Yall will hate me for this post

[S_Spartan]

Most of the people in this thread have been ranting about how feminists are irrational authoritarians who want to control/ruin everyone's lives... and what kicked it off was a rant about how boys these days are basically doormats who refuse to behave like they're apparently supposed to.

And THAT is the big double standard. Men are still expected to act a certain way while feminists insist that women should be able to act ANY way they want.
They want it both ways. Either there are gender defined roles or there isn't but they pick and choose.

If you don't want to be accused of being something negative, maybe you should refrain from participating in these

I wasn't speaking about myself. I don't really care if people think I'm a misogynist or whatever. But a lot of guys see an accusation like that as an attack on their "honor". Or at the very least are afraid it will hinder them from getting laid.

 

[kilojoule]

Feminism was a necessary and important movement but the world has changed and the problems of gender equality have become more complex and feminism falls short.

When feminism came about, society put everyone in one of two boxes. If you were male, you go in box 'A' and could do 'this'(insert stereotypical male things to do). If you were female you go in box 'B' and could 'that'(insert stereotypical female things to do) Feminism said the people in box 'B' could do the same things as the people in box 'A' OR/AND the things in box 'B'

Great.

But

Hopefully society now recognizes that its not just about putting men or women into box 'A' or box 'B'. Gender is complex and for many, gender is not just a case of what physical biological features one is born with.

Feminism doesn't really help here.

"When individuals or groups do not “fit” established gender norms they often face stigma, discriminatory practices or social exclusion – all of which adversely affect health. It is important to be sensitive to different identities that do not necessarily fit into binary male or female sex categories. "
-taken from WHO

Feminism is not equipped to deal with gender inequality in this age. Gender equality is complex. Gender is complex. I think feminism served an important purpose but right now gender equality is a bigger issue than feminism can handle. Feminism doesn't represent everybody's best interest and I don't think it wants to, if it did, it would at the very least have a name change.


EDIT* also I would like to point out that most laws and courts are biased against fathers. I don't see too many (though I have heard of one) feminist groups petitioning for equal rights for fathers. Generally a single woman has automatic sole custody of her child and the father has to go through a long drawn out process through the courts to even get access if she denies it. Feminism isn't too concerned with equal rights here.

So I feel it served a purpose but its a bit outdated now. A new movement is needed to promote equal rights for all people ...one that isn't centred around gender.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

EDIT* also I would like to point out that most laws and courts are biased against fathers. I don't see too many (though I have heard of one) feminist groups petitioning for equal rights for fathers. Generally a single woman has automatic sole custody of her child and the father has to go through a long drawn out process through the courts to even get access if she denies it. Feminism isn't too concerned with equal rights here.

So I feel it served a purpose but its a bit outdated now. A new movement is needed to promote equal rights for all people ...one that isn't centred around gender.

If you don't mind me pointing out something as well, father rights is not the feminist fight. If we forget for a moment all the hysterical feminists screaming and showing up naked on tv and events, I think, at least this is the case in my surrounding, that feminists are people who looks at the past when women couldn't vote, couldn't choose law as a profession, and so on, realize that it was less than 50 years ago, aknowledge that we've come a long way but also think that we need to keep pushing in some areas and support women in countries where this fight has not been won yet.

Father rights is a whole other fight.

I don't see much of a difference between a women, a black and a father, all are fighting for their rights, and I think every one of them should keep doing it. But while they are busy fighting their own personal fight, if you blame the woman for not defending the father, the black for not defending the woman, the father for not defending the black, I think you're mixing things up.

 

[Strong]

I'm a feminist. I'm not violent or extreme. I'm not a lesbian or a man hater. I am also have egalitarian beliefs and am a minority.

I am a feminist because I believe that I should earn the same as my male counterparts and because I see how underrepresented women are in positions that are dominated by males.

Feminism for me is the understanding that there is work to be done in order for us to continue leveling the playing field for everyone, not just women.

Reminds me of hearing about the USA women's soccer team trying to get paid just as much as the men's. The women team actually won the championship. But the reality is that people pay more to see the men teams because it's usually faster and more exciting.

 

[Megaten]

Reminds me of hearing about the USA women's soccer team trying to get paid just as much as the men's. The women team actually won the championship. But the reality is that people pay more to see the men teams because it's usually faster and more exciting.

Yeah because everybody in any conceivable social group perfectly represents that group. Every Christian or Muslim you meet represents all of them. Every race of person you meet is exactly like every other member of that race. Every soldier or police officer are alike. Every man is alike and every woman is the same.

 

[kilojoule]

If you don't mind me pointing out something as well, father rights is not the feminist fight. If we forget for a moment all the hysterical feminists screaming and showing up naked on tv and events, I think, at least this is the case in my surrounding, that feminists are people who looks at the past when women couldn't vote, couldn't choose law as a profession, and so on, realize that it was less than 50 years ago, aknowledge that we've come a long way but also think that we need to keep pushing in some areas and support women in countries where this fight has not been won yet.

Father rights is a whole other fight.

I don't see much of a difference between a women, a black and a father, all are fighting for their rights, and I think every one of them should keep doing it. But while they are busy fighting their own personal fight, if you blame the woman for not defending the father, the black for not defending the woman, the father for not defending the black, I think you're mixing things up.

You're right father's rights isn't the feminists battle, that's my criticism of it, its too exclusive. Men definitely have a negative gender biased when it comes to parental rights. Fathers rights is a huge equal rights issue that is gender biased. Feminism claims to be about equal rights....but it is biased. Feminism has been important, necessary and extremely successful but it's too exclusive. It's really only for people who neatly fit into the outdated box 'B'....and society is not box 'A' and box 'B' anymore but feminism still sees things that way. A new movement is necessary something that does actually promote equal rights regardless of gender.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

Reminds me of hearing about the USA women's soccer team trying to get paid just as much as the men's. The women team actually won the championship. But the reality is that people pay more to see the men teams because it's usually faster and more exciting.

Hmmm but aren't male tennis player paid at least as much as female tennis player? Female tennis is way more popular.

 

[Odo]

Reminds me of hearing about the USA women's soccer team trying to get paid just as much as the men's. The women team actually won the championship. But the reality is that people pay more to see the men teams because it's usually faster and more exciting.

I would argue that people pay more to see men because men's sports are more heavily promoted.

 

[S_Spartan]

The only sport that I watch is men's college basketball. I tried watching women's basketball but I can't get into it because it lacks a certain intensity.

 

[Odo]

And THAT is the big double standard. Men are still expected to act a certain way while feminists insist that women should be able to act ANY way they want.

They want it both ways. Either there are gender defined roles or there isn't but they pick and choose.

I wasn't speaking about myself. I don't really care if people think I'm a misogynist or whatever. But a lot of guys see an accusation like that as an attack on their "honor". Or at the very least are afraid it will hinder them from getting laid.

You don't think women should be free to make their own demands, no matter how unreasonable you believe them to be? You don't think men have their own set of demands for what they want in a partner?

I mean, you're not talking about government policy here-- you're talking about sex, dating and marriage.
These are personal issues.

What you're saying here isn't so far removed from 'here is how you should act if you want a man to marry you'.

If you don't want to be what someone wants you to be, then don't be it... and if it continues to bother them, stop associating with them. But you REALLY can't blame feminism for certain women not being attracted to you.

 

[S_Spartan]

You don't think women should be free to make their own demands, no matter how unreasonable you believe them to be? You don't think men have their own set of demands for what they want in a partner?

I mean, you're not talking about government policy here-- you're talking about sex, dating and marriage.
These are personal issues.

What you're saying here isn't so far removed from 'here is how you should act if you want a man to marry you'.

If you don't want to be what someone wants you to be, then don't be it... and if it continues to bother them, stop associating with them. But you REALLY can't blame feminism for certain women not being attracted to you.

It is about more than sex and relationships.
For example, when I turned 18 I was required by law to register with the US government to be called for the draft if there was ever a war.
Yet my female peers were not and still are not required to register.
This is amongst all the "equality" talk that gets thrown around mightly these days.
Yet I don't see feminists marching for civilian women to be sent to war.
My point was and is that men are still expected to make sacrifices in many areas of life where women are not.
Some of the sacrifices are by law and some are implied.
Feminists pick and choose those things that benefit only women, that's understandable, but then they say that feminism is about equality for everyone. It is not.

 

[Razzlecherry]

I would argue that people pay more to see men because men's sports are more heavily promoted.

Womens sports aren't promoted as much because it's ****ing god awful compared to men's sports and nobody would watch it anyway.

Edit: Unless they were naked or something.

 

[Megaten]

It is about more than sex and relationships.
For example, when I turned 18 I was required by law to register with the US government to be called for the draft if there was ever a war.
Yet my female peers were not and still are not required to register.
This is amongst all the "equality" talk that gets thrown around mightly these days.
Yet I don't see feminists marching for civilian women to be sent to war.
My point was and is that men are still expected to make sacrifices in many areas of life where women are not.
Some of the sacrifices are by law and some are implied.
Feminists pick and choose those things that benefit only women, that's understandable, but then they say that feminism is about equality for everyone. It is not.

I understand what you're saying here. But that might not be the best example to use. Why would women want to protest to get the government to force them to register? It'll be like them saying "Im gonna make you force me to do things!". I think the main thing that would change this is not them stepping up and being equal with men, but men not looking at them as the weaker gender. Ive had other males tell me straight up that women had no place on the battlefield and that they wouldnt trust a woman to save them if they were injured in a gunfight.

 

[Pacific_Loner]

Maybe it's a mistake to say that feminism is defending gender equalities, because it seems everyone now expect them to defend everyone as well as women. Maybe Feminism is simply about defending women's rights. Not really sure why it makes people so unconfortable.

I understand what you're saying here. But that might not be the best example to use. Why would women want to protest to get the government to force them to register? It'll be like them saying "Im gonna make you force me to do things!". I think the main thing that would change this is not them stepping up and being equal with men, but men not looking at them as the weaker gender. Ive had other males tell me straight up that women had no place on the battlefield and that they wouldnt trust a woman to save them if they were injured in a gunfight.

Yes, women asking the government to apply the same injustice to them as applied to men would be a complete non sense. We are not that stupid. If men don't want to be forced to go to war, well, you protest, we'll support you.

However, about women not being the weaker gender, I think it's still important to recognize that physically, we ARE generally weaker. If I was in a battlefield and had to be carried by someone back to the base, I would have higher hopes for my survival if I was carried by a man of average size than if I was carried by a girl my size, lol.

 

[Megaten]

However, about women not being the weaker gender, I think it's still important to recognize that physically, we ARE generally weaker. If I was in a battlefield and had to be carried by someone back to the base, I would have higher hopes for my survival if I was carried by a man of average size than if I was carried by a girl my size, lol.

Haha dont back down now, I was about to get everyone to join the Navy :bigsmile:

 

[this_portrait]

While I don't support the draft for EITHER gender, I think it's common knowledge that, if the government were to decide to force women 18-25 to sign up for the selective service, they wouldn't automatically be expected to be in combat roles. There are a lot of military positions that don't involve being in combat, plus there are physical requirements that need to be met in order to be in that role. Unless the military lowers the standards (which would be a downright stupid and dangerous move), most women wouldn't meet them even if they wanted to. The Brienne Tarths among us are rare.

There's also a theory that even if women were required to sign up, and there actually was a draft, we'd see a big spike in pregnancies. Can't say that would surprise me.

 

[vj288]

.........................

 

[Kiwong]

I have looked at a popular Australian feminist's facebook page. It seems the battle between the sexes is so vitriolic from both sides. People spending hours trolling that goes on for pages. What a waste of life spending it dwelling on an angry debate that no one wins.

 

[Megaten]

I *think* that's his point? And by that I mean, being equal doesn't mean picking the things you like and leaving alone the things you don't, it's taking ALL of it, even stuff like registering for the draft. Or if a boat is sinking, gender shouldn't indicate who gets on the lifeboat first. There are perks to being a man as well as being a woman, and I think the idea is if someone were arguing for complete equality, it would mean removing these gender perks for both genders.

Thats why I said I understood what he was saying, but still dont think that was the best example. It would be like female sex offenders protesting for more prison time so they can be equal with men. A person fighting for "rights" isnt going to ask for something that sets them back. Then they'd had to fight to get that removed later. It makes more sense for the people negatively affected by a certain thing, to be the ones fighting against it. But men have been against the draft for generations. And I dont think its gotten far.

 

[Odo]

It is about more than sex and relationships.
For example, when I turned 18 I was required by law to register with the US government to be called for the draft if there was ever a war.
Yet my female peers were not and still are not required to register.
This is amongst all the "equality" talk that gets thrown around mightly these days.
Yet I don't see feminists marching for civilian women to be sent to war.
My point was and is that men are still expected to make sacrifices in many areas of life where women are not.
Some of the sacrifices are by law and some are implied.
Feminists pick and choose those things that benefit only women, that's understandable, but then they say that feminism is about equality for everyone. It is not.

Why do women have to fight to do something that no one wants to do? If you don't want to be sent to war, why don't you march for men not to be sent to war? Are feminists actively calling for men to be sent off to war against their will?