Christian people

[Lavinia84]

I have to say I thouroughly enjoy the debate

 

[LA-girl]

Hi!

We all know that there are indeed disagreements when it comes to religion and views about life and death. Is there a God? Is there a life after death and so on and so on....Is my view correct, is your view correct.... nobody have real proofs for their beliefs or disbeliefs.
I can just tell you what is my view and what I have faith in. I could choose to try to convince you, like certain people try to convince me and others in here that my view is wrong.
But all I can encourage you to do is; check it out for yourself!
I have been referring to some links (A few posts up ^) In response to Henry) for those who wish. Mary has also contributet with a link to Joel Osteen church with his ceremonies on web-TV, which I and others in here recommend. (Also a couple posts up ^)

I would like to thank all people in here who have chosen to argue with a sense of respect and to those of you who chose to take action and react when people seemed to lack it.

Like I told you this debate has in many ways been a struggle for me, but there has at least been one positive outcome out of this. My faith in Jesus has been strengthened despite all accusations and attempts and effort made for me and others in here to doubt our belief. (Maybe that was not your intention, I don't know...however that is how I have felt it at times)

I have no proof for my belief. But I know I have Jesus in my heart......
(Hey...I must have a pretty big heart--LOL!) 8O :wink: ..... and I have no plan to ever throw him out of there! :lol:

Happy easter everyone!!! :wink:

 

[Reholla]

I guess some religious people might find it less enjoyable since they believe their very soul is on the line... quote]

I find it very enjoyable to talk about religion, and anything I base my entire life around. This whole topic is interesting.

What I find LESS enjoyable is how some people go about this. If you actually enjoy "fighting" which I think some people in here do, then theres where its a problem. If you are talking about it for the right reasons it wont be hard for you to be respecful to other people.


- And I find it very funny that you, some one who doesnt believe in God, think MY soul (one that does believe in God) is on the line...hmm, let's just pretend there is such a God...I know in my heart there is, but from your point of view im "pretending." Who would be in trouble then?

I'm not talking to you because my soul is on the line...its actually the opposite. I'm trying to help YOU understand. I think it's safe to say we're both interested in the "truth", whatever that might be. But for me, i KNOW the truth already and Jesus is always going to be my purpose in living until some one shows me otherwise....

 

[cLavain]

And I find it very funny that you, some one who doesnt believe in God, think MY soul (one that does believe in God) is on the line...hmm, let's just pretend there is such a God...I know in my heart there is, but from your point of view im "pretending." Who would be in trouble then?

I don't think you're pretending, I'm sure you really believe. As far as I understand Christianity then no one is guaranteed a place in heaven (correct me if I'm wrong), so even if you do believe in God, your soul could still go to hell if God so chooses..?

Or is it that someone who's a Christian and a right bastard will go to heaven, whereas someone who's a non-Christian and a nice person will automatically go to hell?

But for me, i KNOW the truth already and Jesus is always going to be my purpose in living until some one shows me otherwise....

That will never happen. There is an infinite number of possible belief systems that technically no one can disprove. The big question is why choose Christianity instead of any of the other ones? Indeed, why choose one at all, when it is quite clear that none of them are more obviously true than any of the others.

Why not just choose to believe in a creator, and leave it at that, Reholla?

 

[shovelhead]

Or is it that someone who's a Christian and a right bastard will go to heaven, whereas someone who's a non-Christian and a nice person will automatically go to hell?

Yes sadly that is what many christians seem to believe...

The big question is why choose Christianity instead of any of the other ones? Indeed, why choose one at all, when it is quite clear that none of them are more obviously true than any of the others.

People simply believe what feels right for them, as long as their beliefs don't judge others, or they don't push there beliefs on others its fine... Unfortunately not all people adhear to that principle so we all fight about religion and belief, which should be a personal thing...

Why not just choose to believe in a creator, and leave it at that, Reholla?

Its called Diasm and many people feel that way too... ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

 

[Mary]

I just wanted to say that I agree with LA-girl on that we will not agree on this and just to agree to disagree. Those of us who have had personal experience's with God, know that those experiences aren't something that
can ever be taken from us. We know what we know, and people can't convince us otherwise. Likewise we can not convince other's who have not had these experience's.
It is something very personal that each person must experience or not on their own.
I am not putting all this to continue arguing with any of you so please do not misinterpret me. I am hoping that those of you sincere in seeking God will continue to look for Him, and those who do not know Him will one day find Him. I wish you all the best and have a great Easter!

 

[cLavain]

Remember, Zosima's judgement is pedagogical, & His love for all of you is unconditional !![/b][/color]

Now there's a thought. Offering something without presenting a list of demands? Only a human could do something crazy like that...

Those of us who have had personal experience's with God, know that those experiences aren't something that can ever be taken from us.

Excactly. You don't want your experience to be something other than what you hope it was, so any argument suggesting otherwise will be rejected without further consideration.

Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true.

Happy Easter!

And to LA-girl: God påske!

 

[LA-girl]

In my english Bible (King James version) it says:
Matthew 25.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Righteousness
We become righteous through Christ. It's in the Bible, II Corinthians 5:21, NIV. "God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." Romans 3:22, NIV. "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."
Our righteousness is in the Lord. It's in the Bible, Isaiah 45:24, KJV. "In the Lord have I righteousness and strength."
We do not become righteous by being good. It's in the Bible, Isaiah 64:6, TLB. "We are all infected and impure with sin. When we put on our prized robes of righteousness, we find they are but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves we fade, wither and fall. And our sins, like the wind, sweep us away."
We are not righteous by nature, God makes us that way. It's in the Bible, Psalm 51:10, TLB. "Create in me a new, clean heart, O God, filled with clean thoughts and right desires."

http://en.bibleinfo.com/topics/topic.html?id=253

About works; I don't say you should not do good deeds. I think when you accept Jesus as your saviour and truly believe and have faith in him you will have a change of heart and you want to do good things

Has This Passage Ever Bothered You?
Matthew 25:31-46 - Works Salvation?
by Bob Wilkin

I recently received questions concerning the same passage from two readers. One wrote, "A passage that bothers me is the Judgment of the Gentiles (Matthew 25:31-46). Here judgment is solely by works (verse 40) with consequences of heaven and hell (verse 46). Rewards do not seem to be the primary issue, although the invitation to 'inherit the kingdom' might introduce rewards to the context." Another wrote similarly, "In Matthew 25:31-46 all of the saved have good works and inherit the kingdom. This seems to suggest that all true believers produce good works and that inheriting the kingdom is not a special privilege reserved for faithful believers only, but is the birthright of all who have entered the family of God. I know I must be missing something in the passage, but I don't know what it is."
I, too, have struggled with this passage before. However, I have discovered that it is not that difficult to understand or explain if we observe very carefully all of the particulars.

First, the judgment is indeed based on works. The sheep are praised and inherit the kingdom. The goats are rebuked and cast into hell. The cause for praise or rebuke is how the Gentiles in question treated believing Jews during the Tribulation.

Second, all of the sheep are praised, not just some.

Third, the four parables which immediately precede this account (Matthew 24:42-25:30) all deal with rewards for faithful believers and a lack of rewards for faithless ones.

Fourth, the reference in verse 31 to the Son of Man coming in His glory with His angels is an obvious allusion back to Matthew 16:27--another passage dealing with the recompensing of all men according to their works.

Fifth, the verses in question are the conclusion of the Olivet Discourse and must be understood in light of the whole discourse. Especially important to understanding Matthew 25:31-46 is carefully observing Matthew 24:4-28. There Jesus taught that all who endure to the end shall be saved (24:13). End of what? The end of the tribulation is in view. Endurance in this context refers to persevering in the faith and living a godly life in the face of persecution (24:10-12). "Salvation" here refers to physically surviving the tribulation as verse 22 makes clear ("unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved") -- not to spiritual salvation from hell as is commonly thought. Thus what Jesus was saying in Matthew 24:13 was that only faithful believers would survive the tribulation. Unfaithful believers would die physically during the tribulation. [This is not to say that Matthew 24:13 is a blanket promise that has no exceptions. Rather it is a proverbial statement that has exceptions in cases where the Lord has a special purpose. For example, some enduring believers will be martyred during the tribulation (cf. Revelation 6:9-11.)] This explains why all of the sheep are praised at the judgment of the Gentiles. It also explains why every person at that specific judgment who was not faithful to God was an unbeliever. This is the single most important factor in understanding this passage -- recognizing that in that unique time period, the judgment after the tribulation, every surviving believer will be marked by faithfulness.

Sixth, in light of the preceding comments, it is evident that the basis of being sent to hell in this passage was sinfulness and unbelief. Since those cast into eternal fire did not believe in Christ, their sins were not covered by His blood and hence they were doomed to eternal damnation (cf. Matthew 25:41-46 ;John 8:24).

Seventh, it follows from the discussion above that the basis of "inheriting the kingdom" (25:34) is good works. Since Scripture cannot contradict itself, we know from a host of other passages that cannot mean that these people will gain entrance to the kingdom because they were faithful. Rather, in light of the preceding four parables and many other passages we know that what is in view here is possessing, not entering, the kingdom. Only faithful believers will rule with Christ and have treasure in the kingdom of heaven. Sometimes the phrase "inheriting the kingdom" refers to rulership and rewards. See, for example, Matthew 19:29; Romans 8:17; 1 Corinthians 6:9-1l, 9:24-27; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Galatians 5:19-21,6:6-10; Ephesians 5:5; 2 Timothy 2:12; and 1 Peter 1:4-9. In my estimation these passages refer to Christ's kingdom in its entirety, millennial and eternal. Faithful believers will forever rule in Christ's kingdom and possess a special abundance of life. The degree of joy and rulership we experience will depend on our degree of faithfulness in this life.

Eighth, this passage does not in any way deny that kingdom entrance is conditioned solely upon faith in Christ. All believers will get into the kingdom though all will not possess and inherit it in the sense spoken of here. (N. B. There is another use of the term inherit, kleronomia/kleronomeo, in which all believers are members of God's family and kingdom. See, for example, Galatians 3:18,29. One verse which mentions both types of inheritance is Romans 8:17. All believers are heirs of God. Only those believers who willingly suffer for Christ, however, are joint heirs with Christ.)
Matthew 25:31-46 is thus a judgment passage which deals with survivors of the tribulation. Believers who survive won't appear at the judgment seat of Christ. (Neither, by the way, will those who become believers during the millennium. They will evidently be judged at the end of the millennium. While we can't be certain, I imagine that Old Testament saints will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ -- or possibly immediately before or after it.) Similarly, unbelievers who survive the tribulation evidently won't appear at the Great White Throne Judgment. Matthew 25:41-46 records their final judgment -- 1000 years before that of Satan and his angels and the unsaved dead at the end of the Millennium (cf. Revelation 20:11-15). The uniqueness of this judgment, unlike the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment, is that believers and unbelievers will be judged at the same time and place.[/color]

http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html

Jesus Christ said, "He who believes in Me has everlasting life" (John 6:47). He also said, "He who lives and believes in Me will never die." Eternal life is eternal.

Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world (John 1:29). He has removed the sin barrier which separated us from God. However, we still lack spiritual life, eternal life. To get that life, we must simply believe in Jesus for it. There are no strings attached. Our eternal salvation is "not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Eph 2:9).

Simply believe in Jesus and He guarantees you will never die spiritually. You will go to heaven when you die, and spend eternity in God's kingdom. It really is that simple. That's why it's called Good News.

http://www.faithalone.org/gospel.html

Oh, almost forgot... GOD PÅSKE cLavain!!! :wink:

 

[Mary]

The easter weekend is coming up and for me it is a time to reflect on what Jesus did for us on the cross. For the amazing act of love He showed for us by dying so that we might have victory over death.
God knew, that we could never be "good" enough to earn salvation on our own that is why He sent Jesus. If it were possible for us to be good enough
He would not have sent his son to die such a horrible death.
Jesus knew he was going to die a horrible death and why, he knew it was necessary. He prayed before being crucified,"That if possible, this would pass from him. But not his will but God's be done." He is saying there was no other way. Mark 14:32-42
If you believe this and accept him, you will be baptised not with water but with the holy spirit. Who in turn will help you and give conviction of sin. Who will comfort you.
I am not worthy of what Jesus did for me, nobody is. And I for one, love him and am eternally grateful.

 

[Zipper]

God requites wrong with destruction upon the human or Christ on the cross as a substitutionary atonement. 8O God shall destroy all of the unconverted. :twisted:

 

[LA-girl]

THE HOPE

A online-biblical movie that gives a brief summary of the Creation, the Fall, Gods judgments, the true identity of Jesus, and the redemptive plan that He began long ago to save a world lost in sin. The HOPE clearly explains the way of salvation, chronologically, starting in Genesis.

For those of you who wants to check it out:

http://christiananswers.net/hope/thehope-full-length.html

 

[Mary]

Hello Everyone let's all try to play nice in here o.k?
LA-girl you have a big heart and I appreciate all you do to try to help others. You know I think the things you put are very helpful unfortunately they only help if you take the time to read them, which some people do not, or only read them looking for ways to pick a fight based on them.
But still there are other's who will take the time, like me, and for that I thank you for putting them!

 

[Remus]

*note to all*

The mods have thier eye on this thread

no personal attacks please

and show abit of respect for others, even if they dont share the same beliefs

the debate has been good apart from that 8)

 

[Remus]

I'd like to post about me being agnostic but lightning struck the other day and my PC fried so I dont want to tempt fate 8O

 

[LA-girl]

Hi Zosima!

Before the editor removed some of your comments in your last reply for being personal attacks, you asked me why I keep referring to different web-sites in order to explain my view. Well I have explained with my own words what I believe salvation is all about. But in order to support my theory, I add quotes from different web-pages which have studied the Bible much more than I have. There are tons of question regarding this subject so in stead of using my whole life in order to study and come to the same conclusions, I prefer to give quotes from people that are able to explain my view into more depth and detail than I am able to.

Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?

Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the "Christian" cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard to reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18 ). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their life is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.

http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

Well can you explain all these biblical verses and still believe that you are saved only by good works?

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Timothy 1:9

If you love me keep my commandments John 14:15

This is His commandment that we believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another I John 3:23

We love him because he first loved us I John 4:19

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; Titus 3:5-6

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 1:12-13

It is by grace we have been saved, not of works, lest any man should boast, it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:15-16

we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Acts 15:11

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians 2:2

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Romans 3: 22-24

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:27-28

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

And he said unto me, My grace is
sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. II Cor 12: 9

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-7

Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. 1 Peter 1:3

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 16:24-26

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Ephesians 1:6-7

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Romans 10:4

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Romans 11:6

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly Romans 4:5KJV

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed Romans 4:16a

 

[Mary]

LA-girl, there is a website where you can listen to christian music while you are online doing other things. Check it out once you get a chance, you or anyone else who so chooses! Just make sure your popup blocker is off so you can get it once you are on the site.
www.klove.com

 

[Remus]

If you are a "selfish" believer, you are not a true believer. - Is that p.c. enough for you Remus ??!!

Dont push it!

you've just had a warning about your conduct on this thread, calm down abit, not everyone agree's with you, you should accept that instead of insulting thier intelligence and why not debate in a less confrontational manner eh?

"nobody expects the spanish inquisition!"

 

[LA-girl]

If salvation is by faith, do good works matter?

Obviously, the New Testament has a great deal to say about the sort of people we should be and the good works we should do. However, it is also very clear that these should be the consequence of our relationship with God, and are not the means by which we enter into that relationship. After declaring that we are saved "by faith" and "not by works", Paul goes on in the next verse to say, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works..." (Ephesians 2:8-10). He wants us to submit to him so he can then work on us and produce "Something Beautiful for God" (as Malcom Muggeridge entitled his book on Mother Theresa).
One of the metaphors used in the New Testament to describe both character and behaviour is that of "fruit".
Jesus said, "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).
In other words, the good works that are acceptable to God are those which grow out of a right relationship with him.

Jesus said "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)

Like I have said earlier I don’t think you have real faith if the faith does not make you want to do good things. But I think you need God/Jesus/The Holy Spirit (Trinity) in your heart no matter how good your intentions are…
I see that you Zosima have another view in this, and I respect that, but I do not respect that you do not let me have mine!

 

[LA-girl]

Hi again Zosima! I don't find anything here to contradict what I just wrote. The way I see it is if good works are not a result of your faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit then you do not have real faith. Because when you are saved through grace, God/ Jesus/Holy spirit will come into your heart and you want to do good works. Good works are a result of having God/Jesus/Holy Spirit in your heart. I think the message is; you need help from God/Jesus/Holy Spirit in your life in order to get saved, you can not make it on your own.

No one can be good and do good unless God's grace first makes him good; and no one becomes good by works, but good works are done by him who is good. Just as the fruits do not make the tree, but the tree bears the fruit...Therefore all works, no matter how good they are and how pretty they look, are in vain if they do not flow from grace.

To sum up, we could say that if our faith does not have some effect on our lives in terms of both love for God and love for others, then something is deficient in our faith. James put it more bluntly, "faith without works is dead" (i.e. not real faith at all - James 2:26).

http://www.christianity.co.nz/faith5.htm

I think we have made our point in this discussion!

 

[romeno82]

i think that the bible has NOTHING to do with god! If i read the bible i think that a sane mind cant just beliefe what they say. Besides it was written for the people for 2000 years ago. Language changes in 100 years alot not to speak in 2000. Ther is a lot of simbolism that today has no longer a meaning. Not to speak about chrstian education who tries to manipulate a young spirit in beeing all the time nice. If you cant be pissed off sometimes it takes to frustration which take to anger, depression, fear and so forth. What christian education really tries to do is to eliminate a vital function of you: discharging the negative energy. What is very very very dangerous for your mind.

READ THIS: A true sane spirit is gently and friendly in its natural state and when it comes to be angry he is. But by far the most of the time he is friendly and happy. Believe me


So throw the bible in the closet and burn pope´s kalendar and get back to innocence of the spirit