What RELIGION are you?
- Thread starter Zipper
- Start date
Zipper
Well-known member
It's very convenient to assume that anyone who has left Christianity is bitter. Is it possible to imagine that such a person simply didn't believe a bunch of ignorant desert-dwellers when they claimed that God told them to slaughter the Amalekites and then to slaughter animals as a sacrificial offering to satisfy God's wrath? And then as soon as Jesus took the first steps toward toppling the dragon of superstition, Paul boldly erected it again in Jesus's name, claiming that Jesus's death was a satisfaction of divine justice.Peacefinder said:
Was there ever such a confusion, such an inversion of right and wrong! To lay the pain upon the righteous in the name of justice is simply monstrous. Believe in Moloch if you will, but call him Moloch, not Justice. I am a theist, but believe it is better to be an atheist than a Christian. There is one thing lower than to beleive the Biblical presentation of God, and that is to worship the God of whom it is believed.
Zipper
Well-known member
The only way to be infected with the Jesus bug. It doesn't help you in the eternal world, it is just a futile cognitive rumination. Have you ever heard your computer harddrive buzzing because of spyware? That is the technological equivalent to what is happening when you say "Jesus died for my sins."Peacefinder said:
God's punishment of non-believing sinners is pedagogical not penal, thus the Jesus bug really doesn't achieve any goals at all except its own survival and reproduction. There is no heaven, hell, living forever, external rewards, external penalties, just the fire of God's love which shall consume you, drawing you up into the eternal world, if you yield yourself to it. The Bible is the most successful chain letter in all of human history.
It is pernicious in the sense that it keeps a person from yielding themselves to God's infinite wrath, which is the means by which God unites humans to himself.
Zipper
Well-known member
Have you ever thought of turning to God? Wonder of wonders that he might be the one to tell you about himself. Rather than to ask someone who either wants to take your money, control your behavior, or have sex with you or all three.Nytro said:
You can operate on faith, trusting that the way to learn from God what he has to teach you is by yielding yourself to his punishment. Bt I suppose you will never come to be taught and believe this lesson until you yield yourself to his punishment, because this is his means of teaching lessons that ought to be known.
Circular reasoning is unavoidable. NeoPlatonism is the circle that breaks circles, drawing upward and inward into the Real.
Peacefinder
Well-known member
The interesting thing is that you don't know God at all....you keep saying he is this angry, vengefull, wrathfull and evil God but it is simply not true. When you have a relationship with Jesus Christ you are filled with His love, kindness, gentleness. If you make a mistake He is mercifull and forgiving. All God wants is for us to love him a 10th of what he loves us. When you accept Jesus into your life, the peace overwhelmes you, his love for you just comes in like rushing water.....
So, I have no idea about what "God" you are refering to but its certainly not the God of Israel.
Certainly not Jesus Christ, who came humbley, with love for us and compassion, who died despite His power to stop it, to free us from our misery of sin.
So, I have no idea about what "God" you are refering to but its certainly not the God of Israel.
Certainly not Jesus Christ, who came humbley, with love for us and compassion, who died despite His power to stop it, to free us from our misery of sin.
Lavinia84
Well-known member
First of all I'm new to this site so hello everyone, just thought I'd throw my two cents in.
I consider myself a Christian-Platonist and am a practising Catholic.
I came across this site while looking for information about SA, which I've had as long as I can remmeber. I was looking because recently memebers of my Catholic Youth Group have been pushing for me to partake in activities that my SA currently prevents me from being active in, and of course they can't understand why.
NB I study ancient history, so I look at texts in a different way to most Christians.
I beleive the Bible (OT and NT) was written by men, who described their own understanding and experiences of God. As such the Bible is not the inerrant word of God, it does however contain within it Godly and goodly words. This is how I account for the apparent differences between the Old and New Testaments. The authors of the OT understood God to be vengeful, but he was their protector, the God only of Israel, whereas the NT authors saw God as the one God of all mankind, who was loving and forgiving. The problem only comes if you want to hold the the OT and NT are both 100% right in their description of God.
I belive that God is an entity outside our 4 dimensional universe, God is a part of the world of Being, in that he is unchanging. God is beyond human understanding, as such mankind must resort to imperfect analogies in order to communicate their understanding of God, eg God is a "he", God does not sexually reproduce, gender is irrelevant and should only be used grammatically as the word "it" carries the inference of disrespect.
I belive God created this world, the world of becoming, which involves constant change. I belive that the mind of God is Plato's World of Forms, and that this matterial world is only an imperfect represntation of the Forms. As St Augustine suggests bad and evil are not forms, but are the lack, or most imperfect representation of a form. Ie God did not create dark, it is simply the absence of light.
I have yet to formulate a complete theory on the meaning of life, but at present I think it is somewhat like the idea of a test, but not one that results in purgatory of hell. Ultimately I think we all have souls (maybe animals and plants too !?) and that after death our eternal souls return to the world of being and become one with God. I think that our spiritual development during life affects the capacity of our soul to unite with God.
I do not think that any one religion or faith is "right". I hold that God is all-knowing and all-loving, the essence of goodness. No true God would allow the only path to him to be through prophets sent to only one group of people at one point in time and tell them its thier job to convert everyone else. I think that there are many paths to God, specific to time, culture, location and personality. In this imperfect world I don't believe that any person can claim to have "truth", they can have fact and opinion, only God can have truth.
Incidentaly did anyone else enjoy the irony of The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe as a movie? Seeing as its about 'truth' (the Christian story with Aslan as Jesus), integrity and honour being shown in a theatre (cave) as a light projection on a screen (shadows on a cave wall) watched by people who can't see the real world?
Happy to hear any thoughts on this.
I consider myself a Christian-Platonist and am a practising Catholic.
I came across this site while looking for information about SA, which I've had as long as I can remmeber. I was looking because recently memebers of my Catholic Youth Group have been pushing for me to partake in activities that my SA currently prevents me from being active in, and of course they can't understand why.
NB I study ancient history, so I look at texts in a different way to most Christians.
I beleive the Bible (OT and NT) was written by men, who described their own understanding and experiences of God. As such the Bible is not the inerrant word of God, it does however contain within it Godly and goodly words. This is how I account for the apparent differences between the Old and New Testaments. The authors of the OT understood God to be vengeful, but he was their protector, the God only of Israel, whereas the NT authors saw God as the one God of all mankind, who was loving and forgiving. The problem only comes if you want to hold the the OT and NT are both 100% right in their description of God.
I belive that God is an entity outside our 4 dimensional universe, God is a part of the world of Being, in that he is unchanging. God is beyond human understanding, as such mankind must resort to imperfect analogies in order to communicate their understanding of God, eg God is a "he", God does not sexually reproduce, gender is irrelevant and should only be used grammatically as the word "it" carries the inference of disrespect.
I belive God created this world, the world of becoming, which involves constant change. I belive that the mind of God is Plato's World of Forms, and that this matterial world is only an imperfect represntation of the Forms. As St Augustine suggests bad and evil are not forms, but are the lack, or most imperfect representation of a form. Ie God did not create dark, it is simply the absence of light.
I have yet to formulate a complete theory on the meaning of life, but at present I think it is somewhat like the idea of a test, but not one that results in purgatory of hell. Ultimately I think we all have souls (maybe animals and plants too !?) and that after death our eternal souls return to the world of being and become one with God. I think that our spiritual development during life affects the capacity of our soul to unite with God.
I do not think that any one religion or faith is "right". I hold that God is all-knowing and all-loving, the essence of goodness. No true God would allow the only path to him to be through prophets sent to only one group of people at one point in time and tell them its thier job to convert everyone else. I think that there are many paths to God, specific to time, culture, location and personality. In this imperfect world I don't believe that any person can claim to have "truth", they can have fact and opinion, only God can have truth.
Incidentaly did anyone else enjoy the irony of The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe as a movie? Seeing as its about 'truth' (the Christian story with Aslan as Jesus), integrity and honour being shown in a theatre (cave) as a light projection on a screen (shadows on a cave wall) watched by people who can't see the real world?
Happy to hear any thoughts on this.
Nytro
Well-known member
Well I do beleive in God, and think very highly of Jesus. All was well until I actually read passages in the Bible. I started getting mixed messages of what I was taught as a kid, which I felt good about and then when I actually read the Bible I got alot contradictions to my old beleifs. I said to myself, hey this isnt the Chrsitian God I asumed I was worshiping, he seems more cruel and does many pointless things.
So am I really wrong to say all the love and goodness of what I was taugt I liked and apreciated but then when I looked deeply into the actual "Book" (Bible NIV) I start to see contradiction on my understanding. And I wasnt searching for ways to bash it either, I just decided to read it.
Im more than willing to pull out these versus too, just so someone might explain to me that I might be possibly wrong, but then again thats only opions from someone who will give the verse a diffrent meaning just to prove it is correct, which technically is not what the message says at all.
I still dont understand how God can change his whole vengeful persona after the Old Testament. People tell me to just learn from the New Testament, but the Old one is still part of the Bible thus, its all true too!
So I feel very confused over all this, I mean their are good points against and for the Bible and right now im still neutral. And I have prayed for months but Im still not any nearer to the truth than I was nearly a year ago. I just have more contradicitons, mass confusion on what is the truth or could be the truth and a headache for not getting anywhere.
But I feel I must keep trucking if im ever going to make scense of all this.
Its like im fighting to find truth, but then again im realizing more and more there is less truth. In the case of religion Ignorance is Bliss, because look at some of the smartest people that live(lived) they are all agnostic, why is that?
So am I really wrong to say all the love and goodness of what I was taugt I liked and apreciated but then when I looked deeply into the actual "Book" (Bible NIV) I start to see contradiction on my understanding. And I wasnt searching for ways to bash it either, I just decided to read it.
Im more than willing to pull out these versus too, just so someone might explain to me that I might be possibly wrong, but then again thats only opions from someone who will give the verse a diffrent meaning just to prove it is correct, which technically is not what the message says at all.
I still dont understand how God can change his whole vengeful persona after the Old Testament. People tell me to just learn from the New Testament, but the Old one is still part of the Bible thus, its all true too!
So I feel very confused over all this, I mean their are good points against and for the Bible and right now im still neutral. And I have prayed for months but Im still not any nearer to the truth than I was nearly a year ago. I just have more contradicitons, mass confusion on what is the truth or could be the truth and a headache for not getting anywhere.
But I feel I must keep trucking if im ever going to make scense of all this.
Its like im fighting to find truth, but then again im realizing more and more there is less truth. In the case of religion Ignorance is Bliss, because look at some of the smartest people that live(lived) they are all agnostic, why is that?
Zipper
Well-known member
The Bible teaches that there is an infinite penalty for the violation of divine law that God would render upon the non-believing sinner or Christ as his substitue. THAT is what the Bible says at its most benign level of abstraction.Peacefinder said:
Yahweh of the Bible is love, yes, but he is also "holy" and "just" as the Bible defines it. And that definition includes something about rendering infinite penalties upon the non-believing sinner.
The Bible teaches that Neo-Platonists who hopefully yield themselves to the operation of God's fires do NOT unite with God in the eternal world.
I know what Christianity teaches and if you can only be a Christian so long as you deny the teaching that there is a divine penalty for the infraction of God's law, then you ought to deconvert at this moment, because the Bible and Christian theology is quite clear on this point.
Nytro
Well-known member
Lavinia84 that was an excellent post! 
I agree with everything you have said. Its always good to have an open mind like that, Im throwing down the towel everyone, I feel more negative and bitter by trying to turn away from my once happy beleifs. Im just tired of searching for the Absolute Truth, when really all we have is mans interpretations of God. Nothing is 100% certain. Ill just continue to keep an open mind, refuse to pay attention the the finatical religious people, after all I choose not to become like them anyway, and I wouldnt want to change my character to fit someone esles bill.
I agree with everything you have said.
Its always good to have an open mind like that, Im throwing down the towel everyone, I feel more negative and bitter by trying to turn away from my once happy beleifs. Im just tired of searching for the Absolute Truth, when really all we have is mans interpretations of God. Nothing is 100% certain. Ill just continue to keep an open mind, refuse to pay attention the the finatical religious people, after all I choose not to become like them anyway, and I wouldnt want to change my character to fit someone esles bill.
Zipper
Well-known member
Lavinia84 said:
I thought about becoming a CHristian neo-platonist, along the same lines as St. Simeon the New Theologian, or Dionysius the Areopagite. I am especially a fan of the Cappadocian Fathers and the Alexandria Catechetical school. The synthesis of Neo-Platonism and Christianity is quite appealing, and C.S. Lewis spent his life working on this project. If you are interested in Christian Platonism, you can find it to some degree in the Roman Church (see, e.g. Hans Urs Van Balthasar), but it exists in a more pure form in the Orthodox Church (Eastern Orthodoxy).
Why am I not a Christian, then? Because Neo-Platonism is more true than Christianity, and the addition of Christianity just confuses the issues. The Bible is base and oppressive, and Neo-Platonist Reconstructions of the text will never solve these problems. Christianity should be attacked head on from a Neo-Platonist perspective, rather than to change it from what it clearly is.
This reminds me of Prophyry's objection to Origen's attempts at reconstructing the Christian theories of God-man relations (Prophyry grew up in a Christian family like me). As Christianity spread, there was an increasingly intellectual reaction to it among the classically oriented intellectuals who sought to defend "reason". Here is Porphyry, a leading "Neoplatonist" attacking Christian unreason as reported by Eusebius:
"Some persons, desiring to find a solution to the baseness of the Jewish Scriptures rather than abandon them, have had recourse to explanations inconsistent and incongruous with the words written, which explanations, instead of supplying a defense of the foreigners, contain rather approval and praise of themselves. For they boast that the plain words of Moses are "enigmas", and regard them as oracles full of hidden mysteries; and having bewildered the mental judgment by folly, they make their explanations."
"As an example of this absurdity take a man whom I met when I was young, and who was then greatly celebrated and still is, on account of the writings which he has left. I refer to Origen, who is highly honored by the teachers of these doctrines. For this man, having been a student of Ammonius, who had attained the greatest proficiency in philosophy of any in our day, derived much benefit from his teacher in the knowledge of the sciences; but as to the correct choice of life, he pursued a course opposite to his. For Ammonius, being a Christian, and brought up by Christian parents, when he gave himself to study and to philosophy straightway conformed to the life required by the laws. But Origen, having been educated as a Greek in Greek literature, went over to the barbarian recklessness. And carrying over the learning which he had obtained, he hawked it about, in his life conducting himself as a Christian and contrary to the laws, but in his opinions of material things and of the Deity being like a Greek, and mingling Grecian teachings with foreign fables. For he was continually studying Plato, and he busied himself with the writings of Numenius and Cronius, Apollophanes, Longinus, Moderatus, and Nicomachus, and those famous among the Pythagoreans. And he used the books of Chaeremon the Stoic, and of Cornutus. Becoming acquainted through them with the figurative interpretation of the Grecian mysteries, he applied it to the Jewish Scriptures."
cLavain
Well-known member
Lavinia84 said:
Well, do let us know when you have formulated a complete theory on the meaning of life. I'm sure all the philosophers, theologians, prophets, new agers, life coachers and others who have tried to explain the meaning of life and still have nothing to show for it but pure guesswork would like to know the truth, as would I.
In the meantime, I would like to hear the logical reasoning behind your interesting "test"-hypothesis. Feel free to provide references to observational data that would support it. Thank you!
Peacefinder
Well-known member
the bottom line is that holiness is the standard whether you like it or not, that's what God is, Holy. We are sinners because of inherited sin from Adam and Eve and therefore we choose sin or holiness....Satan or God.
We are tainted with sin and therefore cannot be cleansed unless Jesus does so for us when we desire it.
The old testament is full of stories about the Israelites rebellion. God would come through for them and they would turn against him constantly. God is Holy and Just. He cannot break his own laws, he must punish sin. But he begs us through Jesus to repent and accept his son as a pathway to him. He has made it possible for us to be reconciled to him and we have a choice, we either accept his way out or suffer because of our own disease called sin.
If you are dying of a curable disease but refuse to seek medical attention for it, you will die and it is your own choice. Because we have the freedom of free will. We are not made to be robots and have to accept God, we have the choice of refusing him also.
I would plead with all of you. Read the book of John in the New Testament. See how loving Jesus is. How much He suffered for your disease called sin and for you souls. His words are meant for us today, not just for people 2000 years ago. He made a way out for us, take it and escape destruction.
thewayofthemaster.com
We are tainted with sin and therefore cannot be cleansed unless Jesus does so for us when we desire it.
The old testament is full of stories about the Israelites rebellion. God would come through for them and they would turn against him constantly. God is Holy and Just. He cannot break his own laws, he must punish sin. But he begs us through Jesus to repent and accept his son as a pathway to him. He has made it possible for us to be reconciled to him and we have a choice, we either accept his way out or suffer because of our own disease called sin.
If you are dying of a curable disease but refuse to seek medical attention for it, you will die and it is your own choice. Because we have the freedom of free will. We are not made to be robots and have to accept God, we have the choice of refusing him also.
I would plead with all of you. Read the book of John in the New Testament. See how loving Jesus is. How much He suffered for your disease called sin and for you souls. His words are meant for us today, not just for people 2000 years ago. He made a way out for us, take it and escape destruction.
thewayofthemaster.com
lawyerguy
Well-known member
Peace Finder I respect your beliefs,
But I dont think you read my post about free will. God is the person pointing the gun at you and forcing you to play a game you did not freely choose to play.
Before there can be any free will within the context of a situation, one must first have the free will to decide whether or not you want to be placed into that situation in the first place. That is the most important choice that you should have.
Because none of us chose to be born. None of us chose whether or not we wanted to be a part of the whole "sin/salvation" dynamtic. Being forced to choose between two options is just as a violation of your free will as being forced into accepting one option.
We do not have the free will to opt out of the sin salvation dynamtic according to the monotheistic religions. Therefore any "choices" we make in this world are akin to moving pieces on a checker board.
If a robber comes and points a gun at you and says. . "give me your money or your life?". . . would any choice you make from that decision be of your own free will? The robber is forcing you to make a decision based upon a threat to your person. Obviously any decision you make in that context could not have been made of your own free will. Or else, in a prosecution for the robbery of your property, the robber would be justified in saying . . "Sure I took the victim's money. However I offered him a choice, his money or his life. He chose to gave me his money. Therefore he gave me his money of his own free will."
That is not free will. That is coercion.
.
God is doing something infinitely worse to you by forcing you to make decisions based upon a threat to your eternal soul. The robber was only threatening your life. God is threatening to eternally punish your soul. That is coercion in infinite proportions.
The example you gave about the dying person choosing between medications and death is not analogous to the situation with God because there was no entity or person forcing the decision upon the dying person. incidently, I do not think that situation was an example of either coercion or free will.
Christians have never adequately explained to me why we should be punished for the "sins" of adam and Eve. Assuming that God was justified in punishing adam and eve in the first place (eating a forbidden apple seems to me like a pretty petty crime . . . and out of proportion to the punishment of potential ETERNAL DAMNATION), why should we inherit their sin? Being punished for another persons transgressions is violation of basic fundamentali principles of justice.
If my dad stole someone's property (he didn't, he's a very moral person). . that would be his crime not mine. Why should I be tainted for something I had no control over and which happenned eons ago?
Religious people do have it correct when they say that nothing can be absolutely proven or disproven. But that is an intellectually dishonest remark to make. Because that ignores the postulate that assertions CAN be give ranked on a hierarchy of probabilities.
Its true that nothing can be definitively proven or disproven. But some things are MORE probable than others. The criteria that makes something more probable than another is emperical evidence. The existence of my car is more probable than the existence of Robot warriors from space. Why? Because we have emperical evidence of the car. We do not have any independant emperical evidence of robots from space. We also do not have any independant emperical evidence of God or, santa clause, or the easter bunny either. Therefore God's probabilities of existing are on the same level of Santa Clause or Easter bunnies.
I do not mean to offend anyone by suggesting that the importance of God into your life is akin to the easter bunny. I am merely suggesting that, objectively speaking, there is no more independant verifiable evidence of his existence than for any other imaginary creature man has devised.
But I dont think you read my post about free will. God is the person pointing the gun at you and forcing you to play a game you did not freely choose to play.
Before there can be any free will within the context of a situation, one must first have the free will to decide whether or not you want to be placed into that situation in the first place. That is the most important choice that you should have.
Because none of us chose to be born. None of us chose whether or not we wanted to be a part of the whole "sin/salvation" dynamtic. Being forced to choose between two options is just as a violation of your free will as being forced into accepting one option.
We do not have the free will to opt out of the sin salvation dynamtic according to the monotheistic religions. Therefore any "choices" we make in this world are akin to moving pieces on a checker board.
If a robber comes and points a gun at you and says. . "give me your money or your life?". . . would any choice you make from that decision be of your own free will? The robber is forcing you to make a decision based upon a threat to your person. Obviously any decision you make in that context could not have been made of your own free will. Or else, in a prosecution for the robbery of your property, the robber would be justified in saying . . "Sure I took the victim's money. However I offered him a choice, his money or his life. He chose to gave me his money. Therefore he gave me his money of his own free will."
That is not free will. That is coercion.
.
God is doing something infinitely worse to you by forcing you to make decisions based upon a threat to your eternal soul. The robber was only threatening your life. God is threatening to eternally punish your soul. That is coercion in infinite proportions.
The example you gave about the dying person choosing between medications and death is not analogous to the situation with God because there was no entity or person forcing the decision upon the dying person. incidently, I do not think that situation was an example of either coercion or free will.
Christians have never adequately explained to me why we should be punished for the "sins" of adam and Eve. Assuming that God was justified in punishing adam and eve in the first place (eating a forbidden apple seems to me like a pretty petty crime . . . and out of proportion to the punishment of potential ETERNAL DAMNATION), why should we inherit their sin? Being punished for another persons transgressions is violation of basic fundamentali principles of justice.
If my dad stole someone's property (he didn't, he's a very moral person). . that would be his crime not mine. Why should I be tainted for something I had no control over and which happenned eons ago?
Religious people do have it correct when they say that nothing can be absolutely proven or disproven. But that is an intellectually dishonest remark to make. Because that ignores the postulate that assertions CAN be give ranked on a hierarchy of probabilities.
Its true that nothing can be definitively proven or disproven. But some things are MORE probable than others. The criteria that makes something more probable than another is emperical evidence. The existence of my car is more probable than the existence of Robot warriors from space. Why? Because we have emperical evidence of the car. We do not have any independant emperical evidence of robots from space. We also do not have any independant emperical evidence of God or, santa clause, or the easter bunny either. Therefore God's probabilities of existing are on the same level of Santa Clause or Easter bunnies.
I do not mean to offend anyone by suggesting that the importance of God into your life is akin to the easter bunny. I am merely suggesting that, objectively speaking, there is no more independant verifiable evidence of his existence than for any other imaginary creature man has devised.
Peacefinder
Well-known member
Hi Lawyerguy,
Thanks for your reply. Actually, I had read your post and I see it differently.
Your right, we don't have a choice in the sin factor, but that's not because of God, that's because of Adam and Eve and Satan.
God created us to fellowship with him. To live in peace and walk with him side by side as his most precious creation, flawless and nurtured by him. Then sin entered the world by story of Adam and Eve and their fall because of Satan's tricks.
God is not pointing a gun to our head. He is extending his hand and saying, I still want you to be with me and to walk with me in peace and I have found a way to give you that through my son Jesus. He is not forcing anything on anyone, if anything he is standing by patiently waiting for us to respond in repentance from our own rebellion. If you want to be mad at someone, you have 3 to choose from. Adam, Eve or Satan.
Lawyerguy, I don't see God as this tyrant. My experiences with him have lead me to realize that he is our loving father and is trying to rescue us, but most people shun him and want nothing to do with God and blame him for everything going on in the world, instead of looking at ourselves and our own mistakes that we are making and our own ugliness inside that sin has caused in our lives. Gods laws are not to keep candy away from a candy loving kid. His laws are to keep us from hurting ourselves. To keep the matches away from his children.
I respect your choice. I wish you will just give him a second hard look someday. Are you fullfilled and happy with your life, right now??
thewayofthemaster.com
Thanks for your reply. Actually, I had read your post and I see it differently.
Your right, we don't have a choice in the sin factor, but that's not because of God, that's because of Adam and Eve and Satan.
God created us to fellowship with him. To live in peace and walk with him side by side as his most precious creation, flawless and nurtured by him. Then sin entered the world by story of Adam and Eve and their fall because of Satan's tricks.
God is not pointing a gun to our head. He is extending his hand and saying, I still want you to be with me and to walk with me in peace and I have found a way to give you that through my son Jesus. He is not forcing anything on anyone, if anything he is standing by patiently waiting for us to respond in repentance from our own rebellion. If you want to be mad at someone, you have 3 to choose from. Adam, Eve or Satan.
Lawyerguy, I don't see God as this tyrant. My experiences with him have lead me to realize that he is our loving father and is trying to rescue us, but most people shun him and want nothing to do with God and blame him for everything going on in the world, instead of looking at ourselves and our own mistakes that we are making and our own ugliness inside that sin has caused in our lives. Gods laws are not to keep candy away from a candy loving kid. His laws are to keep us from hurting ourselves. To keep the matches away from his children.
I respect your choice. I wish you will just give him a second hard look someday. Are you fullfilled and happy with your life, right now??
thewayofthemaster.com
lawyerguy
Well-known member
Peacefinder said:
Hi peacfinder,
I dont think you understand my post. God is forcing us to make a decision. basically it boils down to, "his way or the high way". You have made a lot of assertions that are based upon your bible. That is a logical fallacy. You are making arguments, based upon premises that I have not accepted. I have not accepted your premise that God exists. Therefore any conclusions you made, based upon that premise, are not valid. You have yet to show me any proof that god exists. All I have is your word and your feelings. Like I said in my earlier post, feelings are not reliable and are extremely subjective. You must first prove those premises to me before I accept the your conclusions.
Please address my arguments point for point. As much as I respect your opinions, I cannot have a reasonable discussion with someone who does not think logically. There is nothing in your last post that refuted my assertions.
God is a loving father? and trying to rescue us? Your analogy is not correct. God is threatening all of us with eternal damnation. The key word in that context is eternal.
When most parents punish their kids out of love, the punishments are only temporary. When your father tells you to go to your room for your own good, does he also place you in everlasting torture for your sins? The two situations are therefore not the same. Therefore your comparison of God to Parental discipline are not analogous.
God laws are to keep us from hurting ourselves? And yet if we transgress those laws, we are placed into everlasting torture? Wouldn't we be hurting then?
ANd the whole "satan" is responsible for all the sins, is not really a valid excuse. God is suppose to be infinitely more powerful than satan. If God wanted to, he could wipe satan from existence with the simple will of his mind. The fact that God has the power to wipe out all sins, but chooses not to, places the onus of responsibility for sin squarely upon God's shoulders.
Punishing us for our sins is like punishing the program for the programmer's deliberate errors. God made us, knowing we would all sin. He knows we would all sin, because, quite simply he is suppose to be all knowing.
If I were writing a program and I deliberately wrote the program to be prone to errors, the fault and responsibility of the program not working correctly would be mine, not the programs. It is the responsibility of the all knowing, all powerful creator.
Whether or not I am happy is not the point of this discussion. My happiness or lack of happiness does not make God's existence any more or less likely. The discussion is whether or not God does or does not exist. Please do not confuse the issues by interjecting irrelevant points into the mix.
Peacefinder
Well-known member
Hi Lawyerguy,
I could sit here and argue til I'm blue in the face and I would love to but I have to go pray.
I won't get anywhere, this is not a proof argument. You are sticking with your choice for now. You beleive God to be an Evil dictator who crams his will down your throat, and how wrong you are.
Faith is beleiving in what you do not see. (but know is there)
I pray God will bless you with understanding and knowledge about his love for you.
Hopefully, we'll chat soon again.
Peacefinder
thewayofthemaster.com
I could sit here and argue til I'm blue in the face and I would love to but I have to go pray.
I won't get anywhere, this is not a proof argument. You are sticking with your choice for now. You beleive God to be an Evil dictator who crams his will down your throat, and how wrong you are.
Faith is beleiving in what you do not see. (but know is there)
I pray God will bless you with understanding and knowledge about his love for you.
Hopefully, we'll chat soon again.
Peacefinder
thewayofthemaster.com
Peacefinder
Well-known member
delusional mind?? Aren't we all in here because of that?? :lol:
I don't know your reality, clavain, it must be working for you.
Mine is God and his word.
Peacefinder
I don't know your reality, clavain, it must be working for you.
Mine is God and his word.
Peacefinder
lawyerguy
Well-known member
Hi Peacefinder,
I do not believe God is an evil dictator you misunderstand my position.
I do not even believe in God. Much less believe he is an evil dictator
I am saying that the God of Christianty, islam, Judaism,. . . if he is true . . Does not grant us free will.
I respect your beliefs as well.
Some disclosure,
My disbelief in God is not based upon emotion or some sort of bitterness. I am open to all possibilities. My disbelief is based upon the fact that there is no logical evidence of God's existence.
Faith is belief in things unseen. Delusion is also belief in things unseen.
if you will pray that I see god, I will hope in time that you shall be enlightenned by the light of logic and reason.
I do not believe God is an evil dictator you misunderstand my position.
I do not even believe in God. Much less believe he is an evil dictator
I am saying that the God of Christianty, islam, Judaism,. . . if he is true . . Does not grant us free will.
I respect your beliefs as well.
Some disclosure,
My disbelief in God is not based upon emotion or some sort of bitterness. I am open to all possibilities. My disbelief is based upon the fact that there is no logical evidence of God's existence.
Faith is belief in things unseen. Delusion is also belief in things unseen.
if you will pray that I see god, I will hope in time that you shall be enlightenned by the light of logic and reason.