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cLavain

Well-known member
romeno82 said:
i think that the bible has NOTHING to do with god! If i read the bible i think that a sane mind cant just beliefe what they say. Besides it was written for the people for 2000 years ago. Language changes in 100 years alot not to speak in 2000. Ther is a lot of simbolism that today has no longer a meaning. Not to speak about chrstian education who tries to manipulate a young spirit in beeing all the time nice. If you cant be pissed off sometimes it takes to frustration which take to anger, depression, fear and so forth. What christian education really tries to do is to eliminate a vital function of you: discharging the negative energy. What is very very very dangerous for your mind.

READ THIS: A true sane spirit is gently and friendly in its natural state and when it comes to be angry he is. But by far the most of the time he is friendly and happy. Believe me


So throw the bible in the closet and burn pope´s kalendar and get back to innocence of the spirit
Careful there, heretic! What do you mean, coming here all rational and thinking for yourself? :twisted:

Seriously, I've been trying several times to get the Christians to provide evidence connecting the Bible with a hypotethical god, but, let's face it, it ain't gonna happen. Disturbingly, this total lack of proof doesn't seem to worry the faithful ones.
 

Septor

Well-known member
cLavain said:
romeno82 said:
i think that the bible has NOTHING to do with god! If i read the bible i think that a sane mind cant just beliefe what they say. Besides it was written for the people for 2000 years ago. Language changes in 100 years alot not to speak in 2000. Ther is a lot of simbolism that today has no longer a meaning. Not to speak about chrstian education who tries to manipulate a young spirit in beeing all the time nice. If you cant be pissed off sometimes it takes to frustration which take to anger, depression, fear and so forth. What christian education really tries to do is to eliminate a vital function of you: discharging the negative energy. What is very very very dangerous for your mind.

READ THIS: A true sane spirit is gently and friendly in its natural state and when it comes to be angry he is. But by far the most of the time he is friendly and happy. Believe me


So throw the bible in the closet and burn pope´s kalendar and get back to innocence of the spirit
Careful there, heretic! What do you mean, coming here all rational and thinking for yourself? :twisted:

Seriously, I've been trying several times to get the Christians to provide evidence connecting the Bible with a hypotethical god, but, let's face it, it ain't gonna happen. Disturbingly, this total lack of proof doesn't seem to worry the faithful ones.

There no such thing as as concrete evidences when it come to religion.One of the corner stone of religion is faith.Faith is not knowing the whole picture.If there was concrete evidences no one would be debating it.Everyone running around looking for all the answer to thing there are no answer to.Somethings there are no answer to.That's not to say that they are right though.

Sense we are on the subject of evidence were is your irrefutably evidence that they are wrong?

This will be interesting. :lol: :twisted:
 

Zipper

Well-known member
If you're going to have faith in something, have faith that God punishes only to amend and the operation of divine judgment is calculated to transfigure and not to destroy -- have faith that the Bible is not true. This is a level of faith which is quite beyond the Christian assumptions that God wrote the Bible and intends to destroy those who don't worship him.

Let's have a little faith, people! Have faith that God will kindle the earth and make death turn into life all over the planet. That wrongs will be righted and that joy shall come to all the children of men in the eternal world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, Agnostic or Atheist.

That is a faith to live and die by. Read Boethius "Consolation of Philosophy" written by a man about to be executed who realized that there was no time left for his project to translate Plato's works and instead wrote the Consolation as a "Cliff's Notes" summary of what had been discovered: A good vibe emanates from God.
 

cLavain

Well-known member
Septor said:
Sense we are on the subject of evidence were is your irrefutably evidence that they are wrong?
You'd be well adviced to read up on a little basic logic. You see, just because you cannot disprove something does not mean you should believe it!! I cannot stress that enough.

We cannot disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster either, but who in their right mind would believe in it's existence? In fact - and I know this is hard to swallow after centuries of Christian indoctrination and mass media that numbs critical thinking - you won't find a single shred of evidence supporting Christianity either.

The point is that there is no good reason to believe in one specific religion, yet "people prefer to believe what they prefer to be true". As the continued popularity of astrology, homeopathy, feng shui, ESP, etc, prove: Some people will believe just about anything if it makes them feel better, actual evidence be damned!

Was that interesting enough for you? :)
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Why Does Hell Exist?
Currently there is a good deal of discussion among Christians about the morality of hell: it is said that a good God would not condemn people to an eternity of torture. However that has been the belief of most Christians through most of Christian history. It seems to be supported by the Biblical account. The alternative seems about as bad: that God will force himself on people who do not want him.

Note that it is not necessary to say that God imposes hell as punishment. It may be the automatic (indeed logically unavoidable) consequence of rejecting God. It is not clear that God makes it intentionally unpleasant. It may be the nature of the people who are there, and the fact that they are finally given what they want: freedom from God.

Many criticisms of judgement suggest that it is arrogant to say that Christian ideas are true and others are false. "How can you be so arrogant to believe that Christians will go to heaven and everyone else will go to hell." As we will see below, most Christians don't believe this. However the idea that this is arrogant seems odd. We do not criticize mathematics teachers for saying that 2 + 2 is always 4, and that believing sincerely in 5 is not acceptable. Either there is a God or there isn't. Either Christ died to save us or he didn't. If he did, it's hard to see how it can be arrogant to say so. If he didn't, then Christians are wrong, but not arrogant.

I would say that ultimately hell is a result of the "hardness" of created reality. Let me try to explain: Christianity believes that the universe has a real existence, and that it is distinct from God. (This is a specific position, which not all religions and philosophies accept. For some, there isn't a real distinction between God and the universe.) In order to provide us with a region in which we can make our own decisions and take our own actions, God set up a universe that operates under dependable laws. Possibly there are other ways he could have worked. But we don't know of any other way to set things up so that we have real lives of our own.

The existence of a real universe with dependable laws has consequences. One of those consequences is the fact that people can have incorrect ideas. If they misunderstand the way the universe works, damage may result. Most of us understand this in the realm of science and engineering. There is no reason that theology should be different. If there weren't any distinction between truth and falsehood, nor any consequences to error, we would be living in an amorphous mess (the metaphysical equivalent of "gray goo"). There would be no way to live sensibly.

The standard Christian position is that salvation is only available through Christ. This isn't because God is biased towards Christians. Rather, it's a consequence of the way the universe works. Heaven is by definition eternal life with God. But Christ is God's way of establishing relationships between human beings and himself. He is the divine logos, the agent of creation. It is inherently impossible to be with God without being in Christ. If a human being somehow managed to be in God's presence bypassing Christ, that person would be unmade.

The only alternatives I can see to hell are for God to arrange for everyone to accept Christ, or for him to destroy everyone who does not. As you'll see below, each of these alternatives has its supporters. However most Christians believe that if everyone ends up choosing God, human existence is a sham: God loaded the dice to such an extent that there were no real human decisions. Most Christians also believe that a part of us is immortal. For God to destroy it would be an interference in the created order that would seriously violate its integrity.

Before judging these issues, I'd ask you to look at some additional considerations.

Is Hell Unfair?
The standard Christian position is that anyone who rejects Christ will end up in hell. Does this mean that only Christians can be saved? The Catholic church and many Protestant churches don't think so. They believe it is possible that Christ can come to someone in an inward and spiritual way, even if they've never heard of Christ. Thus someone can be an "anonymous Christian." That is, they can know Christ spiritually without realizing it it Christ.

Most Christians also believe that God's judgement will take into account the sorts of opportunities a person had to learn the truth. A person who has never heard the Gospel can't be said to have rejected Christ. An even worse situation occurs when Christians have persecuted other groups. A person who sees Christ as a persecutor has hardly had a real exposure to the Gospel.

[Historical note: It's worth noting that two major classical Protestant writers thought it was possible for non-Christians to be saved: Zwingli and Wesley. Calvin did not.]

Alternatives to Hell?
There is a substantial minority view, which says that God will find some way to reach everyone. This is called "universalism". A few 20th Cent thinkers have also suggested that those who are not destined for heaven are simply destroyed. This is called "annihilationism".

Most Christians think that both of these alternative views are ruled out by teachings in the Bible. Jesus himself speaks of judgement, and of "Gehenna" and "the outer darkness".

While most Christians reject universalism and annihilationism as doctrines, many orthodox Christians hold positions that are very close. Let's look at them briefly:

There is no statement in the Bible about how many will be damned. When someone asks Jesus this, he deflects the question. He does say that the way to salvation is narrow, and that many follow the road to destruction. However we can still hope that in the end God will deflect those on the easy road to destruction. I believe universalism as a doctrine is unorthodox, but hope for all is possible.

A number of orthodox 20th Century writers point out that those who are in hell are not the same kind of people as those in heaven. Human beings are designed to live with God. In heaven our humanity is perfected. Hell is not described in any detail in the Bible. The descriptions that most people hear are based on speculative fiction, such as Dante's. However if humanity is created to be with God, then it is reasonable to believe that those who are finally separated from God in hell are less than fully human. Several writers refer to them as equivalent to "ashes", the remnants of what used to be a human life. Thus we may not have two groups of people living next to each other, with the saved watching the damned living in torture. Hell, whatever it is, has less reality than heaven. This is suggested by Jesus' most common way of referring to it. He calls it Gehenna. This was the garbage pit outside of Jerusalem, although the term also was used in discussions of the last judgement.

Could Hitler end up in Heaven?
Heaven and hell are not a matter of totaling up good deeds and bad deeds and seeing which predominates. From the Christian perspective, if it comes to merit, no one merits heaven, and we've all done enough bad for hell to be justified. However God doesn't want anyone to end up in hell. Anyone who depends upon him for rescue will be saved from hell.

There are several questions that are asked so commonly that I think they're work looking at here. Here are two examples:

Could Hitler end up in heaven if he repented at the last minute?
It seems unfair for God to save people just because they are Christians. There are lots of rotten Christians and lots of good non-Christians.
I'm going to try to deal with that whole class of questions here. Note that in doing so I'm going to make my own opinions a bit more obvious than I do elsewhere in these essays. I am quite sure that there are answers from Catholic and Orthodox perspectives, but I'm not in a position to argue convincingly from those viewpoints.
First, the Bible doesn't give us precise information as to who will end up in heaven or hell. We are warned particularly not to judge other people (except to the extent that we have specific responsibilities for church discipline or as officials involved with the legal system). This means that discussing specific people such as Hitler is dangerous. We don't know what is going on with individuals. Hitler looks particularly evil. But someone completely unremarkable may be just as evil, but may not have had enough political power to have the terrible effect that Hitler did. Perhaps Hitler was completely insane, and not responsible for his actions. (I seriously doubt it, but we don't know for sure what was going on in his heart.)

However more important, I need to warn you that heaven isn't a reward for being good. The basic Protestant model for salvation is as follows:

*God chooses us
*We respond with faith, which basically means that we rely on God for salvation
*God forgives us, and simultaneously starts renewing us and getting rid of our sin

There is certainly a connection between faith and being good: Faith is our side of the bond that connects us to God. God will use that connection to regenerate us and get rid of our sin. The process isn't finished in this life, but it certainly is started. Christians should be better than if they weren't Christians. Jesus said that you will know his followers by the fruit that they bear.

It would be nice if we could say that the best half (or whatever) of mankind are Christians and the worst half are non-Christians. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it isn't going to be quite that neat. Some people become Christians late in their life, and so the process has only started when they die. Some Christians may be in more dangerous positions than non-Christians. Some Christians may have been born with really bad tempers, etc, which makes them look more evil than they actually are.

So I'd say that there should be real evidence of regeneration operating in the lives of Christians, but you shouldn't expect that all the people who look good are Christians and all those who look bad are non-Christians.

Here's one thing to think about: What happens to someone who is relatively good in this life, but who does not have faith? Unfortunately, he may end up in hell. In theory this person could be the best person who ever lived (except Jesus, who was without sin). The problem is that by not having faith, they do not have the connection through which God will take care of their remaining sin. Even though there aren't very many visible problems, they (and the underlying addiction to sin of which they are symptoms) can't be dealt with. Thus this person can't be made fit for heaven.

Now the obvious response to this is: so why shouldn't people just go ahead and be evil, if heaven isn't based on being good? While heaven isn't a reward for reaching a certain quota of good acts, you won't get in unless you have a relationship with God through which you can be renewed. Someone who says "let me be evil for my whole life, and repent at the last minute" almost certainly isn't going to be capable of repenting in any way that does him any good. In having that intention, he has already rejected the kind of faith that is needed for salvation.

Strictly speaking, heaven isn't even a reward for having faith. It's not that God is rewarding you for faith and punishing you for not having faith. Rather, it's that God uses a certain kind of relationship in order to make you fit for heaven. Faith is a key part of that relationship. If you're sloppy about building a bridge it may fall down. Nature isn't consciously punishing you. It's just the way the universe is built. In my view, one of the spiritual laws of the universe is that in order to end up in heaven, you have to have justifying faith (not just intellectual belief in the Trinity -- justifying faith means that you rely on and commit yourself to God as your savior).

http://geneva.rutgers.edu/src/christianity/heavenhell.html
 

nedkelly

Well-known member
Moderator's..this thread needs to be put to bed. It's getting ridiculus
Debate for debate's sake can be okay, but religous topics end up absoulutely nowhere. Everyone's got to have the last say, and end up attacking each other. I thought this site was to help people with Social Phobia.
I know all topics won't be, but these religous threads go over the top sometimes.
I guess i don't have to read it...true :oops:
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Zosima: I have explained to you why I refer to those web-sites earlier. And if you think it is because I can't think on my own you are wrong. If you think it's easy for me to find those english web-pages which for me at least explains some of the questions you are asking, you're wrong again. I have also told you before, I do not have all the answers.

I have told you so many times that we will not agree in this. I see you keep trying to convince me that I am wrong and that you believe is the only right choice. So it seems anyway... I can tell you that I was visiting a web-site for atheists and I read what your opinions are about Christians and religions. So if you are still trying to enlighten me that having a Christian view in life are so cruel and evil, I would advice you to just let it go. Like I have said, I know I have Jesus in my heart and nothing you can say can convince me otherwise. Maybe it makes no sense to you, but to me it does! I would also like to say that the last article explains a lot.
And if you have further questions about it you could read more if you click on the link, or maybe the author could explain the questions you have…But I have a suspicion that ain’t gonna happen…
 

Remus

Moderator
Staff member
nedkelly said:
Moderator's..this thread needs to be put to bed. It's getting ridiculus
Debate for debate's sake can be okay, but religous topics end up absoulutely nowhere. Everyone's got to have the last say, and end up attacking each other. I thought this site was to help people with Social Phobia.
I know all topics won't be, but these religous threads go over the top sometimes.
I guess i don't have to read it...true :oops:

I couldnt agree more

I'm sick of having to moderate this thread and its not leading anywhere apart from building animosity between members.

anyone else feel the same?
 
I agree, everyone is entitled to their religious opinion, and should not feel they have to defend it or force anyone else to think the way that they do. Be happy with your own choices.

I really don't see what there is left to say on this subject at all? Surely this topic has been discussed to death now?
 
Zosima said:
crazyfairyx said:
Horatio said:
anything would be preferable to spending eternity in heaven surrounded by christians
I couldn't agree more!! :lol:
Some of the Christians were offended by that.

That was a joke, if someone wants to be offended by that, then they should speak to me, or whomever they decided caused the offence.

This thread has turned into a ridiculous battle where neither side will ever win. No, people do not have to read this thread, but this is not a debate forum. If you all want to waste your time arguing over this, then that's your decision, I'm just not convinced this is the right place for it.
 

Remus

Moderator
Staff member
Zosima said:
Remus said:
I'm sick of having to moderate this thread and its not leading anywhere apart from building animosity between members.
I don't know what this "animosity" is you are refering to - I feel that I get on well with those who debate with me.

Oh really?

you should read my PM inbox
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Puh, I'm relieved that somebody else than me decided to step in and try to call off this debate. I tried to stop it and encourage people to rather continue the discussion on a religious forum in page 4 and again at p.6 of this thread. But as the debate continued I felt I had to defend myself, but I guess I have to put some of the blame on myself because this whole thread started because I misunderstood Zippers question from the other thread. If I knew that it would start such an extensive debate, I would never have expressed my view in the first place. :(

Zosima: I'm sorry for my mistake as implying you for being an atheist. I guess it was because you referred to atheists all the time. I was planning to remove yours...to ...their (opinions), but I forgot... :oops:

You said you feel you get along well with those who debate with you...Well that is statement I'm not quite familiar with. :roll:
However I will forgive you even if you're not sorry... :wink:

Well, I cross my fingers and hope this discussion is finally over!!! :!:
 
Zosima said:
crazyfairyx said:
That was a joke, if someone wants to be offended by that, then they should speak to me, or whomever they decided caused the offence.
Ah, I see. So it's up to other people whether they take offence at what you write; I suppose if you went into a room full of Jews, & started making Holocaust jokes, it would be their faults if they took offence.- Whereas if people take offence at what I write, it is entirely my fault (?)!

That is a seriously nauseating thing to say! I don't see how you can make any connection between what I said and what you said about Jews and the Holocaust. There is a huge difference between a small joke from someone who used to be a Christian, and making jokes about the Holocaust. You are creating pages and pages of animosity, unrelentingly, and you're also taking it onto threads that are completely unrelated to religion. The majority of your posts are to do with religion, which makes me wonder if either you would be better suited on a debate forum, or if all you want is a forum to use as an ego trip, because you think people with SA are too weak to stand up for themselves.

Even the person you're debating with has called it a day, who are you battling other than yourself? Maybe the person you are trying to convince is you.
 
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