What RELIGION are you?

[itchy]

but that's not the point. The point was free will. God did not give you the choice to be brought into this world. God did not give you the choice to decide whether or not you wanted to be a part of the sin salvation dichotomy. It maybe that you would've chosen to take part in this game anyways, had you been given that choice, but other people might not have. ANd that choice was denied to them.

no, I see your point perfectly...how can I have free will if I didn't even have the choice to be born in the first place...its a good arguement, that I don't know the answer to just yet...but it seemed to me to be a bit of a "glass half full/ glass half empty" situation...I'm glad to be born...and how I got here isn't important to me, I'm here now so I may aswell make the most of it...that kinda thing...also, there are lots of things in life that we don't get to choose...our names for example, or the weather, but I think it's our reactions to these things that is important...I doubt this answer will satisfy you, and to be honest I'm not totally satisfied myself, so I'll keep thinking.

this may sound mean but I feel I should ask, is this kind of thing really the reason why you don't believe in God, or do you think there's a deeper reason why you're holding back? sorry if that sounds arsy but I had to ask!

and also, cLavian and you are both right about me bringing my personal experiences into things...it wasn't my intention to try to use my experiences as evidence of what I believe...my point I was trying to make is that my decision to follow God was not based on blind faith. I weigh up all my experiences in my life and try to come to the most logical conclusion that I can. I'm just looking for the truth, just like you.

well, yes. Yes it does mean we don't have free will. If God can see what you will do before you do it, then it is impossible that you can do other than what God forsaw that you would do. Or else you would be admitting that God cannot tell the future. He wouldn't be omnipotent. And if it is impossible that you can do other than what God forsaw that you would do, youre destiney is already set.

No, I don't quite agree with this. Imagine if you could see into the future...you see a person on a bike taking a journey...they take 2 lefts and a right, lets say...from the point of view of the person on the bike, he's cycling along, then when he takes his 2 lefts and right, at those moments he was free to do so...i.e. if he had decided to take 3 rights and a left, that's what you would've seen when you looked into the future...but whatever the biker decided to do, he was free to do so at the moment of doing so!...only you can see into the future to see what he does.....the next question is, with that knowledge, it'd be possible for you to distract the biker someway to change his decisions, and thus totally bodge up the whole time/ destiny thing....but I guess, because God's the only one who can see the future, and he's a god of love, he will not bodge things up. Yes he can see the future, but I still think we're free.

The reason why I compared God to a person with a gun pointing to your head is because God (at least of chrisitianity, islam, and judaism) chooses eternal damnation as a form oof punishment for sin. You can't get around that.

hmm..yea, no I still don't see it quite like that. I believe the analogy of God as light and darkness as the absence of God is correct. God didn't create evil, and I don't think it's God who sends us to hell, we send ourselves. But I do believe God is just and we will get punished for the bad we've done and rewarded for the good. But punishment is not nessaserilly a bad thing, it teaches us so that we learn and grow and become mature [that's what you were trying to get at wasn't it, Zipper?]

 

[Zipper]

I believe the analogy of God as light and darkness as the absence of God is correct. God didn't create evil, and I don't think it's God who sends us to hell, we send ourselves. But I do believe God is just and we will get punished for the bad we've done and rewarded for the good. But punishment is not nessaserilly a bad thing, it teaches us so that we learn and grow and become mature [that's what you were trying to get at wasn't it, Zipper?]

Yes -- is this what Christianity teaches, though? -- that divine judgment and punishment always has correction as its purpose and end? In other words, does Christianity teach that God's infinite wrath is remedial for the non-believing sinner who willingly yields himself to God's punishment?

 

[lawyerguy]

but that's not the point. The point was free will. God did not give you the choice to be brought into this world. God did not give you the choice to decide whether or not you wanted to be a part of the sin salvation dichotomy. It maybe that you would've chosen to take part in this game anyways, had you been given that choice, but other people might not have. ANd that choice was denied to them.

no, I see your point perfectly...how can I have free will if I didn't even have the choice to be born in the first place...its a good arguement, that I don't know the answer to just yet...but it seemed to me to be a bit of a "glass half full/ glass half empty" situation...I'm glad to be born...and how I got here isn't important to me, I'm here now so I may aswell make the most of it...that kinda thing...also, there are lots of things in life that we don't get to choose...our names for example, or the weather, but I think it's our reactions to these things that is important...I doubt this answer will satisfy you, and to be honest I'm not totally satisfied myself, so I'll keep thinking.

this may sound mean but I feel I should ask, is this kind of thing really the reason why you don't believe in God, or do you think there's a deeper reason why you're holding back? sorry if that sounds arsy but I had to ask!

and also, cLavian and you are both right about me bringing my personal experiences into things...it wasn't my intention to try to use my experiences as evidence of what I believe...my point I was trying to make is that my decision to follow God was not based on blind faith. I weigh up all my experiences in my life and try to come to the most logical conclusion that I can. I'm just looking for the truth, just like you.

well, yes. Yes it does mean we don't have free will. If God can see what you will do before you do it, then it is impossible that you can do other than what God forsaw that you would do. Or else you would be admitting that God cannot tell the future. He wouldn't be omnipotent. And if it is impossible that you can do other than what God forsaw that you would do, youre destiney is already set.

No, I don't quite agree with this. Imagine if you could see into the future...you see a person on a bike taking a journey...they take 2 lefts and a right, lets say...from the point of view of the person on the bike, he's cycling along, then when he takes his 2 lefts and right, at those moments he was free to do so...i.e. if he had decided to take 3 rights and a left, that's what you would've seen when you looked into the future...but whatever the biker decided to do, he was free to do so at the moment of doing so!...only you can see into the future to see what he does.....the next question is, with that knowledge, it'd be possible for you to distract the biker someway to change his decisions, and thus totally bodge up the whole time/ destiny thing....but I guess, because God's the only one who can see the future, and he's a god of love, he will not bodge things up. Yes he can see the future, but I still think we're free.

The reason why I compared God to a person with a gun pointing to your head is because God (at least of chrisitianity, islam, and judaism) chooses eternal damnation as a form oof punishment for sin. You can't get around that.

hmm..yea, no I still don't see it quite like that. I believe the analogy of God as light and darkness as the absence of God is correct. God didn't create evil, and I don't think it's God who sends us to hell, we send ourselves. But I do believe God is just and we will get punished for the bad we've done and rewarded for the good. But punishment is not nessaserilly a bad thing, it teaches us so that we learn and grow and become mature [that's what you were trying to get at wasn't it, Zipper?]

Hi itchey,

First of all thank you for responding to my arguments in a semi coherant logical fashion. All I ask in a discussion is that people provides logical reasons to support your answer.

You asked me if the free will argument I made was the reason why I don't believe in God? The answer is, only partly. The main reason I don't believe in God is because there is no emperical evidence for his existence.

All these arguments you make about God presumes that God does exist. You have yet to prove to me that premise. The arguments I make about free will, assumes, for arguments sake that he does exist. Thus I am saying "Even if your unproven premise is true, it does not hold because it is not even consistent with your other premises". Basically I am playing offense.


Like I said before, my disbelief in God has nothing to do with emotions or feelings or any bitterness. ALthough I do believe most people who believe in God base their beliefs upon their own subjective feelings and emotions.

The fact that the free will argument makes no sense, only means that the, christian/muslim/jewish version of God does not have any coherant internal consistency.

I'm not sure I understand your biker analogy. If I can see into the future, and if I had the ability to predict whether a person will make a left or a right turn at a particular intersection, then the person on the bike cannot do other than what I predict he would do. It might be possible that the biker would consider doing something that I had not preordained. But in the end, if I truly have the power to predict his actions, he could not do other than what I predicted he would do. It would be a certainty. Thus the biker might THINK, he had the free will to make a decision that went against my predictions, but in reality, he never had that option. Thus he had no free will. Or else I cannot be said to truly have the power to predict. If he does have the ability to do do an event that I have not predicted, then I really don't have the power to tell the future. The interjection of uncertainty into the equation would mean that I cannot be sure that my predictions would bare out.

God didn't create evil? I thought God was the creator of all things? If he didn't create evil then who did? satan? If you admit that God didn't create evil then you admit something else has the power of creation. So the power of creation is not exclusive to god. That would be a violation of one your other tenets.

Basically you argument boils down to "god didn't create evil. God gave human beings free will and human's/satan created evil" . . the problem with that argument is 1) by admitting that human beings/satan can create evil you are admitting that human beings have the power to create something that God did not intend (see above) or 2) or else you have to admit that evil was part of God's greater scheme or plan, at which point you must admit that God did intend evil to exist.

You said that punishment can be used to teach us things.


Punishment is one thing. Eternal damnation is another.

Punishment ceases to become "educational" when it reaches the point of infinite torture. Then punishment is just extreme overkill.




Zipper I respect your beliefs. ALthough I do not agree with you about the existence of God, your beliefs make more sense to me than the christians. They seem to play word games around the concept of eternal damnation in an attempt to downplay its importance to their theology. But they can't get away from the elephant in the room.

 

[Nytro]

oh snap!, agnostic again lol

 

[MarCPatt]

You can choose to not be part of the game buy just letting the person with the gun shoot. :roll:

 

[MarCPatt]

It is clear to me that some have chosen to not believe, it is choice and that is that. They can't change our way of thinking by burning all the bibles or churches in the world, just like we dont get through to them about why we believe.

 

[MarCPatt]

This topic can go on and on and on and people will still believe what they believe for their own reasons.

 

[MarCPatt]

Plus, this is not a court room, and even if it was, no one can prove that there is no God.

 

[Nytro]

Hey if the Bible is the way to God I want to know why it contradicts itself.

I want to find God, not what I would like God to be, but the true God. Its the Bible itself and the mixed meanings that keep me from turning to Christianity Ill only take in effect of what I beleive God to be which is good and infinetly inteligent, the rules of the Bible to me dont show me this inteligence but only human error and that goes for the author(s) of the book. Or perhaps one strange game of telephone with the true messages of God.

If the Bible made more scense of things and couldnt be debated like this then no one would have a problem in beleiving. Im only in search of the truth, why do other religions also feel a presence of God also? Could it be the mind playing tricks, due to the want for such a feeling that in effect it occurs?

No its highly unlikely to have no creator in all of this. But which representation of God is the truth?

 

[Peacefinder]

Hi Nytro,

I think a true scholar of the Bible that has read the entire Bible and knows the historical content of some of the times and books could answer you best.

But just curious, what contradictions do you see??

I think a lot of people are picking here and there from the Bible but no one has truly read the entire book....am I wrong? is there anyone that has read the entire thing, here?

I am currently trying to get through the whole thing but I don't konw alot about history and I think that is very important to understand some of the old testament.

 

[Lavinia84]

I have to say I think the problem is interpretation, after all its going on in this thread! My last post was typed when I was feeling scared and a bit defensive, but not angry. But without including stage directions or some such I can't really communicate my thoughts accurately to you all, and I'm bound to be misunderstood.

This goes for the Bible. On its own its just a collection of books, written by a bunch of guys who had something they wanted other people to know. Its what they thought. My reason for believing this goes something along the lines of....

If God(assuming there is one) wanted everyone to believe one faith, to just know all about him and have set rules the at the beginning of human life he'd have just given it to us, written, spoken, inate knowledge whateva.

Fact is thats not how it works. While most ask the question is there a God, there is no one, definative source for an answer. Everyone is free to have an opinion, and no one can tell you your wrong.

I know a lot of Christian groups say Jesus is the only way. they quote:

"I am the way the truth and the light, no one can come to the father except through me"

However... the greek word for through was "dia" and can also mean "by means of"
So where they say belief in Jesus is the only way, because he said through me, literally/physically through being of one body with him, ie by believing in Jesus. But what was written could mean something else.

It could mean by means of his words, his deeds, the inspiration he gives, his death, his resurrection etc. Theres no one answer, least of all that belief is the only way. Also you can't prove Jesus ever said it, its reported speech.


There are contradictions in the Bible because people wrote it, and they had different ideas.

In the Old Testament God is described as jealous and vengeful, but the New testament says God is all loving and forgiving, big contradiction. So this causes problems for people who want to take the Bible literally...ergo don't! Try to read it thinking about what the aim/purpose of the author is. In the first 5 books of the Old Testament the aim was to give the Israelites a history(these books were NOT written by Moses, but hundreds of years after "his" time when the Israelites were captives in Babylon). Heres something you can do...

read Genesis 1:26-28...it basically says" god creates mankind, male and female, go forth and have babies"

read Genesis 2:7- god takes some soil and creates Adam the 'first' man
read Genesis 21-22- god creates woman, Eve, from Adam

so contradiction anyone?
read Genesis 2: 24- thats why man leaves home to 'unite' with his wife, ie cause they used to be one being.

This is called an aetiological myth, a story made up to explain why things are the way they are...its not meant to be a literal account of the creation of the world, its meant to explain the world the Israelites lived in.

 

[Nytro]

James 1:13 "Let no man say I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

or

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

VS.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
Jeremiah 15:6 "Thou hast forsaken me, saith the Lord, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary of repenting."
Genesis 6:6,7-- "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."

Jesus descended from which son of David?

Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
Nathan(Luke3:31)

How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?

By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)

And if you give a reasonable answer for all of this well how about this...

How did Judas die again? He hung himself or did he explode, lol

After he threw the money into the temple he went away and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5)

After he bought the field with the price of his evil deed he fell headlong and burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out (Acts 1:18)

Perhaps the religion is right but the Bible certainly isnt.

 

[Lavinia84]

Also for the fun of it: Plato's theory of Forms

The idea is if you see a tree or a horse, you have no trouble identifying what it is. But think about it, every tree or horse is lightly different. So how do you come up with a definition of tree or horse. Would it not be a tree if it had no branches, or not a horse if it had only three legs?

Plato's theorized that beyond our world/ dimension whatever were the forms, the idea, the perfect example of everything we see. We can acess the forms with our minds. So when you see a four legged creature you identify it as horse beacuse it has the characteristics of the form "horseness". Likewise when you see an ugly horse, you see that it is a particularly bad example of the form horse, like it might have short legs, or no tail, but it is still and example of horse.

When you meet a good person, you might not be able to say exactly what it is about them that is good, like they might be good looking, or speak kindly etc. But you recognise in them an example of the form "goodness".
The theory states that the form itself is perfect, but in our world we only see imperfect copies of forms.

Like if asked to draw a cricle, you could never make a perfect circle, it would be crooked at a microsopic level, even if done with a printer its still made of dots, in lines. But we all understand the concept of perfect circle, and you can make on in your mind, but not in physical reality.

Imagine a Form of Goodness number line starting at -10 on the left ending at +10 on the right. Anything 0>10 is GOOD, -10<0 is BAD, =0 is neutral. Eveything you like, think is good or beautiful fits on this line, so do evil and hateful things. things <0 are not just bad copies of goodness, they are the antithesis of goodness, which we call bad. -10 things are the complete opposite of +10.

 

[Nytro]

Then the Bible cant be the Truth because of all the contradictions, who knows what Jesus really said or what really happened. Which leads to my point, is Christianity real because unless if im told otherwise, the Bible is perfect in everyway. I mean thats what finatics try to push on people, they must know their *^J*.

So how can we live our life by the "book" if in possiblilty much has been altered or taken out for mans gain. (Political, Power, Control)

Again it could be true events exagerated in a long game of telephone, I guess youll need faith for the Bible being true as well. :? Which is really all subjective anyway.

 

[Nytro]

Also for the fun of it: Plato's theory of Forms

The idea is if you see a tree or a horse, you have no trouble identifying what it is. But think about it, every tree or horse is lightly different. So how do you come up with a definition of tree or horse. Would it not be a tree if it had no branches, or not a horse if it had only three legs?

Plato's theorized that beyond our world/ dimension whatever were the forms, the idea, the perfect example of everything we see. We can acess the forms with our minds. So when you see a four legged creature you identify it as horse beacuse it has the characteristics of the form "horseness". Likewise when you see an ugly horse, you see that it is a particularly bad example of the form horse, like it might have short legs, or no tail, but it is still and example of horse.

When you meet a good person, you might not be able to say exactly what it is about them that is good, like they might be good looking, or speak kindly etc. But you recognise in them an example of the form "goodness".
The theory states that the form itself is perfect, but in our world we only see imperfect copies of forms.

Like if asked to draw a cricle, you could never make a perfect circle, it would be crooked at a microsopic level, even if done with a printer its still made of dots, in lines. But we all understand the concept of perfect circle, and you can make on in your mind, but not in physical reality.

Imagine a Form of Goodness number line starting at -10 on the left ending at +10 on the right. Anything 0>10 is GOOD, -10<0 is BAD, =0 is neutral. Eveything you like, think is good or beautiful fits on this line, so do evil and hateful things. things <0 are not just bad copies of goodness, they are the antithesis of goodness, which we call bad. -10 things are the complete opposite of +10.

And whats your point? That Christianity could also be an interpretation of God just like any other religion is?

 

[Lavinia84]

I didn't have a point, often I don't Someone else brought up Forms and the idea that Evil is a bad copy of the form Good, and is not itself a form. So i wanted to explain the thoery in an attempt to clarify the point

 

[Nick]

I think Christianity is a good, positive force in the world. It's helped me a lot. If you're going to knock it, at least provide intelligent reasons for doing so. Calling it a "parasite" without explaining how it is a parasite doesn't cut it.

 

[itchy]

I'm not sure I understand your biker analogy. If I can see into the future, and if I had the ability to predict whether a person will make a left or a right turn at a particular intersection, then the person on the bike cannot do other than what I predict he would do.

yea, I see your point, but I think maybe you're looking at it back to front...if you see the future first, then go back to the biker, it will seem like he has no choice, but if you begin from the bikers perspective and use this to determine what you'll see when you look into the future, I think free will is still there....i.e. if I choose to turn left, thats what you'll see when you look into my future, but if I turn right, it'll be THAT that you'll see...I still have the freedom of choice, you just happen to have the ability to foresee my choice...does that make sense? it's a complicated one.

God didn't create evil? I thought God was the creator of all things? If he didn't create evil then who did? satan? If you admit that God didn't create evil then you admit something else has the power of creation. So the power of creation is not exclusive to god. That would be a violation of one your other tenets.

no, I don't believe evil exists...that may sounds mental and I might be wrong but let me explain. Currently, the way I see evil is like darkness...darkness doesn't exist, its just the word we've given to what it looks like when there's no light. i.e. light can be measured for speed, intensity, etc...but you can't measure darkness, because it doesn't exist..it is only the absence of light. It's the same with heat and cold. you can measure heat. there's no limit, you can get hotter and hotter to super-heat, mega-heat, but going the other way you get to -273 degrees and you can't get any colder...because this point is the point of total absence of heat

The main reason I don't believe in God is because there is no emperical evidence for his existence.

I think analysing the prophecies may be the closest thing to proof of god you'll find. Consider this for example;

*“Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight
prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present
time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10 to the 17th.’ That would be 1 in
100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability,
Stoner illustrates it by supposing that ‘we take 10 to the 17th silver dollars and lay them
on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of
these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a
man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver
dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right
one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight
prophecies and having them all come true in any one man.’”Peter Stoner, Science Speaks

For anyone who's geniunely seeking the truth I'd really encourage you to look further into this cause this seems pretty blatant to me. If you're wondering about the validity of this statement you can read the book yourself here - http://www.geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.html - the foreword says this -
"The manuscript for Science Speaks has been carefully reviewed by a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation members and by the Executive Council of the same group and has been found, in general, to be dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented. The mathematical analysis included is based upon principles of probability which are thoroughly sound and Professor Stoner has applied these principles in a proper and convincing way."

 

[AnthonyJ31]

I just think that this theory that there is a divine penalty for the violation of God's law that God would render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute is the most mind-twisting cognitive system that has ever been devised. It just makes me furious to think of how many lives have been blighted by the chain letter that we call the Bible.

I agree....Once upon a time I was a "believer" in God and in the afterlife. I just believed because I was "supposed" to believe; and the thought of there being a heaven where I would one day be reunited with long-lost loved ones seemd so magical and enchanting. However, as I have grown older, I no longer believe as I once did. At this time I would label myself as an "Agnostic". I can't say for sure there is no God, but I can't say for sure there is one either. But I find alot of the stories and alot of the beliefs that are based upon the bible to be too wild to believe. I seriously question the validity of the bible and its origins. I'm supposed to believe that God dictated his words to man thousands of years ago and man somehow preserved everything he said in its entirety with no changes, revisions, add-ons, subtractions, e.t.c.? I just find that very hard to believe. And don't get me started on the concept of "hell". Worrying about God or the afterlife is bad enough, but when you throw hell into the mix, it becomes insane.

 

[Nytro]

I just finished that book science speaks, its looks as if the Bible did prove many of its prophecies, backed up with past and current events. But the whole point of damning people to eternal punishment doesnt make scense. So do good people like Gahndi, or Albert Einstein go burn in hell because they believed diffrently?

I liked how this site brought out Christianity, and messages of the Bible. http://www.meaning-of-life.info/index.html

But can it be said that this whole site is wrong based on a person (churches) speculations, many of the answers to many of my questions makes Christianity look very good. He helps take alot of stress and misery of how the Bible is percieved. The Bible tells things diffrently, so is this person wrong, or does the Bible not specifically descibe certain things so that people can make their own interpretations?