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Septor

Well-known member
What would you consider reasonable Christian Zosima?What do they have to believe in to be reasonable?I have not seen all the Christian that you say that come across as crackpots on here but maybe im not looking hard enough.

You get what you give.I personally think that people that make statement like equating Christian with a virus are as bad as the the extreme Christian that they claim to dislike.Just a different side of the same coin.There's intolerance on both sides of the debate.

For some people,you could say it is a mental disorder.It was for my father.But that can be side of any thing,of any activity.Some people just take things to far.Some people are just unbalance.You can't condemn the whole group for that.

What I don't understand and like someone else said earlier what does it matter.You believe what you believe in and they believe what they believe and leave it at that.If that's what they want to believe in let them they are not hurting anyone in believing it and you believe what you want to believe in but I suppose religion is one of these thing that people need to debate over and over again.Part of the human condition I guess. :(
 

Henry

Active member
I am not a christian because I have not seen any good evidence of christianity. I mean, you want me to just believe. Well, WHY should I believe you? Why not Islam, or Hinduism, or anything else? You are not giving me anything to work with.

BTW this is only for those who are trying to convert people to christianity, like the author of this thread, not those who have their own private beliefs and dont convert others.
 

Lavinia84

Well-known member
[quote="LA-girl I'm sorry these questions are way too complicated for me to answer. I have to admit I don't even understand much. (I'm Norwegian so maybe that has something to to with it. If this is a puzzle, my answer would be a muslim? Is that correct?[/quote]

Sorry I didn't mean it to be a puzzle.
I wanted to know if you thought people with those beliefs were or were not Christians?
I would say that they were. But by your definition they are not.
To my way of understanding a Christian is by definition a follower of the Christ, who we believe is Jesus. Did you know there is a sect called the Mandeans who belive that John he Baptist is the Messiah, so technically they can call themselves Christian too.
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
In response to Jinxed: (Jinxed in blue) (Me in red)

Anyway, basically the last site said when you trust him... AND repented...you will be saved.

Yes, the first site I have referred to also include repentance. But I guess you and I see repentance in different ways.

God wants ALL people to repent; that is, change their minds. God wants us to change our mind about how we view our sins. Most people try to rationalize and justify their sins. God wants us to “confess” or “admit” to Him alone that we are hell-deserving sinners. God also wants us to change our minds concerning any unbelief we may have had in the Lord Jesus Christ. We must turn to Christ in faith and believe on Him alone for the forgiveness of sins. This is repentance—a changing of the mind concerning our sin and of the Lord Jesus Christ. Simply confess your sins to Christ and ask Him to come into your heart as Savior.

As for evangelist John Rice I want to add a quote:

HOW TO GET THE CHANGE OF HEART

This simple way of being saved by faith seems so easy, and it is. Some sinner may say, "But I thought one must have a change of heart." So you must, dear sinner, but that is God's part. Jesus was talking to Nicodemus when He said, "Ye must be born again," and in the same chapter He tells Nicodemus how to get the new birth.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."--John 3:16.

The change in your heart, sinner, is God's part and you may be sure He will attend to that. Your part is to simply believe in Him. Whatever else is necessary in your eternal salvation, the Lord attends to when you trust in Him, or believe in Him.

Again from John Rice:
Many, many Scriptures repeat again and again that there is no salvation through human goodness.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."--Titus 3:5.

"FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF

GOD: NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST."--Eph. 2:8, 9.

Although I know even if you were or are a really bad person but you decided to repent and put the effort, you will be saved, whereas even if you were a better person but didn't repent, you won't be saved.
Yes, we agree in this

It would be helpful to ask real Christians who know this well
I believe that the three authors (John Rice as a knowledged evangelist) who I have referred to happen to be real Christians. Also many in my family are christians so I discuss with them as well. They have said for many years what I am saying now
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Henry wrote:
I am not a christian because I have not seen any good evidence of christianity. I mean, you want me to just believe. Well, WHY should I believe you? Why not Islam, or Hinduism, or anything else? You are not giving me anything to work with.

BTW this is only for those who are trying to convert people to christianity, like the author of this thread, not those who have their own private beliefs and dont convert others.


Jinxed wrote:

I think the author, LA-girl, as said bold red on this page, her intentions weren't to force others to believe what she believes, but just telling what she believes and why she's still against it by showing other sites to, for example, me.

Thank you Jinxed! You got the message, Henry obviously did not. The reason why i keep posting my views here is because people have arguments and questions, and my replies are just an effort to answer and explain my views. I totally respect that others come in here with their views, of course! I have said this many many times, on the other thread "afraid of hell".

For me this whole debate was started as an intention for me to help Zipper....,

(ERGO MY INTENTIONS WERE NOT TO FORCE MY BELIEF ON ANYONE!!!!!)

....because of his fear of entering hell. Obviously Zipper was aware of the message I had regarding what it means to be saved. Later I realized through later replies from him that he had already made up his mind about this.

In stead my reply started an extensive debate between christians and non-christians and also between christians. All this because we have different views about this. I have my view and others have other views. Although i am convinced about what i am writing is true I can never prove that my view is the only truth and neither can you.
I think this whole debate has, for me at least, continued long enough. Religion is a subject that can be continued until the end of days. And I guess nobody will be able to have 100 % evidence for their beliefs and theories while we are still living on this earth... We will never agree anyway! Whomever wants to continue this debate is free to do so. Maybe there are a few remaining questions for me to answer, but for me this debate is soon to be over..

Also since this in fact is a forum for SA in particular, it would maybe be better to continue the debate on another forum (religious) for those who are interested...?

 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Zosima wrote:

I have met at least one "reasonable" Christian here, but the significant majority of Christians who have posted on this site have come across to me as being crackpots. I don't mean to offend, but someone earlier equated Christianity with a virus, & to me it seems to be like a mental disorder or mental illness in some people.

So you are calling me a crackpot and saying that my belief seems to be like a mental disorder?

You say I am a crackpot because I beileve christianity is believing in Jesus Christs own words?

Zosima wrote further down: (My max. am. of 7 post are reached, so I answer here...) :wink:
Presumably you don't believe that Jesus Christ wrote every word of the Bible, do you ??! - How many words of the Bible do you think were personally written by Jesus ?!

No, I have never said that the bible was written by Jesus, I am just saying that my view on Christian salvation is in addition to being mentioned by different apostels, also confirmed by Jesus:

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)

Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)

Jesus said "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)


I believe:
Believing in Jesus means:
Admitting that you are a sinner, and that you need Jesus in your life to erase your sins and get saved. And then trust in him that he will come into your heart and change it so that you will want to follow his advice and do good things.


Maybe you have not read everything I wrote?

I repeat what John Rice says which I mean sums up what I have been trying to say my view on Christianity and salvation is:

"There is one simple step between you and Jesus. When you trust Him, everything else is settled, and you have repented, you have come to Christ, you have received Him, you have done everything necessary to be saved.Take the answer in Acts 16:31 at face value: "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED"! In dozens of Scriptures all through the Bible salvation is promised to those that believe. Read carefully the following Scriptures and see that again and again, many, many times, God has promised all any poor sinner would ever need when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ"

http://www.biblebelievers.net/SalvationDoctrine/kjcsaved.htm

If you still think I am a crackpot because I believe this is what Christianity is all about, then so be it. That is your opinion.

By the way you keep saying that you are in general a nice and kind person. Well, I have to say calling people crackpots and implying they must have mental disorders because they have a belief is not what I would consider very nice.


As for Zipper I have already explained what my intentions for bringing this up in the first place was:
Zipper I have already told you that I got you wrong in the opening. My intentions were only to try and help you, (honestly) but in later posts I found out that you already knew all I wrote to you. If I knew this or realized this from the start I would never replied to you in the first place. Later I started my own thread about "Christian people", but unfortunately many posts have still ended in this thread... But when someone directs their questions dirctly to me in this thread I feel I have to answer them here as well.... I apologize that I did not understand your consern from the start.
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Henry wrote:

I mean, you want me to just believe. Well, WHY should I believe you?

Like I said my first intentions were to to zelp Zipper.... This thread started because somebody said they would rather spend eternity in hell than in heaven among Christians. So I had a comment on that. The reason why I have been repeating my views and argumentet on them was because there have been questions and comments which I wanted to respond to. Most of my quotes from other web-sites has been directed to Jinxed because we have a disagreement of what christian salvation means.This was not started as an attempt to try and convert people into Christianity.So if you or someone else wants me to convince you that this is the only truth you have to go somewhere else.I can not tell you to believe this, I can just say that I do.
(I have only told you my views on what the christian salvation is about). You have to figure out for yourself if you want to find out more and believe yourself or reject it.
The choice is yours and yours only.


If you really want to explore out if Christianity is something for you Henry or anyone else in here for that matter I found a web-site which might give you some answers to your questions. I have only read parts of the articles in here, so if you want to explore this site and have questions regarding the things you read you can direct your answers to the people responsible on this web-site:
EVERYSTUDENT.COM

"WHY PICK THE GOD OF THE BIBLE"
http://www.everystudent.com/features/whypick.html
 

Lavinia84

Well-known member
Thank you for the long pasage about the penitant criminal LA-girl.

However it didn't in fact answer my question. I think this has to do with certain assumptions made generally by Christians. It seems that Chrsitians think that whatever a priest, pastor, sunday school teacher etc says is THE TRUTH, when in fact it is only ever their interpretation.

Christians also seem to have this idea that there was only one Christian church up until the reformation, when various denominations started to emerge. There has never, ever been agreement on what makes a Christian.

Let me give you a little bit of history:

First, theivery was not a capitol crime in the Roman Empire, no one would receive the death penalty for it. Ergo the biblical account is wrong.
The only crime punishable by death (in particular crucifixion) was treason against Rome(eg The Spartacus Revolt). This is why Jesus had to be taken to Pilate, only he could pass a death sentence, and it had to be for inciting the people against Rome. Which is also why he was asked if he was the King of the Jews, which would imply he meant to replace the Romans as the ruler. It is far more likely that the two condemned men were convicted of treason, and had attempted to rebel from the Romans. This would explain why the penitant man would know Jesus was innocent of the same crime they were guilty of.

As for one united Christian Church? It never existed. From the beginning there were sects like the Mandeans, who held what would now be considered heretical views. There is this assumption that all doctrines and beliefs were taught by the Bible or apostles, whereas many came from later people. Did you know that when Constantine coverted the Empire to Christianity in 312 it was not Othodox (Catholic) Christianity but Arianism, which believes that Jesus was a creation made by God. They believed Jesus and God were of one substance, but not of one being. This is currently believed by Mormons. What became Orthodox didn't become mainstream for another few hundred years. Another very popular group were the Gnostics. They belived that the creater of this world was not the Almighty God, but a fallen lesser god, called the Demiurge and who is the equivalent of Satan.

Interesting is the new find of the Gospel of Judas. It is dated to around 300AD making it one of the oldest copies of a Gospel ever found. Another thing many Christians seem not to know is that there are a number of noncanonical Gospels attributed to Thomas, James, Barnabas, Peter and Mary Magdalene. As well as many epistles and apocalypses.

I could go on, so ask if you want to know more....
 

Mary

Well-known member
Hello everyone, I just wanted to let people know especially La-girl about a site I like where you can watch pastor Joel Osteen preach. If you are interested please check it out, if not then don't! This is just for people who are interested or curious or even just want to go to church w/out having to leave the house. Which I understand. So that is all.
www.joelosteen.com
 

Septor

Well-known member
Zosima said:
A "reasonable" Christian is obviously a loose term, but an "unreasonable" Christian might, for example, blindly accept everything which is written in the Bible, however loopy & harmful some of it is.

Like you said that's a very loose term.What is a crackpot?What is the loopy and harmful stuff you are are talking of?The bible can be can be interpretive in many different ways and yes I can think of a lot of things people could read in to that could be harmful.That's in the eye of the beholder but I have not seen any of that way out there thinking on this forum.

Zosima said:
You are not looking hard enough.

Maybe i'm not looking hard enough or maybe we have different opinion on what constitutes a crackpot Christian.

Zosima said:
I'm not condemning all Christians, as I said to me it seems to be like a mental disorder or mental illness in some people
Zosima said:
I'm just surprised because I thought the crackpots were in the minority, & judging by this forum they seem to be the majority.

I agree with you there.For some people it is like a mental illness but in my opinion you are casting a awfully wide net on what Christians you consider to have this mental illness.I still don't see where all these crackpot Christians are that make up the majority here but like I said before I guess we have different opinion on what constitutes a crackpot Christian.

Zosima said:
I'm not having a go at you, but I think that statement is naive; do you really think that no-one is hurt by "crackpot" Christianity ?! - Ask Zipper.

You miss understand what I was saying.I was talking about Christians in general.I was not talking about the the crack pot ones as you like to put.Believe me I have first hand experience with crazy hard fundamentalist Christians and yes people are hurt by them.I never said otherwise but the does not encompass all Christians.


I don't see how LA-girl is forcing her opinion on anyone any more then then the several people that posting anti Christians post are or is it only when some one a Christians that they are forceing there opinion .It's all just opinion anyways there no definite answers to any of this.That's why these debates are like the dog that chases it's own tail.Round and round it goes.
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Zosima (and everyone else who wants to read the Bible):
If you have further questions about the sites I am referring to you could always ask the one responsible for the web-site!

I do not know where you found your quote and in which context it has been written in. However if it is from the old testament everyone should be aware of the following:

COVENANT
The old covenant could not bring righteousness — the new can. The old covenant was mediated by Moses, written on stone tablets and was conditional. The new covenant was mediated by Jesus, unconditional and is written on living human hearts.

New Testament believers are not under the Old Testament Law.
(Romans 6:14; Galatians 3:24-25; 2 Corinthians 3:7, 11, 13). "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12)."Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
-Hebrews 8:8, 13

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t022.html

I found a web-site wich try to explain how to understand the Bible:

The Bible as a Biography of Jesus

Christians believe that in one way or another all 66 books of the Bible have been written to inform the reader of its central figure, Jesus.

In the table of contents you will notice two main divisions of books in the Bible—the Old and New Testaments. This separation relates to how Jesus is presented in each:

The Old Testament books anticipate and predict Jesus’ life and ministry
The New Testament books portray and reflect upon Jesus’ life and ministry
Jesus is more clearly understood within the New Testament books than he is in the Old. Thus, most have found it best to begin their journey through the Bible by starting in the New Testament—encountering Jesus with utmost clarity and power—before dipping into the waters of Old Testament books.

This but is an explanation to the old and the new testament which you should know before you start reading.
http://www.thelife.com/thebook/complex_intro.html

Zosima also wrote:
Presumably you don't believe that Jesus Christ wrote every word of the Bible, do you ??! - How many words of the Bible do you think were personally written by Jesus ?!

-No, I have never said that the bible was written by Jesus, I am just saying that my view on Christian salvation is in addition to being mentioned by different apostels, also confirmed by Jesus:

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35)
Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)

Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)

Jesus said "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
Henry i added a few tings in a earlier reply to you I will repeat it here:

Henry wrote:

I mean, you want me to just believe. Well, WHY should I believe you?

Like I said my first intentions were to to zelp Zipper.... This thread started because somebody said they would rather spend eternity in hell than in heaven among Christians. So I had a comment on that. The reason why I have been repeating my views and argumentet on them was because there have been questions and comments which I wanted to respond to. Most of my quotes from other web-sites has been directed to Jinxed because we have a disagreement of what christian salvation means.This was not started as an attempt to try and convert people into Christianity.So if you or someone else wants me to convince you that this is the only truth you have to go somewhere else.I can not tell you to believe this, I can just say that I do.
(I have only told you my views on what the christian salvation is about). You have to figure out for yourself if you want to find out more and believe yourself or reject it.
The choice is yours and yours only.


If you really want to explore out if Christianity is something for you Henry or anyone else in here for that matter I found a web-site which might give you some answers to your questions. I have only read parts of the articles in here, so if you want to explore this site and have questions regarding the things you read you can direct your answers to the people responsible on this web-site:
EVERYSTUDENT.COM

"WHY PICK THE GOD OF THE BIBLE"
http://www.everystudent.com/features/whypick.html

I also found another web-site web-site :
("All about religions including from a christian point of view)
http://www.christiananswers.net/menu-ar1.html#christianity
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Zosima wrote:
Well I find that very strange, as it is clearly marked as being Deuteronomy 13:6-10, from the Good News Bible. Don't you have a copy of the Bible ??!!

Sorry, I did not know that Deuteronomy was a book in the english version of the Bible. Maybe I am not the best to answer this question since english as stated earlier is not my 1. language. My Bible is in Norwegian, so I guess that explains the confusion... Maybe you enjoy this debate, but I do not. Like I have stated earlier this thread was started because I wanted to comment on a statement in the other thread "anyone afraid of hell" where someone said that they would rather spend eternity in hell than in heaven among christians. I just wanted people to know that not all christians have the same views. The fact is that I do not think we will ever agree in this. Also I do not wish to continue having a debate with a person who do not respect my belief and call me a crackpot for doing so!

Zosima wrote:
Yes, I am well aware that God had a "change of heart", LA-girl, but it is still the Word of God, & if as a Christian, you are prepared to accept all of the Bible, you must accept that the God of the New Testament is the God of the Old Testament. Are you prepared to worship a god who has shown such tyranny & blood-lust, even if He is a reformed character ? What does it say about God that He could originally have been so horrific ? How could a perfect god have a "change of heart" ? It is still your God who called for people to stone their own families, so how do you feel about that ?!

This quote is the last thing I wish to contribute with regarding your questions Zosima. (If you have questions regarding the quote you can ask the ones responsible for the web-site. I guess this will not explain anything for you as always, but it does to me! If you are so interested in this subject, why don't you just involve yourself on a forum discussing religios topics or christianity for that matter? I have mentioned many times why I first replied to Zipper and I have stressed that my purpose was not to force my belief on anyone. I do not have all the answers and I have never claimed to either. Like I told Jinxed, let us agree that we disagree and leave it at that!

The Mosaic Law... fulfilled "by" Jesus and "in" Jesus: The Law of Moses is divided into three parts, or codes:

1- The Ten Commandments, or Moral Law, (Ex.20, Deut.5), giving guidance to Israel in principles of right and wrong in relation to God and man. This is the Magna Carta or Bill of Rights of human freedom.
2- The Ordinances or the Ceremonial Law (Ex.25-40, Lev.1-10,16,23). Worship, presented in the descriptions of the Tabernacle, the Altar, Sacrifices, the Holy Days, the Levitical Offerings, the Priesthood.
3- The Judgments, or the Social Law (Lev.10-22, Ex.21-24): The Law of Holiness. Secular, social, political, and economic life... Questions of diet, sanitation, quarantine, soil conservation, taxation, military service, how to spend a honeymoon, what to do about divorce, slavery, inheritances, etc. It was a complete set of laws.

A total of 613 commands were given to Israel: 365 negative commands and 248 positive.

All the Law was fulfilled "by" Jesus ... and "in" Jesus Christ (see The Gospel of Grace).

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Mat.5:17).

1- Jesus fulfilled the Ten Commandments, the Moral Law:
- Jesus Christ fulfilled the Ten Commandments by living a perfect and sinless life... and now, when man has faith in Christ, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to that individual so we have justification, we become "a just person". We have Christ’s righteousness so the Law can’t condemn us (Rom. 8:1; 7:1-6; Rom. 5:1; 4:4-8 ).
- In Matthew 5, Jesus redefined murder (21-26), adultery (27-30), divorce (31-32), oaths (33-37), eye for an eye (38-42), love the enemies (43-48 ).

2- Jesus fulfilled the Ordinances or the Ceremonial Law: - Fulfilled by Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension... all the ordinances were a shadow of Jesus Christ who is the real sacrifice, the real High Priest, the real tabernacle, our Passover, our real Salvation... Leviticus 1, Leviticus 3, Exodus 2, Exodus 5, Exodus 6.
- Jesus is the Lamb of God who really takes away the sin of the world. With His Cross the penalty which the Law exercised was paid. There is no condemnation because the believer is “in Christ” (Col. 2:14; Rom. 3:24-25).

3- Jesus fulfilled The Judgments, or the Social Law: - Fulfilled by Jesus Christ observing the Mosaic Law as a good Jew, and he lived under divine institutions and establishment.
- And now He replaces it with a new way of life fitting to our new salvation. He gives provision for the inner man: Christ Himself in us (Gal.2:20), the indwelling Holy Spirit who enables us to experience true sanctification so that we may experience also the righteousness of the Law (Rom. 8:2-4).

Jesus Christ is the "end of the Law":
That's what the Bible says:

- Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. (Rom.10:4).
- For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
(Rom.6:14).

Christians are not under the Mosaic Law. New Testament believers are not under Law but under Grace:

Since the Lord Jesus Christ fulfills the Law by His person and work, believers are under a new law; the obligation to walk by the Spirit of Life through faith (Rom. 8:2-4). If we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18 ).

The believer in Christ who functions under the filling of the Holy Spirit takes up where Christ left off and fulfills the Law. Believers in the church age are under a higher law of spirituality: Rom.8:2-4; Gal.5:18,22,23; ICor.13.

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. (Rom.8:1-4).

Yes, Jesus has not violated the Law nor even ignored it; He has fulfilled it! The Law pronounced the sinner’s doom (Ezekiel 18:4). Christ, the sinner’s Substitute, died under that Law (Galatians 3:13), completely satisfying the demands of that Law (1 John 2:2), fully paying the wages of sin for the sinner (Romans 6:23).

It needs to be emphasized that the end of the Mosaic law, including the Ten Commandments, does not cancel or detract one iota from the eternal moral law of God. The moral principles of the ten laws did not begin with Sinai but are as eternal and immutable as the character of God.

The Law is Great... but it doesn't Save... it rather Kills!:

The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. (Rom.7:12).

Yes, the Law was great in the OT and it is great in the NT, always great and holy and good and permanent.

The Law reflects the holiness of God, and God's holiness is a permanent standard of morality. The Law reflects the holiness of God and cannot be changed. Whether we read in the Old or New Testaments. As John so plainly says, The one who says 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him (I John 2:4). God's unchanging holiness and thereby His unchanging law is an abiding standard of knowing Him and being like Him.

The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. This is what God tells us in Psalm 19:7.

The Great Problem of the Law... Grace:

God's perfect Law could not declare the sinner righteous; it could only condemn and execute him:

- For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (James 2:10)... Nobody could fulfill the whole Law, not even Moses!
- Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Rom.3:20).
- I would not have known what sin was except through the law... For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. (Rom.7:7-10).

God gave His perfect Law to demonstrate to sinners that we cannot stand before Him on the basis of our own merit...on law ground. Law can only condemn the law breaker; it cannot save him. The sinner must not seek his salvation on the grounds of law keeping, for, even if he kept the entire law and committed just one infraction, the Law would justly demand his doom (James 2:10). No, the sinner can only approach God on the grounds of God's Grace.

Law kills, it can do nothing else! Grace makes alive; it too, can do nothing else! The Law is a prosecutor, and a good one--the best one that the Universe will ever see. Grace is a defense attorney pleading the finished work of Christ. The best defense attorney of the world. Grace will never lose a case, even against the great prosecutor, Law, because the Judge is also the Savior. After fixing the sentence for outlaws (Gentiles) and law breakers (Jews), this Judge arose, removed His judicial garments, came down before the bench, and Himself paid the bailiff!.

Yes, the Law is perfect, but it is "weak through the flesh," and because it is weak through the flesh, there is something it could not do; it made nothing perfect. It is a perfect Law that made nothing perfect! (Hebrews 7:19; 9:9; 10:1). Grace, the once-for-ever death of our Substitute on Calvary, perfects forever those who put their trust in Him! (Hebrews 10:14).

So, what is good for the Law?:

It is a guide of good conduct, it shows the holiness of God... but most important, it brings us unto Christ!... when we see we can't fulfill the Law, that we are sinners, we have the need of a Savior, and it is Jesus Christ living in us, and with Jesus in us we can fulfill the Law... yes, the fulness of the Law, and not I, but Jesus who lives in me (Gal.2:20).
The Law so is a schoolmaster to bring us unto Jesus Christ!:
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (Galatians 3:24-25).


The Law and Grace do not Mix!:
If we live under the Law, we die under the Law... if we live under Grace, we have live under Grace... they do not mix, we can't live under both... but if we just live under Grace, we have the Law!.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Gal.5:4).

Someone once objected that "God requires repentance and obedience for grace." God not "require" ANYTHING for grace. That is why it IS grace! By definition, grace is unconditional. Nothing is "required" of the recipient of grace. Grace is fully dependent upon the One giving it. Thus, instead of saying that "God requires repentance and obedience for grace," the Truth is, "Repentance and obedience are the OUTCOME of grace."

In Romans 7, we are reminded that a married woman cannot take a second husband without becoming an adulteress. God and Paul use the case of the married woman to show us that we cannot mix Law and Grace without committing spiritual adultery.

The Galatians were being courted by the Law Party. They had begun in the spirit, and were now being seduced into returning to the flesh as their base for life and ministry. When we recognize that the Galatian Epistle is not only Paul’s letter to the Galatians, but God’s letter to the Body of Christ, we must realize the seriousness of our sin in trying to live the Christian life on Jewish ground. When any member of the Body of Christ seeks to approach God on the basis of human merit rather than God’s Grace, he is rejecting God’s plan in favor of Satan’s!

There is the great problem with seeing the Grace of God as something that helps us get to heaven, as if we put forth the best we can, and then grace supplies the rest. Never! Grace doesn’t help, it does it all. All of our righteousness comes from the work of Jesus for us.

The barren ground of Law has been replaced by the fertile ground of Grace (Romans 7:4).

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16).

The Law of Christ has replaced the Law of Moses (Gal.6:2)... And in this way, for Paul, the divine purpose underlying Moses' law is vindicated and accomplished.

One last note: The gospel is NOT: "Believe in Christ, or I'll send you to hell!" Rather, if we reject Christ, we remain dead. The gospel, rather than a threat of punishment, is an offer of life. God is saying, "You are dead. I have come to give you life." (Jn.10:10).

http://biblia.com/jesusbible/leviticus4.htm
 

Septor

Well-known member
Zosima said:
Septor, it is very laudable that you should want to defend others like this, but I don't think you are doing them any favours by defending their misguided belief systems.

Well thank you Zosima I think.I'm not defending there misguided belief systems.Although find the term misguided belief systems to be disrespectful.I'm not even a Christian but I keep a open mind and I have the up most respect for religious people.People should be allowed to express there beliefes with out it turning in to a free for all and be accuse of thing they are not doing.That's not to say I don't agree with you on some things.

God said:
13 Withold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell..

Zosima said:
- Proverbs 23, KJV. There's something for you to defend ! How many ways can you interpret it ??! Do you endorse it ? - Or do you think there is a "better way" ? I personally think that proverb is damaging to society, & has held back spiritual, moral & educational progress.

Cherry picking verses from the Bible is always fun.Well lets see here.If we were to take the verses literally then yes I was would agree with you and would not support it but like I said said before the bible can be in interpreted in many different ways.The Proverbs is a book of wisdom sayings, and many statements are figurative, not meant to be taken literally.I'm not going to get in to the detail of all the different ways that it can be read because we could sit here all day going over this but here is a interesting site that puts a different spin on the verses www.aolff.org/My_Homepage_Files/Page32.html As I said before the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways.Beside I don't think that verse has held back spiritual, moral & educational progress.

crack·pot (krkpt)
n.
An eccentric person, especially one with bizarre ideas.TheFreeDictionary.

Zosima said:
To me, any Christian who believes that all non-believers go to Hell is a crackpot. There, I've said it.

Wow I really don't know what to say to that considering I find that to be such a extreme view.That would make most of the Christian population crackpots but it's your opinion and there not much I can say on that because it's your opinion.

Zosima said:
LA-girl can "bring it on", as I enjoy the debate !

Yes I can see you are enjoying this. :lol:
 

newshyguy

Well-known member
12

Mary said:
Hello everyone, I just wanted to let people know especially La-girl about a site I like where you can watch pastor Joel Osteen preach. If you are interested please check it out, if not then don't! This is just for people who are interested or curious or even just want to go to church w/out having to leave the house. Which I understand. So that is all.
www.joelosteen.com

yo this guy is the best, sometimes i see him on sundays, and let me tell you he is the MAN when it comes to preaching, he talks about depression, hope, lust, and he also gives nice stories from the Bible too.
i recommend this guy to any nonbelievers , and "No" i have not bought or donated anything, what you think im rich or something??

thanks Mary for the link :)


LA-girl can "bring it on", as I enjoy the debate !

omg, and your proud of it?? not even LA girl enjoys this ,
 

Zipper

Well-known member
OK, I used to live in Houston, Texas and visited Joel Osteen's church on several occasions.

Osteen isn't a bad guy and gives some uplifting sermons. He does not mention a word about hell in his sermons. Nor does he teach that God requites wrong with destruction. Also, he does not present the Biblical explanation of the meaning of Christ's crucifixion -- to appease the wrath of God.

He keeps it optimist-like. Which is fine, but people are going to get a different story when they open up their Bibles.
 

Reholla

Well-known member
yepp thats the great thing about Christianity, as is with any religion...philosophy, etc. There are so many ways to interperret it. So people (like on this site for example!) Look for like by the book, black and white answers. If science cant prove it people dont want to believe it. Some times you need to realize that science only goes so far. That should be an indication that it's not so reliable. Even things you think you can physically see and observe can be wrong. We see the sun going from the east side of the sky, then moving to the middle by noon, then setting on the west. From our perspective, and by physically observing, it would appear that the sun is revolving around us. (We all know its the opposite)...just explaining that things cant always be obseved and be proven. So science only goes so far, then comes FAITH. Thats obviously a hard concept for people to grasp, or there would be more believers.

Basically though, if God showed us all these signs, and came down from Heaven and was like "Yep I'm God, here I am, believe in me!" I'm pretty sure everyone would believe. It wouldnt really be religion, it would just be common knowledge. God is there waiting for us, we just have to take that step and show Him that we are willing to put forth the effort. To deny our negative thoughts about Him creating "a world of sin" which isnt even true. To give up control over our lives. Instead of denying God, you should rejoice that we have a free-will, and that He doesnt make us believe in Him and that we choose to.
 

happy5225

Active member
I don't go to church.
I don't pray.
I have never had read the holy bible.
And never contact with the Christians.
I'm just be a Christian. A glossy Christian.
When Dies Irae comes, Would Jesus accept and know me??? :?
Or I'll go to the hell???
 

cLavain

Well-known member
Reholla said:
yepp thats the great thing about Christianity, as is with any religion...philosophy, etc. There are so many ways to interperret it.
But that doesn't stop many Christians from vehemently defending their own interpretation and denouncing everyone else as heretics... And of course, they all avoid the basic problem: There is no reason to invoke a god to explain anything.

Reholla said:
If science cant prove it people dont want to believe it.
In other words, if science can't answer everything (yet), then it is unreliable and any crackpot theory (like Christianity) is an equally valid method to interpret the universe? You can't seriously mean that..?

Reholla said:
Basically though, if God showed us all these signs, and came down from Heaven and was like "Yep I'm God, here I am, believe in me!" I'm pretty sure everyone would believe.
Please notice absence of said event. Nuff said.

Reholla said:
Instead of denying God, you should rejoice that we have a free-will, and that He doesnt make us believe in Him and that we choose to.
I think you have forgotten the first commandment, Reholla. Oh, and doesn't Hell have a special place for nonbelievers?
 

LA-girl

Well-known member
Happy5225 wrote:

I don't go to church.
I don't pray.
I have never had read the holy bible.
And never contact with the Christians.
I'm just be a Christian. A glossy Christian.
When Dies Irae comes, Would Jesus accept and know me???
Or I'll go to the hell???

This question we have discussed into detail earlier on. If you go back and read the discussion you will find out more about what I am convinced Christian salvation is all about and others views. :wink:

This article will might explain the questions you have. This is how I see it anyway...

WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED
http://www.biblebelievers.net/SalvationDoctrine/kjcsaved.htm

Dear sinner, do not make this a difficult matter. There is one simple step between you and Jesus. When you trust Him, everything else is settled, and you have repented, you have come to Christ, you have received Him, you have done everything necessary to be saved.Take the answer in Acts 16:31 at face value: "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED"! In dozens of Scriptures all through the Bible salvation is promised to those that believe. Read carefully the following Scriptures and see that again and again, many, many times, God has promised all any poor sinner would ever need when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe in this, that is all it takes to enter heaven in my opinion.
However it is advisable and important to hear Gods word and pray but in my opinion the aforementioned quote says what it takes to be saved. If you familiarise with this I believe you are saved. Others might disagree...
 

cLavain

Well-known member
Zosima said:
Am I the only one who enjoys the debate ?!!
Hell, no! :wink:

I guess some religious people might find it less enjoyable since they believe their very soul is on the line... 8O And most religions do not have a long tradition of encouraging open debate.
 
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