Christian people

[dzerklis]

I'm afraid you're wrong there. If I remember my history lessons right, then at the time where Europeans colonized and traveled over the world, they gave the people of the places they colonized the choice: die or accept our religion as true.
Besides that, in the past religion has been used to control the masses, just like the media are used like that now.

Do you understand that Jesus and God are nothing but ideas in your head? You have never met them. You have never seen them. You have only heard of them, read of them, thought of them.
It's nothing but blind faith. If you're honest you will have to admit this.

Let me put it this way: if Christianity, the idea of God (and Jesus), the Bible and the church did not exist, would you still believe in it? No, of course not!

hey easy, i think you should take it easy you know 'believers' have their gene of religion, which was discovered recently, its pointless to argue with them, besides faith itself is a good thing anyway unless it is used as an excuse to do any kind of crime.

 

[LA-girl]

Zipper wrote:

But fear is contagious, and indeed, if you believe that Muslims...

I see you have edited this post a couple of times. Didn't it first say:
"muslims, like me?"

 

[Zipper]

At least now you know why we feel the way we do about CHristians -- they are always trying to get us caught up into their innane theology about how God relates to man. They are always sneezing their mental viruses out on the rest of us, trying to make us carriers as well. Mind you, I believe in God -- I am a NeoPlatonist -- but these chainletters about him that Christians spread have got to be stopped. I don't want to force you to stop, but I would appeal to your sense of sympathy and pity. Try to be self-regulating.

 

[Mary]

Hey for someone who calls himself "Easy" you sound kind of difficult.J/K
J/K. I couldn't help it. A thousand apologies!
In response to what you said, though I want to tell you that I am not going totally on "blind faith". I have met God and Jesus, not in the sense where I saw them w/my eyes, but I felt them in my spirit.
It's very hard to describe. It would be like trying to describe the ocean to a blind man. (not saying you are blind) But you could say to a blind man,
The ocean is big and it has a lot of water...Doesn't exactly paint a good picture if you see my point.
That is what I'm dealing w/trying to explain my personal experience w/God and the love He showed me. You can only fully understand it by experiencing it for yourself.
Once you meet God yourself and feel His love, you no longer have any doubts. You no longer can have any doubts about Him being real ever again. And no one can ever convince you otherwise, You have seen the,
"ocean" w/your own eyes.
Last, how are Christian's trying to control people? What are we doing that
is so awful? The people you were talking about who were forcing other's to convert or die were not true Christian's. Jesus never forced anyone.
And people who really follow him don't either.
I know that just by sharing my experiences and my faith people are not
going to suddenly go," oh I believe now". But I'm hoping some will at least
remember what I have said when they are feeling alone or deppressed or even suicidal. Because I have been there and ea. time, God helped me.

 

[Zipper]

I am toying around with Islamic NeoPlatonism -- such as people like Averroes and others. It's a current interest. Islam is no more obnoxious than Christianity.

 

[Zipper]

I have no doubt God did help you and you did have an experience of God. Does that provide evidentiary warrant for the teaching in the Bible that God visits destruction on the unconverted? Absolutely not.

You know, if all you have evidence for is a belief in a God who cares for humans, there are like a million religions you can choose from. Christianity is for you only if you want a belief in a God who shall render destruction upon Buddhists, among other unconverted people.

I BELIEVE in God. I BELIEVE in a God who brings joy to his creatures. But I am not a Christian. You can be this way too, minus the whole blood sacrifices, divine vengeance thing. And if you would like to convert me, the question I would have is, "What is it that you would like to convince me of? That God is a God of vengeance, as the Bible says?"

 

[Mary]

Zipper, If I have offended you in any way, I apologize. That was not my intent. I am sorry you find christian's obnoxious. However, that said, I don't believe I have said anything disrespectful to you, so please try not to disrespect other's Or their belief's.
You don't have to get so angry..really you don't. I'm not the least bit upset by other's comment's, everyone has a right to their belief's. Hearing them won't upset me, because my faith is firm and unwavering. If you believe so strongly in what you say, don't let it upset you either.

 

[easy]

You know, if all you have evidence for is a belief in a God who saves humans, there are like a million religions you can choose from. Christianity is for you only if you want a belief in a God who shall render destruction upon Buddhists, among other unconverted people.

Now what did Buddhists do wrong? lol
I have been reading up on Buddhism and I think it is beautiful.

I'll stop discussing this whole 'does god exist' thing now, because it's pointless.

 

[newshyguy]

1

Jesus is your homie!

 

[TLZ]

TLZ wrote:
The whole concept of heaven and hell is one of many many concept created by religion to scare people into believing.

I can not speak for every Christian person out there, but I can speak for myself. What would I gain to scare people into believing?? Except for humiliation and ugly replies from some non-Christians. Like Mary said, we have SA, which means we fear negative criticism. So why do I bother you might think?
Well, lets say that you firmly believed in something that could help and save others, wouldn’t you feel obligated to speak out about this so that the ones who read it can make up their own minds whether they want to share the same belief or not? I had the choice to keep my mouth shut (or my fingers still) in order to avoid the discomfort of all these negative replies… But then I would simply be a coward, wouldn’t I….?
One persons belief can seem bizarre to another but we should be able to discuss our own and others beliefs without fear and judgement! (I’m not talking about you TLZ because of your quote!)
Because I disagree with another's belief and visa versa should not cause suffering to him/her or me.

I like to compare religion with virus. A virus takes control of a host cell and makes that cell to produce more virueses, to spread it. There for I would say the cell is a victim, not something that wants to scare people. I know that christians intent are good. My conviction is that religions are fake, and that they have alot of mechanisms to make people believe. The promise of sommething good if you believe and something bad if you don't seem to be det foundation of most large religions.

Believe me: One day when I came to my room there where 5-6 homemade posters with quotes from the bible and christian texts. I did feel that as a good gesture as I know that from they're point of view they where trying to save me.

I definitly think you should expose your opinions and beliefs, but you should definitly be able to handle people's reactions. (Some christians don't)

Somethings that irrititate me about certain christians is that they have this one-way respect thing. They can say strong things such as that you're going to hell, etc... FINE! But then they'll gotta bare that I say that believing in such believes is naive. (as you can percive my conviction as something that I'll end up suffering for).

When it comes to discussion, actually life in general I recommend something: Grow some skin. I was super-sensetive before and the slightest negative statement(even if it was ironic) made me feel bad.

Mary: I'm convinced that christianity is trying to control people(and IS controlling christians).

 

[LA-girl]

TLZ wrote:

I definitly think you should expose your opinions and beliefs, but you should definitly be able to handle people's reactions. (Some christians don't)

I’m not sure when you say “you” here if you mean me? I can tell you that I have been capable of handle every comment directed to me here just fine.

When it comes to discussion, actually life in general I recommend something: Grow some skin.

Yes, I think we should be able to handle a great deal of negative comments to a certain degree.
But that does not mean that I think it is necessarily ok when some people hit you with disrespectful comments. In my opinion some have been. Yours I find to be fair though.
I know that every one in here is in title to express whatever they want, but it does not mean that one should not react when one feel attacked. Like a few people in here claimed that they would rather be in hell than to come to heaven and live among Christians. Knowing that there are Christian people in here I found that to be distasteful. I think people here expect to be treated with more respect than they sometimes do in here.

 

[Zipper]

The comment -- "If you don't agree with me about why Christ died, God will destroy you" -- is more than a little disrespectful. It is the most horrible thing that one person can say to another person. Yet Christians pass it off very glibly: "Well it's not ME who's making death threats, it's the Bible, God's word."

Don't hide behind a book that does not appear to be related to an omnipotent, virtuous, and sane mind. In your statements it is you who maintain that the Bible has validity, so when you repeat what is written there it is genuinely Your death threats, not just the Bible's.

In comparison, what the agnostics and pagans say about Christianity -- that it is a false mental plague -- is extremely mild. So, Let's keep things in perspective here and recognize who it is that is throwing around the more explosive rhetoric!

 

[jojosparkles]

i really dont agree that christians r backwards. i think that is a bit of a stereotype!

i am a roman catholic and went to an all girls school run by nuns. i turned out completely normal and not a bible basher! in our lessons we always had discussions on euthansia, abortion, contraception, homosexuality and sex before marriage. everyone had different opinons on life. it dont mean cos they christian or catholic that everyone thinks the same! i dont agree with alot of the catholic faith..but i do beleive in God and have faith and thats a good thing!

i really never understand why ppl have such arguements and views on christianity. why cant it just be each to its own! if ppl are happy well leave them to it!

 

[Mary]

Hi everyone! Zipper, did you miss me? Sorry I couldn't post (7 rule thing)
But here I am and just wanted to say that I have to beg to differ w/you again, Zipper: Saying someone is going to hell is not the worst thing you could ever say. The worst thing you could ever say is, " You aren't going to go to hell and then be wrong about it."
If I am wrong like I said, worst case scenario is people get their feelings hurt and get mad at me or a little anxious, I can live w/all that. What I couldn't live w/is not trying to help anyone to not go to a place that is so horrible.
I also have a question for you, you posted this topic because you say you are worried that hell might be real. If you feel that way, How can you try so hard to convince other's it isn't real. When you yourself aren't sure. I am sure in my belief's. Maybe the reason you feel fear is because GOD IS TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING.
To all the atheists-God loves you too. And all I will say on the topic of evolution is, I'm not sure about how we came into existence or how God formed us but as soon as I get to heaven, I will ask Him!

 

[LA-girl]

What denominations do all you Christians belong to ?

Sorry, never heard of the word... What does that mean?
(English is not my first language...) :?

 

[socratic]

ive only recently started to familiarise myself with the christianic texts and i often find they contain a lot of contradictions. Im sure there are people that will be able to explain these to me. From what i have read, the old testament bible was written around 1000 BCE and was a collection of the laws of the israelites as well as the words of god himself. The israelites state that they have only one god and that judaism is a monotheistic religion, this i find confusing.

"And the lord god said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever, therefore the lord god sent him forth from the garden of eden..." Genesis 3:22 - 24

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the lord god has made. And he said unto the woman, yea, hath god said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, we may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, god hath said, ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, ye shall not surely die, for god doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods.
Genesis 3:1 - 5

There are numerous references to gods in a plural context, which i find odd as these are supposed to be the word of the only god.

 

[LA-girl]

In response to Jinxed:

These are quotes from 3 different web-pages. I don't think that we will agree in this. I'm fully aware of everything you say, but my conviction (and many others) are that it is as simple as I have stated. Like I said you are free to disagree with me here, but you also have to let me disagree with your view.

This website exists solely to magnify the Almighty God of the universe, Jesus Christ; and His Eternal Word, the King James Bible. In so doing, THE TRUTH is proclaimed concerning many different topics.

This book is all about salvation. I am going to share with you many of the practical truths which God has used to burn my heart over the years. I think of these truths often. I can proclaim with Jacob, “I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the TRUTH, which thou hast shewed unto thy servant” (Genesis 32:10). God is wonderful to me and His truths are precious indeed. I fervently pray that the truths in this book will be a blessing to every reader. These are NOT my truths, they are God’s truths; I’m simply sharing them with you, gladly.

May I say, there will always be areas of doctrine that puzzle us. This is why we are challenged in 2nd Timothy 2:15 to “STUDY to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.” This is how we learn the Bible—by dividing it (cross-referencing). When we compare one Scripture with other Scriptures, we obtain true doctrine. This is where many people get into big trouble—by failing to “rightly divide” the Word of Truth. For example, we are told in Mark 16:16 that “Whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” The casual reader might mistakenly conclude that baptism is essential for salvation. This would make baptism a sacrament. This is not correct however because we are told elsewhere in the Bible that Paul was not sent to baptize, but rather to preach the Gospel. “For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE, but to preach the gospel” (1st Corinthians 1:17). Paul never would have made such a statement if baptism were necessary for salvation. This is just one of thousands of examples of why it’s important to know your Bible well. It is my earnest belief that every Christian should have a thorough understanding of the Bible.

Yes, a man becomes a "new creature" in Christ when he gets saved, but the Bible is filled with believers who departed from God and didn't lose their salvation (like kind David when he commit adultery, impregnated Bathsheba, and then murdered her husband in an attempt to cover his wickedness). David when he repented asked God to restore unto him the "joy" of salvation, not salvation itself (Psalm 51:12).

Salvation is not the result of what we do, but it is the result of receiving what Christ has done for us.

Couldn't Find Peace About My Salvation

When I first became a Christian, I doubted my salvation for several years. I simply didn’t understand the Bible enough to KNOW whether or not I was saved. I had dozens of questions going through my mind. Did I have enough faith? Did I really “believe” on Christ? If I did believe, then why am I unsure about my salvation? What if I’m not saved? Is God upset with me because I keep asking Him to save me? Does it show a lack of faith because I keep asking God to save me? Why can’t I find peace on the matter?

Over the years which followed, I purposed in my heart to learn the Bible. I wanted to know everything about salvation and faith there was to know. Anytime I heard a sermon about faith or believing, I listened attentively. I read every Gospel tract I could get my hands on, each several times through. Time and time again I would admit to God I was a sinner and ask Him to save me. I remember telling God in prayer that I had a right as His Child to KNOW if I was saved. I told God that I would get saved in a heartbeat if I wasn’t saved. The big problem was that I didn’t KNOW 100% sure whether I was saved or lost.


I Finally Received the Assurance of My Salvation

The doubts continued for many years. The Holy Spirit showed me many wonderful truths and finally, in time, I grasped the assurance of my salvation. I had been saved all along but lacked the Bible knowledge to be at perfect peace about it. I had been afraid of something which I didn’t understand. I had been looking to a prayer and a past experience instead of looking to what was in my heart at the present. I had learned that salvation is of the heart, not the mouth (Romans 10:9, "...and shalt believe in thine heart..."). It wasn’t my prayer, but my faith that saved me. After five years of searching and wondering, I finally had the assurance of my salvation. Next to my salvation, this was the greatest thing which God had ever done for me. I had learned that faith is NOT optimism. It was ok to doubt, just as long as I was “believing on Jesus.” No amount of doubt can keep a soul out of heaven, just as long as you believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ ("...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." -Romans 16:31).[/

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/salvation_webpages/00-introduction.htm

The plain truth is that we are saved by God's grace through faith (believing and trusting) in Jesus, God's Savior.

Abraham was saved because he believed God.

Noah was saved because he believed God.

The thief on the cross was saved by asking the Lord to remember him when He came into His kingdom - showing that He believed Jesus was the promised one sent by God.

All the apostles were saved by believing that Jesus was the Messiah and Son of God.

All in the book of Acts were saved by hearing and believing that Jesus was the risen Christ.
The list of examples in the Bible is almost countless. Everyone saved was saved by belief + nothing. Some say you must have good works because it is the measure of faith but I will say scripture teaches that some saved will not have many or any good works. Some believers living in flagrant sin in the time of Paul were turned over to the Devil for destruction of the flesh so that their soul would be saved in the judgment of Jesus.
Yet, if we believe in Jesus we will all be saved. Do not say that a confessing believer cannot be assured of their salvation because scripture clearly says otherwise.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

(There are more sciptures if you read the article....[size]

Believe me, this scripture list is just the tip of the iceberg. I can assure you from the word of God if you believe that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved despite what all the legalistic teachers in the world say. If you believe that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead you do not have to doubt your salvation but if you search your heart and know you do not believe you are not saved even if you claim to be a Christian.

The sanctification process that brings us to reject sin and do His will comes after we are saved. It comes by works of the Spirit as we allow Him to work in us through our own free will.
If salvation is a free gift from God, it is free, with no strings attached. That is what the good news is all about!

http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/How one is saved.htm


I also found another web-page from evangelist John Rice. He has a lot of the same arguments as the author behind the first web-page I am referring to.

You can read his article:

WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED
http://www.biblebelievers.net/SalvationDoctrine/kjcsaved.htm

Dear sinner, do not make this a difficult matter. There is one simple step between you and Jesus. When you trust Him, everything else is settled, and you have repented, you have come to Christ, you have received Him, you have done everything necessary to be saved. Take the answer in Acts 16:31 at face value: "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED"! In dozens of Scriptures all through the Bible salvation is promised to those that believe. Read carefully the following Scriptures and see that again and again, many, many times, God has promised all any poor sinner would ever need when he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[nedkelly]

i really never understand why ppl have such arguements and views on christianity. why cant it just be each to its own! if ppl are happy well leave them to it![/quote]

I couldn't have said it better myself jojosparkles

 

[LA-girl]

Lavinia84 wrote:

First things first:
LA-girl.

You stated that Good Theif belived Jesus was the son of God and that by his death he redeemed our sins.

So, I looked it up. The Good Theif is only found in Lukes Gospel.

Luke 23:39-42 (World English Bible)

[39]One of the criminals who was hanged insulted him, saying, "If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!" [40] But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Don't you even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? [41] And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong." [42] He said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Now, as far as I can tell the condemned man believes:

a) Jesus is innocent
b) Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and his kingdom is in the next world

Where does he say Jesus is the Son of God or that Jesus' blood sacrifice redeems him?

Maybe this article can answer your question on this.

Today You Will Be with Me in Paradise
Two Ways to Respond to Suffering
April 17, 1981

Luke 23:43

There are two kinds of responses to our own personal suffering: 1) We can rail against God and say, "If you are such a great and powerful and loving God, why am I in this hellish mess?" 2) Or we can acknowledge that we are sinners and don't deserve any good thing, and cry out for mercy and help in our time of desperation. The world is full of those who rail against God in their self-righteousness and presume that the creator of the universe obliged to make their life smooth. But there are only a few who own up to the fact that God owes us nothing, and that any good to come our way will be due to his mercy, not our merit. I think Luke records this text for us about the two thieves to teach us that there is great reward for responding to suffering like the first sort of person. The two thieves represent these two ways of responding to suffering and relating to Christ in suffering.

Notice first how similar they are. Both are suffering the pain of crucifixion. Both are guilty of crime ("We are receiving the due reward of our deeds," v.41). Both see Jesus, the sign over his head ("King of the Jews v. 38 ) they hear the words from his mouth ("Father forgive them," v. 34). And both of these thieves want desperately to be saved from death.

Most of us have all these things in common with these two thieves: there has been, is, or will be suffering in our lives. And none of us will be able to say: "I do not deserve this." Most of us have seen Jesus on the cross and have heard his claim to kingship and his gracious words of forgiveness. And all of us want to be saved from death one way or the other.

But then the ways divide these two thieves and between two categories of people. The first thief says, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" What a picture of a spiritually destitute, worldly man. It is a matter of total indifference to him that he is suffering "the due reward of his deeds." To him right and wrong, praise and blame, good and bad are of no interest: his one objective is to save his earthly skin. He might even believe Jesus is the Messiah, the King of the Jews. But, it's only a matter of convenience to him: he'll take anybody as king who can get him off the cross. Just another patsy to serve his own worldly purposes.

That's the way one whole segment of humans relate to God in suffering. Suffering interrupts their own private worldly goals and pleasures. So why not try God; if you are king, then get me out of this mess. It's the old car-jack theology. A car-jack is a dirty, useless thing to be kept out of sight in the trunk until you have a flat tire (a little suffering). Then you get it out, let it do the dirty work and put it away again. "If you're such a good jack, jack me down off this cross, Jesus." "If you're such a good jack, jack me up out of this sickness, out of this financial mess, out of this lousy job, out of this crummy marriage. "

The thief had no spirit of brokenness, or guilt or penitence or humility. He could only see Jesus as a possible power by which to escape the cross. He did not see him as a king to be followed. It never entered his mind that he should say he was sorry and should change.

But notice the other thief: this one is the one Luke wants us to be like. First, he is not sucked in by the other fellow's railing. And if we are to follow his example we will have to stand our ground and not be sucked in by the people all around us who say, "If your God is so great and loving, then why the 20 kids shot in Atlanta?" "Why sixteen miners buried in a cave?" "Why a village slaughtered in El Salvador?" "Why doesn't he come down off his helpless perch on the cross and do something?" The first thing the repentant thief does is not get deceived by all this talk.

"But he rebuked him saying, 'Do you not fear God?"' This is the secondthing about this penitent thief: he feared God. God was real to him. God was his creator, and he knew that a pot can't take up arms against the potter and come away victorious. It is fitting that creatures bow in submission before their creator and subject all their life to his wisdom. It is even more fitting that sinful creatures bow before God in holy fear, instead of railing against God as if a rebel ant should kick against the foothills of Mt. Everest and demand that it flatten out so the ant can walk across.

Third, the penitent thief admitted that he had done wrong: "We are receiving the due reward of our deeds" (v. 41). He had no desire to save face any more; he had no more will to assert himself. He was here and laid open before the God he feared and there was no way to hide has guilt. I know people right now who are in trouble. But instead of laying down their self-righteous defenses, they are devising every means to finagle and distort so as to appear innocent and cool. The penitent thief gave it up. It's a hopeless tack, anyway, before an all-knowing God!

Fourth, not only did he admit to wrong and guilt, he accepted his punishment as deserved. "We are under the sentence of condemnation justly." This is the real test of humility before God. Many will mouth the confession of sin: "God be merciful to us miserable sinners," but when some trouble comes, they get angry at him. And this anger reveals that they do not really feel undeserving before God. They still feel, deep down, that they have some rights before God. There are not many people like Job, who, when he lost everything, said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb and naked shall I return; the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord." But this penitent thief did become like Job in the last minutes of his life - he took his suffering without complaint, and feared God.

Fifth, the thief acknowledged Jesus' righteousness: "This man had done nothing wrong." It didn't make any difference to the first thief if Jesus was right or wrong. If he could drive the get-away car—that's all that mattered. But it matters a lot to Jesus if we think his life was good or bad. Jesus does not want to drive a get-away car; he wants to be followed because we admire him. We must say with the thief: "This man has done nothing wrong." This man only does what is good. This man only speaks the truth. This man is worthy of our faith and allegiance and imitation.

And then, sixth, the thief goes a step further and acknowledges that indeed, Jesus is a King. "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom." Even though he is suffering now, Jesus has the mark of a King. For those who have eyes to see, he has a power here on the cross—a power of love that makes him King over all his tormentors. He is not only good, he is powerful, and one day will vindicate his great name, and every knee will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord—to the glory of God, the Father.

And finally, the penitent thief does one more thing. He fears God, admits wrong, accepts justice, acknowledges the goodness and power of Jesus. Now he pleads for help. "Jesus, remember when you come into your Kingdom." Both thieves wanted to be saved from death. But O how differently they sought their salvation: 1) "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 2) "Jesus, remember when you come into your Kingdom!" There is an infinite qualitative difference between "Save me!" and "Save me!"

Now what motive does Jesus give us to follow in the steps of the penitent thief? There is a fearful silence toward the railing thief: not a word recorded of Jesus to him. Perhaps a final pitying glance. But no promise. No hope.

But to the penitent Jesus says: "Today you will be with me in Paradise." This was almost too good. There would not even be a delay. Today the Spirit of Jesus and the renewed Spirit of the thief would be in union in Paradise. The promise would be without delay.

You also defined what one must believe in order to be a Christian, so I ask what would one be if one believed:

That Jesus was a prophet?
That Jesus' purpose was to bring a message and that it is his message which redeems, his death being a consequence of the message, and not the redeeming act at all?

I'm sorry these questions are way too complicated for me to answer. I have to admit I don't even understand much. (I'm Norwegian so maybe that has something to to with it. If this is a puzzle, my answer would be a muslim? Is that correct?

IF THIS DOES NOT ANSWER ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS; I WILL SUGGEST YOU ASK SOMEONE WHO HAS STUDIED THE BIBLE MORE CLOSELY THAN I HAVE. OR MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE IN HERE WILL BE CAPABLE OF ANSWERING ALL YOUR QUESTIONS....?

 

[LA-girl]

For me this whole debate was started as an intention for me to help Zipper, because of his fear of entering hell. Obviously Zipper was aware of the message I had regarding what it means to be saved. Later I realized through later replies from him that he had already made up his mind about this.

In stead my reply started an extensive debate between christians and non-christians and also between christians. All this because we have different views about this. I have my view and others have other views. Although i am convinced about what i am writing is true I can never prove that my view is the only truth and neither can you.
I think this whole debate has, for me at least, continued long enough. Religion is a subject that can be continued until the end of days. And I guess nobody will be able to have 100 % evidence for their beliefs and theories while we are still living on this earth... We will never agree anyway! Whomever wants to continue this debate is free to do so. Maybe there are a few remaining questions for me to answer, but for me this debate is soon to be over..

Also since this in fact is a forum for SA in particular, it would maybe be better to continue the debate on another forum (religious) for those who are interested...?