Being a man

[Charmed]

Even when I am with guys - they all talk it up.

Well of course they do this, that's how they build their egos.

Being loud and obnoxious doesn't mean you're strong, just means you are hiding your insecurities.

Being outgoing is one thing, but having to always show how 'awesome' you are just shows how insecure you really are if you feel the need to constantly show off. But this is how most people are though.

What about kindness, tolerance and sincerity...?

Well, in today's society if you are kind then you are essentially seen as a doormat; especially if you give off the 'nice guy' aura that I do.

 

[thor01]

I agree with the original post. That is is silly to have these "roles" to fulfil! Atleast in other peoples expectations. Ive never felt easy with it and able to "fulfil". And I am not trying to, to be honest haha.

I would say regardless if you´re a man or a woman, just be yourself. It´s the only thing we can do anway, so it´s useless to envy the opposite sex. I could often say that the men have it easier, for example if they travel alone, but I can´t be a man so I have to deal with what I have. I could also say that men have it easier because they tend to be less emotional or sensitive so that they have room for more useful things instead ::. Etc. I don´t regret being a woman, I would just very much like to be a better woman .

As for doing the first move, I read somewhere that it´s women who have it more difficult, because they have to initiate it with giving out nonverbal cues. Which I have no idea about as I guess I am quite backwards in this area, but can be true. Anyway I do just things which come to me naturally so I would never attempt things which are not natural to me, like artificial dating attepts for example. But if someone naturally interests me, I talk to them, maybe even initiate it and don´t care if I am a woman.

I agree with this too. That all we can do is be ourselves or be ourselves and work on how we want to be, weather that be in line with these "roles" or not. I know for me it isn't. And to be honest I'm glad about that haha.

And its good that you have that approach to "innitiating". I think people should decide what they want to do in a moment rather than think what would my "gender role" do.

 

[SilentBird]

A man or a woman can be anything. People are endlessly diverse. Unfortunately we are taught to be the same. If you can't be or won't be what you are taught it's pretty damn difficult. But if you are sensitive or different, there are people like you. It's up to you to find them. There's room in this world for all sorts.

 

[KiaKaha]

but i do know that not ALL parts of society are like this

So which parts of society aren't like it? Maybe I will move there. I doubt it would probably be any westernized society.

I have always been fairly attracted to demure women. I dont think I am going to find that where I am. Everyone seems to think that they are all that... both men and women... I find modesty to be very attractive, but it seems that modesty and being humble is...I dont know... frowned upon? Is this another construct of social conditioning....? I am just noticing how incredibly dumb everything is. I dont know if people grow out of it... I am looking at this dating forum website... and there is a broad spectrum of people talking themselves up with an almost unreasonable sense of entitlement... I cant believe the utter trash that I am reading...from both genders.

Going into the forum... its all about status, money and good looks, and its all sugar coated.... I mean is this an indication of how people really are...?

The more I think about it - the more I feel I have nothing to offer another human being. Everything is faster, better, stronger - more and more and more. You can never falter, never be wrong, never be weak.... always be in control, always be better than everyone else.... society is so critical and quick to judge and dismiss at those who seem like they are not worth it....and its expectations is just making me feel worthless...

I am not suprised that suicide, depression, mental illness and general unhappiness is so prevalent. I swear... we are destroying ourselves from the inside out.

Perhaps it wouldnt be so bad if people had the balls to be more honest... but that would just make people feel bad about themselves. Self preservation and saving face seems to be the only thing that matters.

 

[MikeyC]

I find modesty to be very attractive, but it seems that modesty and being humble is...I dont know... frowned upon?

There's a difference between modesty and worthlessness. I don't think it's frowned upon.

Going into the forum... its all about status, money and good looks, and its all sugar coated.... I mean is this an indication of how people really are...?

That forum you're looking at doesn't show people under normal circumstances. They have to talk themselves up and offer what they have, and even try to exacerbate/exaggerate/bend the truth a little bit so that they can seem more attractive to the opposite sex, who are comparing their profile to many others. I mean, this would happen in real life, too, but not to the extent of that forum.

The more I think about it - the more I feel I have nothing to offer another human being. Everything is faster, better, stronger - more and more and more. You can never falter, never be wrong, never be weak.... always be in control, always be better than everyone else.... society is so critical and quick to judge and dismiss at those who seem like they are not worth it....and its expectations is just making me feel worthless...

Believe it or not, I have these exact same feelings. However, you're looking at this from a superficial point of view. Also think of it in terms of what you want: you say everyone wants someone better. Would you like to date a girl with an IQ of 200? A girl with the biggest chest? I'll assume not. Most people are not looking for absolute perfection, and anyone with common sense will know that everyone has flaws.

Having said all that, I don't exactly practice what I'm preaching because I don't feel like I have anything to offer, especially to girls. I can totally feel your pain, my good friend.

 

[Richey]

Every male boss i have ever had has had that very solid build and lucky with natural almost movie star looks, (square jaw) as well as an over active ability to utilise their confidence, ego etc. Weirds me out but maybe that's why they lean towards being the entreuprenerial type. (hope i spelt that right)

I think that physical confidence can be a huge advantage in that sense because then it turns the person into a confident personality.

There is a theme there. I would say that it comes down to a good upbringing, good inherited genes. Personality that works well and fits into society well.

If you are a malnourished skinny, nerdy type then that can be good because you may not seem intimidating to people, so they may approach you more. But in terms of convincing people that you are the strong male tour de force of a group probably won't happen unless you have an incredible wit. It's also harder to attract females unless you can show that you are "Quietly confident". at least.

Its hard out there in many group environments, really hard and people are competitive.

All of what i typed above is what i've noticed in a cliched sense.

In the end its best not to think about it too much, just try to stay busy so you're not thinking about all these things that could make you feel worse. Keeping busy can atually cure things like SA and Anxiety because it means you are spending less time consumed with self defeating thoughts. etc..babbling.

So try to keep active with hobbies, things to do until bed time, this way you aren't falling into the trap of the mind working against you.

 

[Roman Legion]

People really buy into gender roles also because people are sold gender identity.. If we like to admit it or not, Madison avenue has a major impact upon how people see their gender. Just stop and look at the advertising that is everywhere. I use Teen Spirit deodorant because I like the way it smells, I don't buy into the '"for men" crap. The military even enforces gender roles such as heavily reduced female standards and male and female hair regulations.. Men must have short hair but women do not.. I say if it's good enough for women to have long hair, why not let the men too? It really irritates me that I have to keep paying for haircuts that I do not want! I don't like sports, I don't like TV, I don't like being agressive or any of the sterotypes about things you 'must do' to be a man. I am me, not a bloody role!

 

[coyote]

once you start thinking about blue cars you see them everywhere you look

even if only a fraction of the cars are blue - those are the ones you notice

 

[Lea]

The military even enforces gender roles such as heavily reduced female standards and male and female hair regulations.. Men must have short hair but women do not.. I say if it's good enough for women to have long hair, why not let the men too? It really irritates me that I have to keep paying for haircuts that I do not want! I don't like sports, I don't like TV, I don't like being agressive or any of the sterotypes about things you 'must do' to be a man. I am me, not a bloody role!

As for the military, I would quite understand it, because its nature is to supress individuality and not promote it. It needs people who don´t think for themselves, but carry out orders efficiently.

 

[KiaKaha]

once you start thinking about blue cars you see them everywhere you look

even if only a fraction of the cars are blue - those are the ones you notice

Maybe blue cars are preferred because they are equipped with the latest safety features and a smooth running engine. Whereas ever other colour has substandard features and break down easily and are therefore are easily discarded.

 

[MsBuzzkillington]

There are definite gender roles that we are taught, there is no doubt about that. But it doesn't mean that we have to abide by those rules and it doesn't mean that everyone desires that "ideal man" or "ideal woman."

I find it sort of interesting that you mentioned that you are attracted to demure woman. I will be honest I had to look that one up, and it says demure is shy, modest and reserved. That is a VERY "womanly" trait. Girls are taught to be quiet, reserved, and timid. We are supposed to be the weak ones. You mention how you are annoyed/angered by the fact that so many women seem to want the strong man who is the alpha male type and want to know why they don't want the others. What about the strong, confident assertive women? It seems like you find that as a huge turn off. There is nothing wrong with liking more reserved women, we all have our tastes. But maybe if you look at it from that point of you, you will see that it isn't really a terrible thing that girls are attracted to these guys.

There are plenty of girls who like the quiet, timid guys. I personally don't like the really loud, aggressive guys with huge egos. I don't like the big, tall and buff guys either. Confidence is different from cockiness and arrogance. The first one is a turn on the later two are turn offs. People like kindness, tolerance and sincerity. What they don't like is someone who is always down on themselves or someone who expresses not being good enough or being angry at not fitting the mold. Oh, people like when someone is humble. But it is also okay to be proud of yourself sometimes and talk about your accomplishments or the things you have. In a way it is sad that we are sometimes conditioned into thinking we can't boast about something we are proud of because it will be seen as "showing off." Being humble is good, saying that you aren't good enough or speaking negatively about yourself is not. It is more negativity being frowned on than humbleness.

I am on a dating site and sometimes I will see a guy I find fairly attractive. I will read through his profile and he will seem like a guy I could get along with. Then he will go onto some rant about how he is sick of girls who only like jerks and if you are going to be a superficial girl like that then don't bother. Or some rant about how they are a nice guy and they are sick of girls who don't like nice guys. I usually get turned off and don't message them.

I am not trying to attack you for your feelings, because I know what it is like to not feel like you fit in. I know what it feels like to feel like you aren't what the opposite sex wants and only if you were bigger. stronger, richer, faster you would be more desirable (or whatever traits are wanted).

But someone is going to like you for you, there is just no doubt about it, so try and work on feeling like you aren't good enough. You have to learn how to be proud of who you are and learn to love yourself. If you try and change your self or try to fit some mold of what society tells you then you aren't going to find the girl who is right for you because you aren't being true to who you are.

Also, as far as the blue car thing goes... not sure what that is really referring to. But not everyone likes the super fancy, brand new cars. Some people like to stick with classics. Some people like to stick with something that is more reasonable and sensible, especially if the less fancy one is cheaper. Not that latest fashion or the biggest new fancy car with the super fancy new features.

 

[Waybuloo]

There are definite gender roles that we are taught, there is no doubt about that. But it doesn't mean that we have to abide by those rules and it doesn't mean that everyone desires that "ideal man" or "ideal woman."

I find it sort of interesting that you mentioned that you are attracted to demure woman. I will be honest I had to look that one up, and it says demure is shy, modest and reserved. That is a VERY "womanly" trait. Girls are taught to be quiet, reserved, and timid. We are supposed to be the weak ones. You mention how you are annoyed/angered by the fact that so many women seem to want the strong man who is the alpha male type and want to know why they don't want the others. What about the strong, confident assertive women? It seems like you find that as a huge turn off. There is nothing wrong with liking more reserved women, we all have our tastes. But maybe if you look at it from that point of you, you will see that it isn't really a terrible thing that girls are attracted to these guys.

There are plenty of girls who like the quiet, timid guys. I personally don't like the really loud, aggressive guys with huge egos. I don't like the big, tall and buff guys either. Confidence is different from cockiness and arrogance. The first one is a turn on the later two are turn offs. People like kindness, tolerance and sincerity. What they don't like is someone who is always down on themselves or someone who expresses not being good enough or being angry at not fitting the mold. Oh, people like when someone is humble. But it is also okay to be proud of yourself sometimes and talk about your accomplishments or the things you have. In a way it is sad that we are sometimes conditioned into thinking we can't boast about something we are proud of because it will be seen as "showing off." Being humble is good, saying that you aren't good enough or speaking negatively about yourself is not. It is more negativity being frowned on than humbleness.

I am on a dating site and sometimes I will see a guy I find fairly attractive. I will read through his profile and he will seem like a guy I could get along with. Then he will go onto some rant about how he is sick of girls who only like jerks and if you are going to be a superficial girl like that then don't bother. Or some rant about how they are a nice guy and they are sick of girls who don't like nice guys. I usually get turned off and don't message them.

I am not trying to attack you for your feelings, because I know what it is like to not feel like you fit in. I know what it feels like to feel like you aren't what the opposite sex wants and only if you were bigger. stronger, richer, faster you would be more desirable (or whatever traits are wanted).

But someone is going to like you for you, there is just no doubt about it, so try and work on feeling like you aren't good enough. You have to learn how to be proud of who you are and learn to love yourself. If you try and change your self or try to fit some mold of what society tells you then you aren't going to find the girl who is right for you because you aren't being true to who you are.

Also, as far as the blue car thing goes... not sure what that is really referring to. But not everyone likes the super fancy, brand new cars. Some people like to stick with classics. Some people like to stick with something that is more reasonable and sensible, especially if the less fancy one is cheaper. Not that latest fashion or the biggest new fancy car with the super fancy new features.

A great post, and in reference to your last bit about cars, I am not a sucker for flashy cars either. I like to dress well and stand out in that way, and like that in the guy I am with, but cars are a whole different story. I like audis because they look understated sophisticated, and I also know that they are reliable. Is that what you mean by classic? Or do you mean fossils? If I have a car I would probably drive a Volkswagon or a mini. When there's the occassional sports style car speeding down the road with really loud noises, most pedestrians look on disdainfully.

 

[OceanMist]

I have been doing some thinking about what it means to be a male - and I realized, that I think the first thread I made on this forum was about whether or not males have it worse off than females (easy now people... easy...) when it comes to fulfilling our gender role.

There is no question it's harder for males when it comes to fulfilling our gender role. The man is expected to do more than the woman in a lot of aspects of life including dating, asserting oneself, working, socially and even sexually in the bedroom.

I wonder this because when it come to issues like depression or shyness, it seems to me at least, that it is more of a weakness than if it were to a female, and I come to this conclusion based on societies gender roles for males.

This is definitely true. There is actually a good explanation given by Dr. Gilmartin that you can look up where he talks about love shy guys and he explains why it's harder for us because of gender roles.

I am not saying these are rules, I know its a generalization - but the fact remains that there is some truth. Men are expected to be strong, to provide and to protect... to be bold and in control.... to be competitive...all the while still being emotionally available to those who need them.

Yes, that's a big one there, men tend to be expected to make something out of themselves (make money, get a woman and marry her be able to provide for her and the children). Men are always supposed to be in control and even be able to fight if need be.

We are even expected to make the first move when it comes to dating (and do you have any idea how completely and utterly terrifying that is?)

Yep, the first move is more than just making the first move too. In dating, men have all this pressure, they have to display social confidence, social status and even money in many cases. They are also expected to control things such as planning dates and leading conversations (which is weird considering women tend to be more talkative?)

Even I find it a little distasteful if I see a guy who is being a complete pussy over something - but then I stand back and wonder...why...? Why do I think that this guy is weak...? Is it because I have been conditioned to believe men should play a particular role?

That's human nature to look at a man and think he's weak if he is being a complete coward. I think we were all born with that messed up mindset. In order to be more open minded we must adapt and not just be impulsive to human nature. I've learned to usually not lash out if a guy is being afraid of something.

I think human nature has some flaws that we need to train ourselves to get rid of. Our culture should strive to be more accepting of others who are different.

 

[coyote]

the analogy about the cars referred to being hyper-sensitive/aware of particular things in your environment which makes them seem to stand out in greater contrast than their actual numbers might otherwise warrant

in my daily life, i honestly, very rarely run up against this whole chest-thumping alpha-male positioning phenomenon that so many members describe as encountering everywhere they go

i'm not suggesting that it doesn't exist, because i do know that it does, and i've run up against it on many occasions - but i don't lately

and i wonder if it's because i just don't think about it that much (being more confident in my own "manliness" as i get older)

so then i wonder if perhaps it's not something that isn't nearly as bad as we perceive it to be when we're hyper-sensitive to it

 

[OceanMist]

Also - I have been pursuing a dating forum (not a dating site... I gave up on that avenue of pleasure sometime ago...but I digress) and even there I see the kind of traits that women tend to find attractive.... Tall, strong, financially stable, independent, physically attractive, confident, dominant, powerful.

Yes, I've found that even dating sites can be frustrating at times. I'm not even bad looking and I've had to message hundreds of women just to get about 5 different women to date me, which was a vast, vast improvement for me though.

Still, the point is that I had to try all those women and women usually don't respond. There was one time during the online dating where I sent about 50 messages in a row all to different women and got about 1 or 2 responses.

It doesn't matter where you go, a bar, party or online dating forum.....women will have the same high standards and be looking for the same stuff, mainly social confidence, social status, financial status and looks.

It all tells me that men have a specific role to fulfill - a difficult one. It tells me that people are not as forgiving and as kind to males who do not fit these kinds of traits.

I hate to say it, but society doesn't favor shy men like me. I've had numerous situations where I have been treated inferior just because I'm a shy guy. What's funny is I'm kind of just used to the bad treatment. Now I just try to find the few who enjoy my company and be around those people when I want to be around people, which isn't as often as others.

Even when I am with guys - they all talk it up, its a constant game of one upmanship - illustrating these aforementioned attributes.

Men are really bad with the oneupmanship crap. There is something inside of us men that makes us always want to compete. It can either be great because it can get us a bunch of stuff or it can be our downfall if we get greedy and want everything and don't get much.

Anyway, I stopped caring about that competition crap. I have just found that we should please ourselves and not worry about being better than anyone. Worrying about not being good enough isn't living.

*Like I said - I know these are generalizations and not rules - but there has to be truth in it - generally speaking. What constitutes as failure being a man..? Poor, physically weak - unemployed.....unattractive...?

What about kindness, tolerance and sincerity...?

There is truth to it. A lot of society tends to look at what a man has on the outside as opposed to who he is on the inside. The man who talks the most and the loudest will get more respect than the quiet man even if the quiet man's personality is more kind and sincere than the loud guy.

Like I said, we need to find people that aren't shallow and enjoy their company. It does seem like finding people that aren't shallow is becoming harder nowadays.

 

[kilojoule]

To respond to what you wrote kia about what women find attractive...

I dont think there is a formula for attraction. You might think that you'd be attracted to one type of person. But then somebody comes along. And they dont tick any of those boxes. And they're so attractive you'd pick them a million times over what you had previously thought would be attractive.

 

[kilojoule]

As for this whole roles/standards thing... Choose your own. People will only expect you to behave how they see you behave.

 

[razzle dazzle rose]

I am on a dating site and sometimes I will see a guy I find fairly attractive. I will read through his profile and he will seem like a guy I could get along with. Then he will go onto some rant about how he is sick of girls who only like jerks and if you are going to be a superficial girl like that then don't bother. Or some rant about how they are a nice guy and they are sick of girls who don't like nice guys. I usually get turned off and don't message them.

Yes, same here. It makes me uncomfortable to see so much hostility toward women. Actually, it angers me because it is so unfair. We don't owe anyone anything. Anyway, we all have our issues and problems, but to say one gender has it harder or easier doesn't really make sense as it doesn't solve anything and it can't be measured anyhow. We all have it hard.

 

[kilojoule]

^ oh I have to agree with missbuzz and razzledazzle that guy is really annoying. No girls like that guy.

 

[KiaKaha]

There are definite gender roles that we are taught, there is no doubt about that. But it doesn't mean that we have to abide by those rules and it doesn't mean that everyone desires that "ideal man" or "ideal woman."

I find it sort of interesting that you mentioned that you are attracted to demure woman. I will be honest I had to look that one up, and it says demure is shy, modest and reserved. That is a VERY "womanly" trait. Girls are taught to be quiet, reserved, and timid. We are supposed to be the weak ones. You mention how you are annoyed/angered by the fact that so many women seem to want the strong man who is the alpha male type and want to know why they don't want the others. What about the strong, confident assertive women? It seems like you find that as a huge turn off. There is nothing wrong with liking more reserved women, we all have our tastes. But maybe if you look at it from that point of you, you will see that it isn't really a terrible thing that girls are attracted to these guys.

There are plenty of girls who like the quiet, timid guys. I personally don't like the really loud, aggressive guys with huge egos. I don't like the big, tall and buff guys either. Confidence is different from cockiness and arrogance. The first one is a turn on the later two are turn offs. People like kindness, tolerance and sincerity. What they don't like is someone who is always down on themselves or someone who expresses not being good enough or being angry at not fitting the mold. Oh, people like when someone is humble. But it is also okay to be proud of yourself sometimes and talk about your accomplishments or the things you have. In a way it is sad that we are sometimes conditioned into thinking we can't boast about something we are proud of because it will be seen as "showing off." Being humble is good, saying that you aren't good enough or speaking negatively about yourself is not. It is more negativity being frowned on than humbleness.

I am on a dating site and sometimes I will see a guy I find fairly attractive. I will read through his profile and he will seem like a guy I could get along with. Then he will go onto some rant about how he is sick of girls who only like jerks and if you are going to be a superficial girl like that then don't bother. Or some rant about how they are a nice guy and they are sick of girls who don't like nice guys. I usually get turned off and don't message them.

I am not trying to attack you for your feelings, because I know what it is like to not feel like you fit in. I know what it feels like to feel like you aren't what the opposite sex wants and only if you were bigger. stronger, richer, faster you would be more desirable (or whatever traits are wanted).

But someone is going to like you for you, there is just no doubt about it, so try and work on feeling like you aren't good enough. You have to learn how to be proud of who you are and learn to love yourself. If you try and change your self or try to fit some mold of what society tells you then you aren't going to find the girl who is right for you because you aren't being true to who you are.

Also, as far as the blue car thing goes... not sure what that is really referring to. But not everyone likes the super fancy, brand new cars. Some people like to stick with classics. Some people like to stick with something that is more reasonable and sensible, especially if the less fancy one is cheaper. Not that latest fashion or the biggest new fancy car with the super fancy new features.

Just to be clear - I dont harbour any hostility toward women - I cant speak for any other guy, but I have a pretty good attitude to treating ALL people with some degree of respect. Nor am I suggesting that one gender has it harder than the other.... all of us have our cross to bear.

These kinds of threads I feel I have to be very very careful in case what I say gets taken the wrong way and that it may be perceived as 'attacking' which is not what I am trying to do. I love women... I really really do. Dont get me wrong... I cherish them, and even now...through social conditioning and gender identity... I feel like I want to take care of them, and protect them.....because it makes me feel masculine....but you know, I feel like I cant - I feel like I am not the kind of guy that people see as someone that is strong or authoritative....and I go right back to my first point... Yeah.. I am shy, sometimes I lack confidence and I doubt myself...but dont we all...? So why is it that these traits seemed to be judged on so harshly? Where does that come from...?

Now...

as it almost always is with every single post I make on this forum - I come to conclusions based on how I interpret the world. If I am so wrong, where did I get these conclusions to begin with...? I keep seeing evidence that tells me my conclusions are correct.... there must be some truth to it...generally speaking...surely...?

I dont want to turn this into a "why dont women like nice guys" thread. Been there... turns to crap and everyone feels bad, but I still believe that shyness/confidence is judged more harshly by everybody if you are a male - and its all because of gender roles and identity.

And while we are on the subject of confidence.... what is the difference between confidence and arrogance anyway? People are always telling me to be more confident ... but no one ever defines what confidence means...and why is it so important to begin with? Why is THAT the one thing that matters so much.

Look... I think I should just leave it here... because every sentence I start I have a feeling that I am just going to come across like a complete misogynistic douche... lets just say that for some reason, I am never going to make the grade... because I never do. I dont know why... I feel like I have nothing to offer, and I think the reason is because I dont fit into they typical "strong, secure - I can take care of you" mould. Observable evidence suggests to me that there is always something 'better' if you have the power to attain it.

btw this isnt just about women either - its about men reacting toward other men - I dont have any male friends because I am not a typical guy - guys cant relate to me.... I dont know anything about cars or rugby or drinking beer ... I use please and thank yous and am interested in talking about the way people feel.

This thread is doing my head in because I cant express what I want to say without the risk of coming across like a complete dickhead.