteem and lack of skills!

exactly

i'm generally friendly with everyone

with men - there's a certain limit to how friendly/flirty I am, because I'm heterosexual, and I'm at a loss as to how to establish a "relationship" beyond being an acquaintance with whom I'm friendly with whenever we happen to run into each other

with women - I will continue to get as friendly/flirty as they wish to reciprocate - perhaps ultimately winding up in a sexual relationship/friendship, the two of which are hard for me to separate


going back to your original post - in reference to feeling like the odd man out, because your boyfriend has friends but you don't - I have often found myself in this situation, too. After my ex-wife and I had been together for a short time, she began to think it was weird that I didn't have any friends that I hung out with. She tried many times to "set me up" with other guys to make friends with. It never seemed to work.

 

[dottie]

After my ex-wife and I had been together for a short time, she began to think it was weird that I didn't have any friends that I hung out with. She tried many times to "set me up" with other guys to make friends with. It never seemed to work.

oh wow that must have been awkward for you. then you feel like a sudden responsibility or homework assignment they are dumping on the third person. how thoughtful!

 

[Feathers]

Dottie, are you blonde & gorgeous?
(looking at your pics/resemblance pic?)
/Coyote I know YOU are!! /

Well, that friend of mine is, kinda, and it makes it difficult for her and other women. The fact that she almost completely changes personality when men come into picture (and has sometimes neglected female or non-international friends) doesn't help her much either.
Not sure if you do it consciously, might wanna observe yourself a bit. (The friend said she wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary, but later on when we grew up and she had done some waitressing, admitted that she was using her 'waitress talk' on some guys... (?))
Maybe you could even have someone record you on camera, and then you can look for clues of flirtatious vs 'ordinary behavior' (?) Not sure if it's a factor in your case at all, could check it out.

Body language can be subtle... or not.
For me, it's very easy to establish friendships with other women. Maybe because I'm not that gorgeous (or blonde ) and because I sometimes tease and joke, sometimes at my own expense

Other women can be a bit... intimidated if you look too good... Or may think you are 'stuck up' or something (even if you may be just shy...!) They may think you have other cool & goodlooking friends, a clique of your own, or your adoring swarm of men or whatever...
So you might just invite someone you like to go with you for a cup of tea or something?

It also depends what you can talk to them about (?) Do you have common topics that you both enjoy talking about? Do you express a genuine interest, give compliments, express (genuine!) enthusiasm (no, not you Coyote!!) for some of shared interests or items of clothing/accessories/shoes/new things bought or adventures undertaken etc? (Or their accomplishments, eg exams they did well at etc.) Congratulate for things well done, not just with something bland and general, but try to think of something original?

If you admit some of your flaws that's usually considered as something to not talk about with men, but it can be a bonding experience with women, if they've been going through similar rough times... (of course you don't want to overdo it, but sometimes whining together a bit over something you have in common can be a bonding experience. eg if you're a student over exams or a certain professor etc. Bosses or work - that's a tricky situation, don't recommend it. No, if you're a supermodel and whine about your weight to your overweight co-worker, this won't work probably!!)

So, just a few ideas.

Coyote, men are a mystery to me. I think they bond best over some sports, or bowling or such (?) Are you into any sports? And beer-drinking??
You might also look for 'too much' from men if you expect the same level of intimacy as with a woman (eg talk like this here on the forums) Mostly (or so I've been told) men don't really 'open up' that much in RL (?) Though I don't know if that's true, probably depends on individuals.. Maybe you know wrong men too - such that you don't have much to talk with? Maybe some might also be jealous of your success with women, or afraid for their woman and prefer her to stay away from you (?) Some 'moral'/Christian/good/religious guys could maybe stay away from you for being with too many women too..(?) (Or their women wouldn't let'em hang out for fear of you corrupting them? hm!) And other Don Juans might be afraid you'd steal their women too?
Maybe, those other guys just waited for you to call'em and round up something?

I think many men are 'action buddies' and basically hang out to do manly things (?) (like workout or go to gym or go fishing etc)
Some can be 'drinking buddies' or philosophizing buddies too (usually some wine/beer involved there too-??)
If you're not into that, maybe some AA meetings could really be good (?) (I think they learn how to talk about things instead of drinking there...?) Some are for general topics or 'other audience' too, I think.. or you could ask around..
Or if you're at all poetic, join a poetry club or such? Or Toastmasters maybe?
It has to be something that will be interesting to you and the people there, so it's much easier...

 

[lurknomore]

going back to your original post - in reference to feeling like the odd man out, because your boyfriend has friends but you don't - I have often found myself in this situation, too. After my ex-wife and I had been together for a short time, she began to think it was weird that I didn't have any friends that I hung out with. She tried many times to "set me up" with other guys to make friends with. It never seemed to work.

You know, this got me thinking back to when I was married... there were a few occasions where my (now ex) husband asked me why I didn't have friends (or why didn't I go out and "get" friends ), and it was something I hadn't really put much thought into. I thought that friendships were things that just happened naturally, but it never bothered me much that they almost never seemed to happen for me.

Going off on a tangent, I think that for me, marriage was an avoidant strategy for me, as I went along with the first guy to show interest in me (well, not quite, there was one in high school, but I definitely wasn't ready for anything then). My low self-esteem, combined with my total lack of experience, didn't help, and really, at 19 I actually didn't have much desire for a sexual relationship, it was more curiosity and the feeling that I was being "left behind" and needed to "catch up" to my peers. I convinced myself that I liked him as much as he said he liked me, and that if I went along with it for long enough, I would start having the feelings I was supposed to have (which I had no idea what they would feel like since they had never happened). I think I just liked the idea of companionship, but only later realized (once depression subsided) that I wasn't attracted in any way to my husband, and actually found his personality irritating, and his overwhelming problems (depression, bi-polar, etc) too much to live with.

I married to try to speed up the growing up process, but I really think it stunted it. I spent my early to mid 20s hiding in a marriage and not dealing with any kind of social or "dating" scenes.

In keeping on topic, I think I do flirt, but only with guys that I feel that there is no chance of anything actually coming of it- ie, much younger, much older, married/in relationships, etc. And I'm not intentionally flirting, I'm just more open and friendly because there's less pressure, but a few men have gotten the wrong impression. There was one coworker that is married, and I thought of him as a friend, but I guess his marriage isn't quite "conventional," they seem to be more like good friends, I'm not even sure they live together, but when he started pushing for something beyond friendship, I had to tell him that I wasn't interested in him in that way (and I wasn't- and not just the age thing, I just didn't feel I "clicked" with him personality wise). Recently, another coworker (who is in a relationship of long standing- but again maybe it's not "traditional" anymore) started coming on a little too strong, and I kind of backed away for a while after that. I'd still call both of them sort of friends, but it does make things awkward.

The thing is, I don't get attention from guys around my age (or it's extremely rare), and if there is a guy (or guys) that I feel sort of attracted to, I'm way too nervous to even have regular conversations with them... so they don't even know I exist.

And I feel that I get along with men better than I do women, but maybe I don't know how to "just" be friends (or give them the message that that's all I want), and I don't feel I relate that well with other women- I don't even feel like a woman, I'm nothing like most of the women I come into contact with, maybe I feel inferior or less attractive, or I just don't want to feel like I'm "competing" with them, so I avoid them.

Bottom line- neither friendships nor dating happen for me.

 

[Feathers]

lurknomore, I can totally relate to your experience of being more open & friendly with guys much older and much younger - they seem 'safer', don't they?
ehh, you didn't miss that much in your twenties, you can still make up much of that.. people say '30s are the new 20's' anyway (??) Many people on this forum (or other single people elsewhere are probably jealous over your 'married life' experience anyway!! And would probably prefer that to just standing around hoping a guy would notice them etc.)

Thought I'd paste these links for some of you out there too: How To Make Friends And Get A Social Life
(found this site on this forum initially, in an old thread!) If you haven't read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends & Influence People, do! Recommended! For me, Louise Hay: You Can Heal Your Life was pretty helpful too.. (for self-acceptance etc)

There's more if you google 'how to make friends' and yes I did feel stupid googling 'how to maintain friends' too, but actually there are some cool tips out there! eg How to Maintain a Friendship - wikiHow

I think that sometimes it's not easy to start life again after divorce or something like that.. And yup some people can misunderstand things.. or just 'try their luck'... (some kinda 'offers'/hints from 'taken' men can be kinda scary yup! sometimes it's just joking and that's the only way they know how to talk to women, yup..)
It's more difficult to be single later on in life though, especially at an age when most others are 'taken' and before other people get divorced too.. (sorry if this seems cynical.. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere and saw it was kinda true, at least partially..) Have you seen the 'Quirkyalone' movement and manifesto? They even have had parties..?

 

[JamesSmith]

My life has been the opposite of dottie's, I've always been able to connect much better with men and have had way more friends (all of them male) than g/fs. In fact, I've only had one g/f relationship b4 that didn't even last 2 months. I felt more pressure when I had my g/f than when I was around her, or even when i wasn't around her. I felt like I had to please her more and impress her more than my friends. It felt like I had to try more with her, like i had to dedicate more of my life to her. I guess that's a good thing about a friend, it's a lot harder to "break-up," and in most cases breaking up with a friend doesn't happen. If they leave town or something they are still considered a friend. Most intimate relationships end in a break-up. Intimate relationships may be more passionate than friendship, but they usually end in disaster unlike friendships that usually don't really end at all.

 

[agoraphobickatie]

maybe you should make your own rules as far as friends go? ha

i definitely get what you're feeling about the guilt stuff and then the inferiority.. i get that with my boyfriend because of my anxiety/agoraphobia... i do have friends, but my anxiety really limits what i do.. it sucks because my boyfriend and i have some of the same friends, and when they go out of town to party at another friends place, i'm too scared to go.. so he feels guilty for going without me, but i don't want to keep him or i'll be the guilty one, and then i just feel like a sh!tty girlfriend because i can't do all the fun things with our friends with him....

blah.. i didn't help you a bit, but i feel your pain on some level, lol

 

[Feathers]

Yeah, I can totally relate to what James wrote: I had way more girl friends than guy friends/boyfriends (and sometimes it was a bit murky as to what exactly we were, kinda like exploration territory ). I've had quite some admirers (still way less than my flirtatious friend/s) in comparison, but I kinda tended to stay shy away from them... (sometimes for very stupid reasons, or because we were both shy, or because I thought we were not really compatible or such).

I always thought you had to 'decide' what you want to be with a guy: a friend or more than that, and then act accordingly, and it was very frustrating sometimes - like, how can you 'decide' if you don't know the person that well?

Then (after many many years!) I came to a similar conclusion like Dottie: that if you're just friendly and polite, some guys will interpret it as 'interested'. If you spend 30 minutes talking/chatting with them, they may think you've been hitting on them! (experience outside this forum!)

For being friends with girls, you generally need to show a lot more emotion & interest. For example on the forums, I always thought Dottie & lurknomore & Katie were cool, they never expressed much interest in becoming friends, so I thought they were just not interested or a bit 'above me' (in a more popular/social/fancy clique ) and have enough friends of their own. I'd never mention it if it weren't for this thread. Thought it was just as well. Different people click with different people, and that's allright. Someone who has enough friends from before can probably be allright with their previous circle of friends...
That's why at the dorm/study time, most friends were 'newcomers' from different parts of the country.. They/we were all more open because they/we needed new friends anyway..
So if someone has recently moved to your town/new at work or at the gym etc, they may be more open to friendship cause they probably don't know many people there...

In RL, it's a bit like this forum: you 'click' with some people, if you have an interesting conversation or something... I realize on introspection that most of my friendships were pretty 'passive' (the other girl said 'Hey Let's go for a cup of tea', and we did, or 'brought together by circumstances' - in a dorm flat or course/study or travel or such, or they were friends of friends/neighbours initially...)

Sometimes you can take it from 'acquaintance' to 'friend' by borrowing something, eg if you like their music taste or films or books... (usually it's spontaneous, 'Wow, you've got this book - can I borrow it after you read it?' or something like that?)

You often just need one friend to start with, then you can meet their friends too, etc. Or you are seen talking and laughing with them, and other people immediately see you as more interesting and fun..

Katie, WOW you have a proper boyfriend now!! Congratulations!!
I'm pretty sure you'll manage to combat this remains of the phobia too, you've come so far!! /dances the happy dance/

 

[Feathers]

Yeah, I can totally relate to what James wrote: I had way more girl friends than guy friends/boyfriends (and sometimes it was a bit murky as to what exactly we were, kinda like exploration territory ). I've had quite some admirers (still way less than my flirtatious friend/s) in comparison, but I kinda tended to stay shy away from them... (sometimes for very stupid reasons, or because we were both shy, or because I thought we were not really compatible or such).

I always thought you had to 'decide' what you want to be with a guy: a friend or more than that, and then act accordingly, and it was very frustrating sometimes - like, how can you 'decide' if you don't know the person that well?

Then (after many many years!) I came to a similar conclusion like Dottie: that if you're just friendly and polite, some guys will interpret it as 'interested'. If you spend 30 minutes talking/chatting with them, they may think you've been hitting on them! (experience outside this forum!)

For being friends with girls, you generally need to show a lot more emotion & interest. For example on the forums, I always thought Dottie & lurknomore & Katie were cool, they never expressed much interest in becoming friends, so I thought they were just not interested or a bit 'above me' (in a more popular/social/fancy clique ) and have enough friends of their own. I'd never mention it if it weren't for this thread. Thought it was just as well. Different people click with different people, and that's allright. Someone who has enough friends from before can probably be allright with their previous circle of friends...

That's why at the dorm/study time, most friends were 'newcomers' from different parts of the country.. They/we were all more open because they/we needed new friends anyway..
So if someone has recently moved to your town/new at work or at the gym etc, they may be more open to friendship cause they probably don't know many people there...

In RL, it's a bit like this forum: you 'click' with some people, if you have an interesting conversation or something... I realize on introspection that most of my friendships were pretty 'passive' (the other girl said 'Hey Let's go for a cup of tea', and we did, or 'brought together by circumstances' - in a dorm flat or course/study or travel or such, or they were friends of friends/neighbours initially...)

Sometimes you can take it from 'acquaintance' to 'friend' by borrowing something, eg if you like their music taste or films or books... (usually it's spontaneous, 'Wow, you've got this book - can/could I borrow it after you read it?' or something like that? Depends on how you got along before. If you never said a word, this may be seen as odd, if you've exchanged friendly talk or small talk a few times, maybe you can do something like this...?)

You often just need one friend to start with, then you can meet their friends too, etc. Or you are seen talking and laughing with them, and other people immediately see you as more interesting and fun..

Katie, WOW you have a proper boyfriend now!! Congratulations!!
I'm pretty sure you'll manage to combat this remains of the phobia too, you've come so far!! /dances the happy dance/