What RELIGION are you?

okay Lawyerguy, thanks, I will ask God to enlighten me more.

Let me just clear something up though. The God of Christianity is not the same God of other religions.

🙂

lawyerguy said:

Peace Finder I respect your beliefs,

But I dont think you read my post about free will. God is the person pointing the gun at you and forcing you to play a game you did not freely choose to play.

Before there can be any free will within the context of a situation, one must first have the free will to decide whether or not you want to be placed into that situation in the first place. That is the most important choice that you should have.

Because none of us chose to be born. None of us chose whether or not we wanted to be a part of the whole "sin/salvation" dynamtic. Being forced to choose between two options is just as a violation of your free will as being forced into accepting one option.

We do not have the free will to opt out of the sin salvation dynamtic according to the monotheistic religions. Therefore any "choices" we make in this world are akin to moving pieces on a checker board.

If a robber comes and points a gun at you and says. . "give me your money or your life?". . . would any choice you make from that decision be of your own free will? The robber is forcing you to make a decision based upon a threat to your person. Obviously any decision you make in that context could not have been made of your own free will. Or else, in a prosecution for the robbery of your property, the robber would be justified in saying . . "Sure I took the victim's money. However I offered him a choice, his money or his life. He chose to gave me his money. Therefore he gave me his money of his own free will."

That is not free will. That is coercion.

.

God is doing something infinitely worse to you by forcing you to make decisions based upon a threat to your eternal soul. The robber was only threatening your life. God is threatening to eternally punish your soul. That is coercion in infinite proportions.

The example you gave about the dying person choosing between medications and death is not analogous to the situation with God because there was no entity or person forcing the decision upon the dying person. incidently, I do not think that situation was an example of either coercion or free will.

Christians have never adequately explained to me why we should be punished for the "sins" of adam and Eve. Assuming that God was justified in punishing adam and eve in the first place (eating a forbidden apple seems to me like a pretty petty crime . . . and out of proportion to the punishment of potential ETERNAL DAMNATION), why should we inherit their sin? Being punished for another persons transgressions is violation of basic fundamentali principles of justice.

If my dad stole someone's property (he didn't, he's a very moral person). . that would be his crime not mine. Why should I be tainted for something I had no control over and which happenned eons ago?

Religious people do have it correct when they say that nothing can be absolutely proven or disproven. But that is an intellectually dishonest remark to make. Because that ignores the postulate that assertions CAN be give ranked on a hierarchy of probabilities.

Its true that nothing can be definitively proven or disproven. But some things are MORE probable than others. The criteria that makes something more probable than another is emperical evidence. The existence of my car is more probable than the existence of Robot warriors from space. Why? Because we have emperical evidence of the car. We do not have any independant emperical evidence of robots from space. We also do not have any independant emperical evidence of God or, santa clause, or the easter bunny either. Therefore God's probabilities of existing are on the same level of Santa Clause or Easter bunnies.

I do not mean to offend anyone by suggesting that the importance of God into your life is akin to the easter bunny. I am merely suggesting that, objectively speaking, there is no more independant verifiable evidence of his existence than for any other imaginary creature man has devised.

Hi Lawyerguy.I don't agree with alot you have to say but I fully understand what you are implying by the meaning of " Free will".I didn't choose to be here either.And when I was a kid there were times I would wish that I was never born.Why am I here etc.There have been times where I felt like just a puppet at the mercey of a puppeteer.I think this is one question that no one can answer.But something I would like to ask God one day.You have brought up some very good points.Why should we pay for the sin of Adam and Eve ? I still have questions in my mind too that need to be answered, but it will still not turn me against my belief in God.It will just add to the list of things I would like to ask him. 🙂

Peacefinder said:

God is Holy and Just. He cannot break his own laws, he must punish sin.

Christianity is essentially a word game where they try to convince you that the words "holy" and "just" somehow have to do with penal law enforcement rather than pedagogical law enforcement. But what if "holiness" means "virtue"? And what if "justice" means "correcting"?

If you reject the Christian's definitions of words, you can best escape being caught in their mental Chinese finger-trap. If you don't let them define the word "divine judgment" in a manner that, in a man, would be cruelty, then you have a chance of avoiding being caught up in their innane theology.

God judges me in the eternal world -- why on earth (if I care to leave my sins by God's punishment and if I trust God) would I want to avoid the operation of God's justice? I choose union with God -- I yield myself to the operation of God's infinite wrath because I have faith that God's holiness and justice are virtues rather than vices. I have faith that God punishes only and ever to amend. That is why I am a Neo-Platonist and Not a Christian -- Because Christianity and the Bible most definitely disagrees with me on these points.

So please keep to yourself your "Good News" of the schizoid notion of a God who kills God in order to satisfy the so-called justice of God. Your "Good News" of an infinite penalty that God would render upon non-believing sinners. Your "Good News" of a pardon that is available only to those who pretend to understand why it takes the slaughter of a sacrificial victim for God to pardon. We are way too sensitive, analytical, and honest for these fictions to be understood as anything different from aweful, bizarre, incomprehensible and demoralizing. If it's good news, then why does it suck?

And please recognize the gross recklessness and irresponsibility of a Christian coming to a social anxiety forum in order to teach us to understand the word "judgment" as being anything different than instructive and pedagogical. We are here to break down such notions of divine judgment, not to build them up.

I don't see God as this tyrant.

Then you haven't thought analytically and imaginitively even for one minute about this Christian doctrine in your mind: "Divine punishment for law-breaking for non-believing sinners." Ruminate on this for a moment and tell me what kind of images come to mind.

I don't dislike you, but I dislike the chain letter which has you under its control and is using you at this moment for its own purpose of survival, reproduction, and evolution. The name "Jesus" is the most feisty word on earth trying to pry itself into people's brains, and technology such as the internet just speeds up the rate at which the meme travels and evolves. I hate to come across as caustic and bitter, but the thing itself is very aggressive and sometimes you need to fight fire with fire.

Christianity is a thought that tells you that it is important to cognitively hold the thought in order to avoid a risk for which there is no evidence except the thought itself. Such thoughts should be HIGHLY critically scrutinized for being parasitic to human analytical capacities. Because we can see why they would function the way they do even if they were not true. The genuinely possibility is that they are cognitive systems that have no outside referents but perpetuate themselves by fear alone.

It may be that the very thing they recommend that the Christian avoid -- the operation of God's infinite wrath -- is the very means by which God would unite the non-believing sinner to himself. I have faith that this is true and thus choose to unite to God by yielding myself to his punishment which I trust to be transfiguring rather than penal.

But I suppose it is possible that God came down to earth to give us spyware v. 1.000 that can be transmitted with the vector of a tract left on a park bench. Just highly unlikely, and the alternative -- that it is a false chain letter just like all the others -- explains what we see in a much more comprehensive way.

Peacefinder said:

delusional mind?? Aren't we all in here because of that?? :lol:

😀 To a certain degree, sure. The biggest difference though is that we all know that SA is bad thinking! The Christianity delusion is more like someone who thinks he is Napoleon Bonaparte. He is incapable of seeing how unreasonable his belief is to everyone else. The only difference, in fact, is that so many people share the same delusion, thereby making it seem less weird than it really is.

And if there is a creator, why would such a highly advanced creature care about us? A being like that would probably be aware of us the way we are aware of microbes on the other side of the globe!

But all that is just speculation. I have more respect for Deists. They admit that God cannot be proven, but choose to believe in a creator and leave it at that. Discussing the details of God's will when even the basic premise is not proven (God's existence) is just silly.

Sorry, just to be clear when I said I didn't have a complete theory I was being sarcastic. I haven't really heard any theories on the meaning of life that I found believable, but it doesn't seem right to me that God (as I understand him) would let people suffer for eternity in some kind of Hell. But because I grew up with it I'm still stuck in the mindset of the 'test', that your actions in life determine your fate in the afterlife. So any suggestions are welcome.

Lavinia84 said:

Sorry, just to be clear when I said I didn't have a complete theory I was being sarcastic. I haven't really heard any theories on the meaning of life that I found believable, but it doesn't seem right to me that God (as I understand him) would let people suffer for eternity in some kind of Hell. But because I grew up with it I'm still stuck in the mindset of the 'test', that your actions in life determine your fate in the afterlife. So any suggestions are welcome.

Okay, so how about this:
Before we have established whether God actually exists at all, wouldn't you agree that trying to understand his position on the afterlife or how you should behave or any other discussion of God's opinion, is rather meaningless?

The same goes for the afterlife, of course. How can we say anything sensible about heaven and hell when it is not even likely that there is an afterlife, and even less so a heaven or a hell?

You see, you presume far too much.

On the topic of free will, here's how I see it.
God created us out of love so that he could love us and we could love him and so he could shower us with gifts and love and give us an eternity in heaven with him. But in order for a loving relationship God had to give us free will, so that we could choose to love him. [i.e. creating a robot to love wouldn't be much fun...it's when a person chooses to love you...thats what loves about]. But giving us free will allows for the possibility that some people may choose not to love God, but instead to do their own thing. Because loving God means you have to give up all those sins that make you feel good, and all your selfishness and pride and independence and control, and many people don't want to do this...[me included!!!]...it's hard...but we all have to choose between the light and the darkness...if we love the darkness then we are free to choose the darkness and there we shall remain forever, and if we love the light then we are free to choose the light and there we will remain forever. [just a thought, but who's to say that someone who loves the darkness and chooses the darkness won't be happy in the darkness forever?!...I haven't thought this thru yet...just a thought!]

But God is also a just God. He knows the hearts of all men. He knows exactly what everyone is thinking and feeling, and he knows exactly how to convey to you, in terms that you understand, this choice that you have to make...but he doesn't force anything because that's not a characteristic of love...i.e. forcing someone to love you isn't real love...but I believe somehow, in someway God will give everybody a fair trial.

also, another point to note is that God exists outside of time, so I don't know how he see's the world, but even though he can see into the future, I don't believe that means we don't have free will...and so, when he creates a person...in a way, god doesn't know what choices that person will make...he hopes the person will choose to love him, but the person might reject god...of course in the dimension of time God does know whats going to happen...but I think it's a hard one to explain...i.e. have you ever existed outside of time?...me neither!...I hope you can see what I'm getting at!]

so, I don't see god as a tyrant with a gun to my head, I'm thankful he brought me into the world so that he could lavish me with love, and I can love him in return.

to clavain,
I think its belief in the bible that causes discussion...cause if a person believes that the bible is true, then everything it teaches about god must be true. So the question is, why would someone believe in the bible?

well, I guess, for me, just like with anything in life, its a build up of many experiences...i.e. thats how reason works right? we consider things and think if this is true then this must be true, etc and we build our beliefs. here's some examples...if you walked into a building where all your unreligious friends were rolling around on the floor, some crying their eyes out, others laughing ecstatically, totally out of character, while most of everyone else is doing the same...and up the front people seem to be getting healed from diseases, and prophecy's are being blurted out [one of my mates went up the front when the preacher correctly guessed a problem with his toe that he hadn't told anyone...and days later when I spoke to him it had been healed]...and while all this is going on, you are feeling feelings you've never felt before, intense passion, and everybody's talking about this holy spirit chap. How would you react? Personally, this was one of my first religious experiences, and I'm a skeptical person, so I forced myself not to cry and controlled myself, and desperatly looked for rational explanations. Was it all a big act, that everyone but me was in on...well, I don't buy that. But what about, maybe, if there's some psychological explanation for it, like hypnosis or something...maybe a scientific explanation that I don't know the answer to just yet, but at least I can sleep better tonight...well maybe, or what about the explanation that it was God, sending his holy spirit upon the building?...I chose science at this point.

but it doesn't stop there...cause you continue to experience things that the bible explains very clearly, but science offers no explanation...like, what if you're getting deeper and deeper into the bible then one day, suddenly you walk into a field and the beauty of the tree's makes you, totally uncharacteristically, cry...and suddenly whenever you watch films, you can't help but blub like a baby, when you never ever used to cry at films...and you get desires to go run marathons, when back in school cross country was the thing you hated the most...and you keep getting this feeling in your chest everytime you think of God, this intense passion that actually makes it a little hard to breathe. Add to this all the other experiences I've had in my life, that I can't list at the moment...and well, could there be some scientific explanation for all this...yes, it's possible...or could it be that the bible was bang on, when it says that when you believe, God will send his holy spirit into your heart and you'll be born again? Could it be that the bible was bang on when it teaches that there's a spiritual realm to the universe that can't be seen, that you have to feel, and trust. So, I guess, the reason I believe is because the bible makes more sense to me than science. When I weigh all my life experiences up, all the piece's of the puzzle fit the bible much more logically for me.

"...thats how reason works right?"

Not quite. The experience must be repeatable by others independently of yourself and all other explanations must be ruled out. Needless to say, "I went to this tree and it made me feel weird" does not prove anything other than excactly what it says. For us, not even that, actually, because you could be lying. Not suggesting you are, but you get my point.

Personal experiences are so subjective. I'll give you an example:
I often find myself selecting the queue at the supermarket that moves slower than the others. When this happens I'm angry and amazed at how often this happens. It seems to me that there is some vast conspiracy that always slows down the queue i have chosen. But how likely is it that my personal interpretation is a correct view of reality? To paraphrase your words: Could it be that there is a "queue conspiracy"? Well, yes, but how likely is it? When I think about it, I'm pretty sure I'm simply "forgetting" all those times when my queue moves faster than the others. Interpreting personal experiences must be subject to a careful weighing of probability.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!

I don't claim to have the right way, or the truth, the question on this forum was what did I believe, which is what I have expressed. I can't "prove" God exists, but I "feel" that he does. I accept that not everyone feels this way, and I'm not trying to tell anyone to change, but I do ask that you at least accept my right to a point of view!

That there is a God is not the issue -- the issue is whether we should believe the things the Bible says about him: namely that he enforces his law by rendering punishments upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitute.

Lavinia84 said:

I don't claim to have the right way, or the truth, the question on this forum was what did I believe, which is what I have expressed. I can't "prove" God exists, but I "feel" that he does. I accept that not everyone feels this way, and I'm not trying to tell anyone to change, but I do ask that you at least accept my right to a point of view!

🙂 No need to get angry because someone challenges your opinions! It is healthy to have our personal views critically examined by others. I know this from my own experiences with SA!

For what it's worth: If everyone who "feel" that something is true had your attitude it wouldn't be a problem. But there are many people out there that want to limit another person's rights and sometimes even hurt them because they "feel" that their God agrees with them. Then it is no longer a personal matter, IMO. I just want to fight that kind of thinking.

Hey Itchy,

I totally get what your saying about the spiritual experiences. I have some of my own that you just know is God speaking to you. I have felt the Holy Spirit also and it was something that I have never in my lifetime ever experienced before, I don't even know how I would explain it other than a blanket of love covering me. I have friends who have experienced the same as well.

But your right, if some are happy with darkness then that's their choice and you can't force God on them.

Again, I respect your opinions its just mind boggling to me how people can step outside and see nature and the vast ocean and different animals and know that the universe is so grand and not beleive there is a higher authority. To say you beleive there is absolutely no God, is unbeleivable to me. To say that you don't put your trust in God or want anything to do with him, well thats at least acknowledging him but to think this all happens from nothing and there is no bigger purpose than you live, you suffer, you die, thats just sad. Again, my personal opinion.

It must be an aweful lonely existence.

If you want to find God, you have to seek him with all your heart and don't give up. He will answer.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Peacefinder,

It is equally mysterious to me that a person could observe the beauty and majesty of creation, the sensitivity and sentimentality of humanity, and believe that the Bible is true -- that Yahweh is God -- and that he would render infinite punishments upon the sinner or Christ as his substitute as a means of enforcing his law.

Creation does, indeed speak of a God, but a God of radiant perfection -- a beauty that creates beauty -- rather than Yahweh whose solutions to cosmic problems is to bring the dead non-Christian wronger to grief, or to render infinite penalties upon an innocent Christ.

I truly wish you well, Zipper. I gotta go.



2 Timothy 4:3-4

3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Peacefinder said:

I truly wish you well, Zipper. I gotta go.



2 Timothy 4:3-4

3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

The chain letter does indeed have some very sophisticated tricks to keep people from rejecting it the moment they realise that it sucks and is folding a cloud over them. No doubt. The chinese finger trap does not release fingers easily.

But why would you pop in here, drop a cognitive bomb like "punishment for violation of God's law" and then pop out again, leaving us anxiously clinging to the word "Jesus," less happy and trusting than we were before?

Don't you see that some damage has been done now that the questionable idea of "divine penalties for the infraction of God's law" has been introduced into our brains? And you would leave us, saying "Gotta go"?

No. What you've just done is diabolical. The judgment of God is not as the Bible describes. The judgment and terror of God is love outside that would be love inside. You may call this a lie that my itching ears want to hear, but I call it correction for the cognitive trap of CHristianity.

Zosima said:

Hi Zipper,

What is "good" ? Please answer "yes" or "no" to the following questions:-

-is fire "good" ?
-is a chair "good" ?
-is a pebble "good" ?
-is a yo-yo "good" ?
-is running a marathon "good" ?
-is turning off a light "good" ?
-is leaving a door open "good" ?
-is buying an ice-cream "good" ?
-is committing ****** (sue-i-side) "good" ?
-is Osama bin Laden "good" ?

p.s. I dare you to write " torturing babies isn't evil." !!

Let me get back to you after I refer to the "Republic." TO the extent anything exists at all, it is good, Evil is non-existince. A corruption of the good. Kittens are most definitely good, and most of them participates almost fully in "kittenness," the form of a kitten.

itchy said:

On the topic of free will, here's how I see it.
God created us out of love so that he could love us and we could love him and so he could shower us with gifts and love and give us an eternity in heaven with him. But in order for a loving relationship God had to give us free will, so that we could choose to love him. [i.e. creating a robot to love wouldn't be much fun...it's when a person chooses to love you...thats what loves about]. But giving us free will allows for the possibility that some people may choose not to love God, but instead to do their own thing. Because loving God means you have to give up all those sins that make you feel good, and all your selfishness and pride and independence and control, and many people don't want to do this...[me included!!!]...it's hard...but we all have to choose between the light and the darkness...if we love the darkness then we are free to choose the darkness and there we shall remain forever, and if we love the light then we are free to choose the light and there we will remain forever. [just a thought, but who's to say that someone who loves the darkness and chooses the darkness won't be happy in the darkness forever?!...I haven't thought this thru yet...just a thought!]

But God is also a just God. He knows the hearts of all men. He knows exactly what everyone is thinking and feeling, and he knows exactly how to convey to you, in terms that you understand, this choice that you have to make...but he doesn't force anything because that's not a characteristic of love...i.e. forcing someone to love you isn't real love...but I believe somehow, in someway God will give everybody a fair trial.

also, another point to note is that God exists outside of time, so I don't know how he see's the world, but even though he can see into the future, I don't believe that means we don't have free will...and so, when he creates a person...in a way, god doesn't know what choices that person will make...he hopes the person will choose to love him, but the person might reject god...of course in the dimension of time God does know whats going to happen...but I think it's a hard one to explain...i.e. have you ever existed outside of time?...me neither!...I hope you can see what I'm getting at!]

so, I don't see god as a tyrant with a gun to my head, I'm thankful he brought me into the world so that he could lavish me with love, and I can love him in return.

to clavain,
I think its belief in the bible that causes discussion...cause if a person believes that the bible is true, then everything it teaches about god must be true. So the question is, why would someone believe in the bible?

well, I guess, for me, just like with anything in life, its a build up of many experiences...i.e. thats how reason works right? we consider things and think if this is true then this must be true, etc and we build our beliefs. here's some examples...if you walked into a building where all your unreligious friends were rolling around on the floor, some crying their eyes out, others laughing ecstatically, totally out of character, while most of everyone else is doing the same...and up the front people seem to be getting healed from diseases, and prophecy's are being blurted out [one of my mates went up the front when the preacher correctly guessed a problem with his toe that he hadn't told anyone...and days later when I spoke to him it had been healed]...and while all this is going on, you are feeling feelings you've never felt before, intense passion, and everybody's talking about this holy spirit chap. How would you react? Personally, this was one of my first religious experiences, and I'm a skeptical person, so I forced myself not to cry and controlled myself, and desperatly looked for rational explanations. Was it all a big act, that everyone but me was in on...well, I don't buy that. But what about, maybe, if there's some psychological explanation for it, like hypnosis or something...maybe a scientific explanation that I don't know the answer to just yet, but at least I can sleep better tonight...well maybe, or what about the explanation that it was God, sending his holy spirit upon the building?...I chose science at this point.

but it doesn't stop there...cause you continue to experience things that the bible explains very clearly, but science offers no explanation...like, what if you're getting deeper and deeper into the bible then one day, suddenly you walk into a field and the beauty of the tree's makes you, totally uncharacteristically, cry...and suddenly whenever you watch films, you can't help but blub like a baby, when you never ever used to cry at films...and you get desires to go run marathons, when back in school cross country was the thing you hated the most...and you keep getting this feeling in your chest everytime you think of God, this intense passion that actually makes it a little hard to breathe. Add to this all the other experiences I've had in my life, that I can't list at the moment...and well, could there be some scientific explanation for all this...yes, it's possible...or could it be that the bible was bang on, when it says that when you believe, God will send his holy spirit into your heart and you'll be born again? Could it be that the bible was bang on when it teaches that there's a spiritual realm to the universe that can't be seen, that you have to feel, and trust. So, I guess, the reason I believe is because the bible makes more sense to me than science. When I weigh all my life experiences up, all the piece's of the puzzle fit the bible much more logically for me.

Itchy,

You said . . "I don't see God as person with a gun to my head"

You've given your explanation for free will. You mentioned a lot of positive things about God, but you failed to mention eternal damnation. Like most religious people, you pick the positive things about the bible, but you slide over the negative things. The reason why I compared God to a person with a gun pointing to your head is because God (at least of chrisitianity, islam, and judaism) chooses eternal damnation as a form oof punishment for sin. You can't get around that.

And Peacefinder, the God of Christiany, Islam, and judaism, are all the same in the most important sense. . . they all do not have any independant emperical evidence for their existance.

Saying God is a great guy because he loves us, yet sends us to everlasting torture, is like saying a slave master is a good guy because he gives his slaves a break every once in a while.

You can't debate in a logical fashion with religious people. This train has shown it. whatever logical points you make, the religious person will just throw irrevelant personal experiences and feelings into the debate.

Your personal experiencecs are subjective to you. Your experience might lead you to believe that Jesus is god. Another person's personal experiencec might lead them to believe that vishnu is God. Or another person's personal experience might lead them to believe that there is no God.

If I accept your personal experience as evidence of God, I"ll have to accept the personal experiences of the guy in the loony bin who has a personal experience that he is the King of England. Just because your experience happens to be attached to an organized religion doesn't make it more or less true.

Itchy you said . .

but even though he can see into the future, I don't believe that means we don't have free will

well, yes. Yes it does mean we don't have free will. If God can see what you will do before you do it, then it is impossible that you can do other than what God forsaw that you would do. Or else you would be admitting that God cannot tell the future. He wouldn't be omnipotent. And if it is impossible that you can do other than what God forsaw that you would do, youre destiney is already set.


Itchy you said,


I'm thankful he brought me into the world so that he could lavish me with love, and I can love him in return.

but that's not the point. The point was free will. God did not give you the choice to be brought into this world. God did not give you the choice to decide whether or not you wanted to be a part of the sin salvation dichotomy. It maybe that you would've chosen to take part in this game anyways, had you been given that choice, but other people might not have. ANd that choice was denied to them.

When I say that God forces upon us the sin salvation dichotomy it means that God does not allow us to opt out of it. What if I wanted neither salvatiion nor eternal damnation? I can't choose Not to play this game. I"m forced to make a choice. And that is why I compared God to the person with the gun. Like the Robber, God is forcing us to make a choice between two options, do things his way, or suffer some bad consequence. We Do not have a choice to pick a third option. We did not voluntarily place ourselves into the situation of having those choices. We had no say in what choices we would be presented with. We were simply forced into this world, and forced to play a game.

Personally, for me, if God presented me the choice of whether or not I wanted to be born, it would depend on what the odds are of obtaining salvation versus ending up in enternal damnation. If the odds were bad that I would end up in heaven, then I probably wouldn't choose to be born. But God doesn't tell you the odds. Unless he does, you would be making an extremely important decision without knowing the full implications of your choices. THat would not be ifnormed consent.

But that discussion is academic, because God didn't present us with that choice. And God doesn't tell us what the odds are of obtaining salvation and damnation.

Like I said before, Forcing you to choose between two options, is just as violative of your free will as forcing you to choose one option. (see robber example).

Zipper,

I said I "gotta go" because I really had to go somewhere... :?

Anyway, I am not getting anywhere with you and no matter what I say, you still think God is evil, so I'm moving on. It sickens me the way you are portraying God.

I know what I beleive and am 100% sure of it and I can't convince you because you think the Bible is "the chain letter" so unless you want to chat about something else....there is nothing more for me to say to make you see the loving God that I personally know.

take care, maybe I'll catch you on another Topic

Lawyer,

Look at what you're doing, you're just turning the thing over and over in your mind -- cognitive ruminations -- because Christianity is not much more than this -- cognitive ruminations. There is a God, but the Christian ideas are just words that tumble around in a person's head.

Analytical and thoughtful people like you will never be able to be a Christian because that question will always nag us -- why would God punish a sinner? -- what reason would he see in it? what value is it to him? unless that punishment is intended to correct.

Christians believe that the problem is solved by interjecting the words "justice" and holiness," but they have simply redefined these words to make them mean what would be cruelty in a man. Why should we accept the Christian's notion of holiness and justice? They say: "The Bible said it." :roll: Well, do you know what? I received a letter in my mil telling me about the Ghoulish soul snatcher? Should I believe it "just in case"?

God is virtuous and his punishment is not vengeance, retaliation, or sadistic -- it is just and holy, in short, it is pedagogical.

Peacefinder said:

No matter what I say, you still think God is evil, so I'm moving on. It sickens me the way you are portraying God.

Wait, that's my line. No matter what I say, you still come here and teach us that God enforces his law by rendering penalties. So please move on. It sickens me the way the Bible portrays God. Christian theology veils the face of God with a mask of cruelty and hypocrisy. I don't think God is vicious, I think he is virtuous. It is the Bible that I think is mind-twistingly demonic.

What Christians don't seem to understand is that some of us have very vivid imaginations, and very risk-averse brains, and thus when we hear the words "divine penalty for sin" stated in even the most abstract way, we cannot help but imagine a demonic, mechanical human grinder, compulsively or intentionally breaking the bones of Muslim women -- what else can we think of? Human minds work on analogies. We have certainly never encountered anything else in our human existence that would so unflinchingly and relentlessly bring humans to grief. The human mangler is the closest analogy that any of us have ever encountered here on earth to the "Yahweh" described in the Bible.

Punishment for the violation of the divine law -- is it penal, or is it remedial? One is the most infinitely aweful thing that one person could say to another, the other is the only good news.