What RELIGION are you?

[Peacefinder]

Nicely said Si. 8)

 

[Peacefinder]

Thats a great website, Itchy.

Check this one out too http://www.bible-prophecy.com/

 

[Zipper]

Romans ch 6 v23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. The wages of sin is not negotiable.Ok you say what a mean, angry God.But he has also given a free gift of eternal life if you will accept it. Its only by grace we are saved through faith.

Saved from what?

These are empty cogitations with no functional value for the host. It has value for no one except for the rumination itself. The rumination wants to survive and reproduce, and you are helping it by asking us all to join in your rumination:

"There is a divine penalty for the violation of God's law that we will be pardoned of ("justification") only if we believe that there is a divine penalty for the violation of God's law and that Christ bore it on the cross ("faith")."

Around and around Christians go in this tight cognitive circle intended to dispel a threat to our welfare (divine punishments) which is no threat at all but is the balm to what ails us. The BIble functions like a chain letter when it states that the operation of divine judgment would separate the non-believing sinner from God (rather than unite the sinner to God by correcting him).

By telling us these theories, you are spreading the thought. You are a vector for the thought itself, which, more than anything, would like to take up some space in our analytical circuitry. Go to your local mental institution and I imagine you could find a person who's analytical circuitry has become totally overloaded with these ruminations; especially this one: "the wages of sin is death" -- God requites sin with penal punishments. The beautiful name "Jesus" is just a placeholder for these infinitely horrible theories -- it's a chainletter with a few good tricks.

You are a smart guy who has some familiarity with anxiety disorders -- don't you see the close connections between the Christian ruminations and OCD?

Worries, doubts, superstitious beliefs all are common in everyday life. However, when they become so excessive such as hours of hand washing or make no sense at all such as driving around and around the block to check that an accident didn't occur then a diagnosis of OCD is made. In OCD, it is as though the brain gets stuck on a particular thought or urge and just can't let go. People with OCD often say the symptoms feel like a case of mental hiccups that won't go away. OCD is a medical brain disorder that causes problems in information processing. It is not your fault or the result of a "weak" or unstable personality.

For most Christians, these ruminations are pretty mildly-afflicting.

 

[Peacefinder]

8O

Thanks for that eye opening information Zosima. Personally, I'll stick to my so called "chain letter " (Bible) of love and peace.

 

[frogpie]

i realy do question where ya'll get the motivation for this forum anyhoo, my 2 cents,

dont let the quest to prove jesus's existences or his aparent greatness shadow the the lessons we can learn, jesus and the bible offer wisdom and insights into life thats hard to find anywhere else in the world today.

Theres too much christian mumjo jumbo, but they cant help it thats what people do. A believers first reaction to feeling a revelation or whatever is to explain and relate it but how can u possibly explain god and his works, and so they try, and who can knock a tryer?

 

[Zipper]

What do Plato's utopian visions have to do with NeoPlatonism? Nothing at all. Plato was not even a NeoPlatonist, as I said before. To attack the theory of the forms, or a metaphysics of the "Great Chain of Being" based on Plato's hunches about ideal social organization is bizarre.

I like NeoPlatonism, but I love the Truth better -- but until we are transformed into the Truth, Neo-Platonism is the best vehicle to get us there. It is certainly infinitely preferable to the baseness and confusion of fundamentalist Christianity.

 

[frogpie]

Baseness -
a. Having or showing a contemptible, mean-spirited, or selfish lack of human decency.
b. Devoid of high values or ethics: a base, degrading way of life.
c. Inferior in value or quality.

and there realy isnt all that much confusion, u beleive or u dont

and who says fundamental christians are right

 

[cLavain]

Theres too much christian mumjo jumbo, but they cant help it thats what people do. A believers first reaction to feeling a revelation or whatever is to explain and relate it but how can u possibly explain god and his works, and so they try, and who can knock a tryer?

How, pray tell, do you differentiate between Christian mumbo jumbo and a Christian informed opinion? :?

Moreover, the explanation of a revelation is most probably psychological, but I realize that doesn't sound nearly as exciting as a personal message from the Creator of the universe...

 

[frogpie]

i could have worded that better, christian mumbojumbo = talk whitch is pointless and leads nowhere
so techniquely by my crazy meaning christian mumbojumbo and christian informed opinion is often 1 and the same

and i dont have a clue about revelation my point was about human nature

 

[cLavain]

christian mumbojumbo and christian informed opinion is often 1 and the same

I concur.

 

[Lavinia84]

Thank you for the apology, its as much my fault for letting it get to me. I was having a bad day.

Can i suggest a re-phrasing:

Zipper, itchi & Lavinia84, your understanding of God leads to the conclusion that he has a perfectly filthy & dirty mind!

I'm not sure what to make of the suggestion of clean=evil.
This seems illogical, I'll have to think about it.

 

[itchy]

As far as your "prophets" example goes, I would like to know what prophecies have come true. I am sure I can point to prophecies of other religions who'll say that their prophecies have come true as well. Its usually a matter of interpretation.
Unless you give me an example of a prophecy that made a specific prediction that could not have been foreseen at the time it was made, and was made with specific language related to a specific time, place, and thing, you will not have presented me with strong evidence.

1. In 592 BC, Ezekiel predicts that Israel will be reborn in exactly 907,200 days. [LINK][ezekiel 4:4-6]
2. in 537 BC, Daniel predicted that from the command to restore and rebuild jerusalem, to the coming of the messiah, there will be exactly 173,880 days. [LINK][daniel 9:24-26]
3. around 700 BC, Micah predicted that jerusalum would be destroyed and zion would be "plowed like a field". In 586 BC the babylonians destroyed jerusalem, and in 135 AD there are historical reports of Romans running plows over the land. [LINK] [micah 3:12]
4. in 595 BC ezekiel predicted that many nations would destroy the city of Tyre, that it's rubble would be thrown into the sea, and the flat rock left behind would be a place where fishermen would "spread their nets". He also predicted that Tyre would never be rebuilt. In 586 BC nebuchadnezzer attacked the city for 13 years. In 332 BC alexander the great threw all the debris of Tyre in the water and historian Philip Myers states that Tyre is now a "place where the fishermen that still frequent the spot spread their nets to dry [LINK][ezekiel 26:3-14]

These are just some of the thousands of prophecies in the bible. I'm still looking into them, but the more I look the more undeniable I believe the bible to be. Especially the prophecies that are currently being fullfilled in modern day Israel. Like,[Isaiah 66:7-8], predicted that Israel would be "born in a day", which is exactly what happened on 14th may 1948. I'm yet to find out exactly how rare that is, but I'd imagine a new country's birth would require months, even years, of paperwork from various governments. also [deuteronomy 28:64-67] and [genesis 28:10-15]predicted that the jews would be scattered and persecuted worldwide and there's only one group of people, in the history of this world, that have been forcibly scattered and persecuted in every inhabited continent of this world - the Jews. [LINK]

if you want further evidence just to make sure by all means keep looking...or ask me what you want and I'll happily look for you...(i'm not talking directly to lawyerguy btw, I'm talking to anyone/ everyone)but after hearing all this evidence if you still can't believe in god, I'd really encourage you to have an honest look deep inside your heart to see if a part of you just doesn't want to believe. Maybe its just pride or the feeling of wanting to be in control of your own life or something, or not wanting to look like a fool for believing in something that many people laugh at. But I'd just encourage you to let go, and just put an ounce of trust in God, and he'll show up! I'm sure of it.

p.s. thanks for the link peacefinder...it was a good one!

 

[Peacefinder]

Your welcome :wink:

I would also say that if any of you want proof of more prophesies, just turn your tv on and watch the news, prophecies written in the Bible are happening as we speak, its very clear.

 

[cLavain]

In 595 BC ezekiel predicted that many nations would destroy the city of Tyre, that it's rubble would be thrown into the sea, and the flat rock left behind would be a place where fishermen would "spread their nets". He also predicted that Tyre would never be rebuilt. In 586 BC nebuchadnezzer attacked the city for 13 years. In 332 BC alexander the great threw all the debris of Tyre in the water and historian Philip Myers states that Tyre is now a "place where the fishermen that still frequent the spot spread their nets to dry

Nebuchadnezzar laid siege to Tyre from 585-573 B.C.E. but was unable to take the city. Tyre was conquered in 332 B.C.E. by Alexander but at no time was the city destroyed. It exists to this day. According to the false prophecy found in Ezekiel, Nebuchadnezzar was supposed to completely destroy Tyre, it was never to be rebuilt again, but to remain an eternal ruin, and the King was supposed to get much wealth and loot from the city, making it worth his while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre

Hmmm...seems it's still there! :wink:

 

[Zipper]

The argument from Biblical prophecy is very unconvincing. The Bible is a very long document and contains tons of this prophetic/apocalyptic material. No matter what happens, everything can somehow be shoe-horned to fit some Biblical prophecy. It's like the way people read Nostradamus. Let's look at Biblical prophecy that hasn't come true as well in order to preserve a little balance in this inquiry.

 

[Peacefinder]

The only difference is that Nostrodamus has been wrong before, the Bible hasn't.

 

[Zipper]

Human minds work on the basis of analogies. Although we are abstract thinkers, the basic building blocks of these abstractions are analogies to things we have encountered. The NeoPlatonist theories about the "World of the Forms" is a very good visual illustraction of the way individual instantiations of things in our world relate to an ideal world. Likewise, the Great Chain of Being is a good metaphor to help us organize our thoughts and come to an understanding of how the universe is structured.

Do I believe that it is 100% correct and that there is an actual place where there is a world of the forms? No. But when we're talking about mental tools for understanding our world and God's relation to it, Plato's analogies are difficult to beat. Plato was an overwhelming theological genius.

But, what analogy can we humans draw to mind when we hear the Christian "Good News" that there is a divine punishment for the violation of God's law that God would render upon a non-believing sinner? How can a human think about this? What comparison can be made to such a God as presented by this theology? No human being has imagination enough to conceive of this infinite horror. All that the human race has suffered in war and want, in pestilence and famine, in fire and flood, -- all the pangs and pains of every disease and every death -- all this is as nothing compared with the agonies to be endured by one punished soul.

The notion that God is going to requite the violation of his law with punishments upon the non-believing sinner or CHrist as his atonement is too absurd for refutation. What man can believe that blood can appease God? And yet, Christianity is based upon that belief. The Jews pacified Jehovah with the blood of animals, and according to the Christian system, the blood of Jesus is the grounds for God's pardon of Christians. It is hard to conceive how the human mind can give assent to such terrible ideas, or how any person can read the Bible and still believe in the doctrine of inspiration.

 

[lawyerguy]

As far as your "prophets" example goes, I would like to know what prophecies have come true. I am sure I can point to prophecies of other religions who'll say that their prophecies have come true as well. Its usually a matter of interpretation.
Unless you give me an example of a prophecy that made a specific prediction that could not have been foreseen at the time it was made, and was made with specific language related to a specific time, place, and thing, you will not have presented me with strong evidence.

1. In 592 BC, Ezekiel predicts that Israel will be reborn in exactly 907,200 days. [LINK][ezekiel 4:4-6]
2. in 537 BC, Daniel predicted that from the command to restore and rebuild jerusalem, to the coming of the messiah, there will be exactly 173,880 days. [LINK][daniel 9:24-26]
3. around 700 BC, Micah predicted that jerusalum would be destroyed and zion would be "plowed like a field". In 586 BC the babylonians destroyed jerusalem, and in 135 AD there are historical reports of Romans running plows over the land. [LINK] [micah 3:12]
4. in 595 BC ezekiel predicted that many nations would destroy the city of Tyre, that it's rubble would be thrown into the sea, and the flat rock left behind would be a place where fishermen would "spread their nets". He also predicted that Tyre would never be rebuilt. In 586 BC nebuchadnezzer attacked the city for 13 years. In 332 BC alexander the great threw all the debris of Tyre in the water and historian Philip Myers states that Tyre is now a "place where the fishermen that still frequent the spot spread their nets to dry [LINK][ezekiel 26:3-14]

These are just some of the thousands of prophecies in the bible. I'm still looking into them, but the more I look the more undeniable I believe the bible to be. Especially the prophecies that are currently being fullfilled in modern day Israel. Like,[Isaiah 66:7-8], predicted that Israel would be "born in a day", which is exactly what happened on 14th may 1948. I'm yet to find out exactly how rare that is, but I'd imagine a new country's birth would require months, even years, of paperwork from various governments. also [deuteronomy 28:64-67] and [genesis 28:10-15]predicted that the jews would be scattered and persecuted worldwide and there's only one group of people, in the history of this world, that have been forcibly scattered and persecuted in every inhabited continent of this world - the Jews. [LINK]

if you want further evidence just to make sure by all means keep looking...or ask me what you want and I'll happily look for you...(i'm not talking directly to lawyerguy btw, I'm talking to anyone/ everyone)but after hearing all this evidence if you still can't believe in god, I'd really encourage you to have an honest look deep inside your heart to see if a part of you just doesn't want to believe. Maybe its just pride or the feeling of wanting to be in control of your own life or something, or not wanting to look like a fool for believing in something that many people laugh at. But I'd just encourage you to let go, and just put an ounce of trust in God, and he'll show up! I'm sure of it.

p.s. thanks for the link peacefinder...it was a good one!

Itchy,

Israel born in a day? I can point to another country that was also born in a day. The united states.. July 4, 1776, when it declared its independence from England. Like the Israel of 1948, the United states was also a nation created by immigrants to its land. And like israel, american's statehood was only secured after conflict and war. Or how about Mexico? September 16, 1810? when it declared its independence from Spain? Mexico too was another country that was created by immigrants from europe (spanish settlers). Its not that uncommon for nation's to be "born in a day". How about Canda?, Iraq? all the countries in south america? India? Iran? and all the other countries who can claim to have been "born" on a specific date by declaring their independence from another country. It depends what your defintion of "born" is.

Hmm During Ezekiels time, according to the Roman calendar, there were 355 days in a year. The 365 days calendar was not adopted until 48 BC. (and even that is different from the current gregorian calendar we use today) The correct dates of the creation of israel depends upon which calendars you use. The current calendar year of 365.25 days per year (roughly) was not adopted until centuries later.

Hmm Roman's plowing the land, I said that I would be impressed if you gave me a prediction that could not have been forseen at the time it was made. I think people were plowing lands at the time the "prophecy" was predicted. Its not an impressive prediction to "forsee" that people in the future would be doing things you have already seen them doing in the past. Predicting that Jersulem would be "plowed" back then is like predicting that people will "farm nebraska" in the future.

Predicting Jeruselm would be destroyed during the tumultuous events of the day wasn't a spectaclar prediction. Jersualem has always been and continues to be the center of many conflicts. it doesn't take a genius or a prophet to predict that, at some point, it would be destroyed during some battle or war. During those days, many cities were destroyed and rebuilt with invading armies.

Again, those alleged "prophecies" seemed extremely forseeable at the time they were made.

I'll make similar predictions right now. I'll predict that there will be another bomb explosion in baghdad. I'll also predict that they'll be further bombings in Israel. I will also predict that arabs will demonstrate against israel somewhere. I'll predict that disney will come out with another movie. If all of these events come to pass will that make me a prophet? Of course not. because those events are very forseeable.


My point is making predictions based upon things that are common to your time period is not very impressive. And that's basically what all these bible "prophecies" amount to. These "prophets" just saw what was going on around them and made common sense predictions of what would occur. And we're not even going to talk about all the "prophecies" in the bible that never came true.

LIke umm...Jesus saying the apocalypse will occur within the life time of some of his followers???

Now if ezekiel prophecised that Silvo Burlosconi would be prime minister of Italy in 2006, that would be something.

Itchy, you said that having non christian scientific organizations reviewing the evidence would present "biases" against christianty. The last time I checked none of the scientific organizations that I cited have any clauses that say "no christians allowed". The neutral scientific organizations I cited are worldwide organizations, made up of scientists from every culture, religion, including christianity. The study you cited was reviewed by an organization made exclusively of Christians. So I think your organization would pose a much greater danger of being biased than the mainstream scientific organizations.

I"m not a bible scholar, so i'll look into your claims about the other topics.

If you promise me that you will look into evolution with an open mind and science.
Pick up a modern day biology book that wasn't written by a christian fundamentalist. Or a geology book. or Astronomy book Or a book about chemistry. Read it.
Try your best to understand it. If, after reading it, you still cling to your "beliefs" I would question whether you are truly interested in the truth, or just want to cling to you beliefs in God for other pyschological reasons.

 

[Peacefinder]

Can I ask, where did you find out about NeoPlatonism, Zipper?

Or anyone else that follows something similar that is not Christianity?

Just wondering, not going to disect it or put it up for argument. I just want to know where you learned about it or was exposed to it.

Thanks

 

[Zipper]

Can I ask, where did you find out about NeoPlatonism, Zipper?

Or anyone else that follows something similar that is not Christianity?

Just wondering, not going to disect it or put it up for argument. I just want to know where you learned about it or was exposed to it.

Thanks

As I became disturbed by Christian theology (hell, atonement, penalty for sin) I found that there were certain Christians throughout history who rejected a Biblical understanding of God-man relations and instead adopted a neo-platonist understanding of God-man relations and draped the story of the incarnation around their Greek ideas.

For example, the Cappadocian fathers described an understanding of the atonement as Christus Victor rather than penal substitution, an understanding of soteriology as transfiguration by judgment rather than justification by faith, and an understanding of "hell" as the negative experience of God's love rather than penalty for sin.

(Chances are that most of the Christians who read that last sentence or two have no idea what I am talking about. Finding any Christian who understands Christian theology or the history of Christianity is nearly impossible.)

So, in fact, I discovered Neo-Platonism through the Neo-Platonist/Christian synthesis of such notables as Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite and St. Maximos the Confessor. Ultimately I decided that Neo-Platonism made more sense than Christianity and that it was not a useful exercise to try to pretend (with these men) that the Bible taught neo-platonism when it clearly didn't.

So then, I began to read the texts that these men were reading and believing: "The Enneads" by Plotinus, and the writings by Proclus, Prophyry, and Iamblichus -- pre-Christian greek pagan theologians.