What RELIGION are you?

[cLavain]

I'm sorry if my use of the word 'better' caused confusion. Lawyerguy explains it very well, though.

Good, bad and evil are still relative quantities, the world is far too complex for it to be otherwise. But it is in our own self interest to agree on some social rules, a social contract if you like. By agreeing on a law prohibiting murder, I make it less likely that I myself will be murdered by a stranger. It's no guarantee, but the fact that religious people are just as guilty of murder as others is a good indication that divine rules are not superior to secular ones.

Since a certain degree of cooperation is usually useful for animals, an individual in a species that cannot cooperate with its own kind is likely to have its DNA removed from the gene pool by natural selection (less or no offspring).

By the way, Zipper: I think we agree on the Christianity issue, but can't you see that your rigid definition of Good is contradicted by reality? Even when it comes to something 'obvious' like murder, there is still the matter of killing in self defence, being ordered to kill in a war (sometimes by some religious authority).

 

[amberfirez]

Well, I consider myself to be Pagan/Wiccan. Seems that's common here, I'm used to people asking "What does that mean?" or thinking I'm an evil witch!

 

[Si]

O.k you seemingly knowledgable characters.Some questions for you.Your individual opinions on how you think life began ? How do you think our life expectancy has been determined ? Surely if we evolved then we should progressively live longer and longer.The species should be evolving longivety ? If there is right and wrong then there must be law.Where did this law originate from ? :?:

 

[amberfirez]

Your individual opinions on how you think life began ?
Well if there is such thing as life, and if it is what it appears to be, then the simplest forms developed into the beings that are around now.

How do you think our life expectancy has been determined ? Surely if we evolved then we should progressively live longer and longer.The species should be evolving longivety ?
Well we only live so that we can breed. We need not live beyond our fertile years. The only purpose is to raise children/grand children. It would be silly if we all lived too long, then the world would become over populated. (which it has due to our long life expectancies now)

If there is right and wrong then there must be law.Where did this law originate from
I dont believe there is such thing as right and wrong. It is a human concept. Animals do not have these laws.

 

[cLavain]

Your individual opinions on how you think life began?
Good question! Once the first self-replicating molecule (a very crude RNA-like structure for instance) appears, progress is probably almost inevitable due to natural selection. Every mutation that increases the molecule's chance/rate of replication will mean more versions of this molecule which might again mutate into more effective versions of themselves. The result is ever more advanced life, but it takes an awfully long time to reach something like an animal!
The big question is how this proto-life came into existence in the first place. No one knows at this point, but considering the several billion billions of solar systems in the universe and the unbelievable number of atoms and molecules that constantly collide plus external forces like lightning the amount of 'luck' needed to kick start the process is reduced. Look at it this way: If you play the lottery by spending millions of dollars, then you are much more likely to win, right?

Your second question is also very interesting. A biologist may be better suited to answer that, but I suspect amberfirez has a point.
-A species that lived forever would soon exhaust all available resources and be reduced to a small number of individuals. The smaller the population, the greater the chance that your species will be wiped out by some event. A better strategy is to multiply as much as possible to spread the risk.
-Plus, an older being is vulnerable to environmental changes, whereas their offspring may develop a mutation that will increase its chances of survival in the new environment. New generations are therefore necessary to avoid stagnation. Again, natural selection will reward adaptability!

The right/wrong issue has been explained thoroughly already. See earlier answers.

 

[Zipper]

O.k you seemingly knowledgable characters.Some questions for you.Your individual opinions on how you think life began ? How do you think our life expectancy has been determined ? Surely if we evolved then we should progressively live longer and longer.The species should be evolving longivety ? If there is right and wrong then there must be law.Where did this law originate from ? :?:

We all agree that there is a need to answer these questions and the questions cannot all be answered in a purely materialistic or scientific way. What Christians misunderstand is that the very legitimate need to address these questions in the form of mythology, narrative, and story DOES NOT lead us by necessity to accept Christianity's dark and gloomy theories of God-man relations. The proof of existence of God, or need for answers of transcendent questions does not move us one inch toward the Christian waking nightmare.

The myths of the Navajo people answered these ponderable questions about the origins of the universe as well as the Bibel does, yet they managed to leave out the theories of a compulsively and relentlessly cruel God that we see in Christianity.

In order for Christians to examine and defend the only unique and novel aspects of Christianity, there are just a few questions to address. All of us are willing to believe in the existence of evil, miracles, a virgin birth, healing of the blind, and that we saw a lightning bolt fly from God and strike a man dead for reasons understood by God and not necessarily by us. We are ready to believe that God sends floods, fires, volcanos, hurricanes, sulphur from the sky. for reasons understood by God an not necessarily by us. We are prepared to accept that the earth sits on the back of a turtle, was emanated out of a flower, or was vomited out of a bird's mouth. We will accept any manner of fanciful story to help us to get some sense of the substance at the center of reality, and some group story about where we came from, where we're going, and how we get there.

You say:

I certainly don't want to be standing in front of God on judgement day ever wondering why I was worshipping elephants/cats/planets or whatever.

Why not? What are the risks and rewards of the atheist being operated upon by God's infinite wrath on the day of Judgment? The thing Christians must defend is this:

Why do we deserve to be punished? Why is the currency of the debt for sin measured in human suffering? Who chose that currency, and why? How does it make sense that this can and should be the currency by which the debt for evil is discharged? Why is divine judgment retributively penal rather than retributively pedagogical? What is the value to God of rendering penal judgments upon the non-believing sinner?

And remember, "the BIble says so" is not an explanation of the doctrine, it is a repetition of where you found it. I KNOW where you found the theory, because I found it too. I just want to know whether and how it makes sense and why I should not regard it as slander of divine judgment -- dishonoring to God and unworthy of man's belief.

If its such good news, then why does it suck? Words cannot express how I feel about the Bible.

 

[Diluted_Acid]

Im Jewish, passed on by my mother, but i don't practice Judaism. I'd say im agnostic.

 

[Si]

Wether you are christian,atheist or whatever this is a fascinating subject.But I would like to hear more answers from those that believe in evolution.

1/ How come life has never been discovered on other planets (that we know of ) ?

2/How come we have the only habitable atmosphere ?

3/How did time come into existense unless it was created for us (surely in an infinite universe time does not exist) ?

4/It all seems very convenient how everything in our solar system operates.If we were any closer or any further from the sun it would be catastrohic for any life on earth.The earth rotates once every 24 hours giving us day and night.In the day we work and in the night we sleep.This is just what our bodies require.It seems the earth has been specifically designed for us.There must be a higher intelligence for all this to work together in such unity.

I welcome your comments.

 

[SteveSimpson]

Wether you are christian,atheist or whatever this is a fascinating subject.But I would like to hear more answers from those that believe in evolution.

1/ How come life has never been discovered on other planets (that we know of ) ?

As you can imagine, the laws of physics mean that the right conditions for life to exist aren't very common. Think of how cold it gets in Winter and how hot it gets in Summer. Earth is very finely balanced.

2/How come we have the only habitable atmosphere ?

Probability suggests that there probably is loads of habitable planets throughout the universe. They might be at least a light-year or two away though and unfortunately we aren't able to travel that far (or indeed see very clearly with even the best telescopes.)

3/How did time come into existense unless it was created for us (surely in an infinite universe time does not exist) ?

It was created? Then who created the creator of time and indeed the universe? At some point you just have to accept that things are the way they are. Inventing a magical being doesn't make it any easier to accept.

4/It all seems very convenient how everything in our solar system operates.If we were any closer or any further from the sun it would be catastrohic for any life on earth.The earth rotates once every 24 hours giving us day and night.In the day we work and in the night we sleep.This is just what our bodies require.It seems the earth has been specifically designed for us.There must be a higher intelligence for all this to work together in such unity.

Actually it's more a case of Earth's inhabitants adapting to the environment. You're right in that it's very convenient that Earth's conditions are suitable for life but if they weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation. As for people sleeping at night, what about nocturnal animals?

People really need to think outside of just our solar system. Recently scientists witnessed a star exploding 13 billion light-years away. That means that it actually exploded 13 billion years ago and we're just witnessing it now.

 

[cLavain]

1/ How come life has never been discovered on other planets (that we know of ) ?

Because we have only been to Earth (+ our moon). There are, however, at least 70,000 million million million stars in the universe, so there's much to explore! (Where do I sign up?) http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/07/22/stars.survey/

2/How come we have the only habitable atmosphere ?

We don't know that. In this solar system that's probably true, although some speculate that there may be primitive life in the oceans of Europa (jupiters moon).

3/How did time come into existense unless it was created for us (surely in an infinite universe time does not exist) ?

As Steve says, a creator does not solve anything. You might be lazy and simply say that the creator has always existed, but then one might as well say that time has always existed or life has always existed or the universe has always existed.

4/It all seems very convenient how everything in our solar system operates.If we were any closer or any further from the sun it would be catastrohic for any life on earth.The earth rotates once every 24 hours giving us day and night.In the day we work and in the night we sleep.This is just what our bodies require.It seems the earth has been specifically designed for us.There must be a higher intelligence for all this to work together in such unity.

LOL! This reminds of something Douglas Adams said:
If a pool of water suddenly became self aware, then it would probably think to itself: '"Wow! This world is made for me! This hollow I'm in is perfectly shaped for me! There must be some intelligent design behind this!'

 

[amberfirez]

1) Why does the bible not mention dinosaurs?
2) Why does it not mention other planets? (And I would say aliens but there is no proof of that quite yet!)
3) Why does the bible completely contradict itself?
4)Religious people often use the argument 'if there is no god then where did life come from?'. Well, if there is a god, where did he come from? if you answer 'he just was', then I say 'life just was'.

(I only mention the bible because it is the only holy book I have read I mean the old and new testament. Dont want to guess what the others say and get it wrong!)

 

[Zipper]

Father Zosima: "Fathers and teachers, I ponder, "What is hell?" They talk of hell fire in the material sense. I don't go into that mystery and I shun it. I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love."

Russian Orthodox theology of God-man relations, as expressed by the character "Father Zosima" in Fyodor Dostoevsky's novel "Brothers Karamazov" is essentially Neo-Platonist. The central theologians of Orthodoxy: St. Simeon the New Theologian, St. Maximos the Confessor, St. Gregory of Nyssa and others were as neo-platonist in orientation as any pre-christian ancient greek philosopher.

The Orthodox are as hostile to Biblical Christianity as I am. See the popular essay, "The River of Fire":

"This is hell: the negation of love; the return of hate for love; bitterness at seeing innocent joy; to be surrounded by love and to have hate in one's heart. This is the eternal condition of all the damned."
http://www.stnectariospress.com/parish/river_of_fire.htm

Hi Zipper,

You attack & denounce christianity, but the "prophet" of your "religion" (i.e. Plato) wanted to create a dystopian society & preached infanticide, eugenics & destruction of the family unit; his Utopia is our dystopia, as represented in Brave New World & (to a lesser extent) 1984; the ever-present threat of "Big Brother" can be traced back to him.

What do you think of this ideology ?!!

The methodology of union with God and theological and moral discovery that is called "NeoPlatonism" is a project that hundreds of people developed and participated in, including Plotinus, Prophyry, Iamblichus, Proclus, etc. It does not belong to Plato. Plato is not a "prophet" of Neo-Platonism, nor are there sacred Scriptures of the religion. Neoplatonism is a project that all are called to join in together. And it is a project that brings Christianity to its swift destruction as the One draws us into the eternal world.

The point is not that we accept any moral conclusions that one person arrived at, but that we know a methodology of discovery that will lead us into all truth this is a process that does not end with the fixed answers of any one person. If Plato was wrong about his specific opinions, such errors are corrected by operation of divine judgment drawing us into the eternal world where we see the truth unfolding like a book whose spine has just now been cracked.

 

[PhantomPod]

I'm Catholic.

 

[Nytro]

with all the organizations and "propaganda" thats spit out things, contradict other things and people who hold onto their beleifs as a security blanket end up making stuff up to help quiet those who have legitamate disagreements or opinions.

For Christianity, I was brought up into it, but its a time in my life where I question what I once so easily beleived without question. Everything in front of us is too beautiful(like nature) and intellegent. But when Christians bring up this great battle with God and Satan, it seems to barbaic and primative. I want to find purpose in my old Christian beliefs, many of the morals I agree with but the way the Bible discusses things I cant see as what God really is like to me. I see God as good, not a tyrant. I feel as if the more I dig into the Bible and the see the way the finatical beleivers act, the less I feel about Christianity.

Where does someone turn when theres no legitimate answer. Check my earlier reply to this post and check on what I beleive and let me know what you think. What ever is the truth, im looking for it.

 

[Zipper]

If Plato was wrong about his specific opinions...

"IF" ??!! You've avoided answering my question. Do you denounce the platonic idealism I mentioned earlier ? Are you in accordance with it ? - Or do you just conveniently overlook it ?

The name Zosima is a reflection of my literary tastes rather than my religion; I'm an agnostic.

Well, in any case Plato was not a NeoPlatonist. The NeoPlatonist were second generation theologians such as Plotinus.

But my point remains -- NeoPlatonism does not include any specific conclusions about the substance of the moral law. It provides a methodology of arriving at such conclusions. If I arrive at one conclusion and someone else arrives at another, we hash it out and make progress together to try to understand the mind of God.

But to answer your specific questions, I believe that a policy of eugenics and forced social reorganization is not good.

 

[itchy]

1) Why does the bible not mention dinosaurs?

actually I think it does...job 40:15 - job 41...
http://www.bartleby.com/108/18/40.html

also, just one more thing I'd like to add on the topic of faith...if someone you loved was accused of a crime, and all the evidence was against them, and yet they looked you in the eye and assured you they were innocent, if you loved and trusted this person, would you put your faith in them or the science?
faith is something that defies science. it's something that makes us human. The human spirit, man. You can't test it but I know you all feel it.

 

[cLavain]

also, just one more thing I'd like to add on the topic of faith...if someone you loved was accused of a crime, and all the evidence was against them, and yet they looked you in the eye and assured you they were innocent, if you loved and trusted this person, would you put your faith in them or the science?

If all evidence was against them, like their fingerprints all over the victim's strangled throat then I would trust science, of course. But at some point, the evidence would be so circumstantial that I would believe them. What were you trying to prove again..?

faith is something that defies science. it's something that makes us human. The human spirit, man. You can't test it but I know you all feel it.

Listen to yourself. You say that you know the 'human spirit' is there, yet at the same time you admit that it can't be proven. Logical alarm bells should be chiming in your head right now, my friend! :?

It's also funny how religious people don't mind using scientific evidence if it supports their own theory, but will happily use the old 'it's a matter of faith'-routine if the evidence contradicts it.

 

[Zipper]

Christianity is not faith in God but the acceptance of somebody's slanderous stories about his character. Faith in God is what atheists have who say: "I'm going to make no provision for escaping the operation of God's infinite wrath."

I mean, we all have social phobia here, and does it show faith in our fellow man that we scheme and strategize for avoiding their judgment, punishment, and rejection? Does it show faith in them when we avoid looking them in the eye, avoid exposing ourselves to their wrath, avoid looking at their boobs, saying stupid things around them? Would we not demonstrate more faith in them if we yielded our soft underbellies to the operation of their scalples?

Nobody wants to injury us, least of all God. And that is why Christianity is not faith in God, but faithless dread. God will break no bruised reeds, will quench no smouldering wicks, but will render judgment unto victory! Unfortunately this understanding of God-man relations is not Christianity but is neo-Platonism.

 

[cLavain]

@Zipper

I view SA as a sort of 'software bug' in my intellect. It is not rational to fear the judgement of other people to this extent. Shyness is a natural trait in my personality that has (unfortunately) been reinforced over the years for various reasons, and has become a serious dysfunction in my brain. I recognize this, but find it hard to change. People learn by repetition (that's how a neural network operates!), and this clearly accentuates the need to stop the negative process before it's too late! Don't let it become a pattern in your brain.

The fear of a vengeful God is probably one of the reasons Christianity stays with us.

 

[Zipper]

The fear of a vengeful God is probably one of the reasons Christianity stays with us.

Try the ONLY reason.

The reason we believe "the soul that sins shall die," "the wages of sin is death" -- divine judgment is penal rather than pedagogical -- is we fear that God told this to someone once.

He didn't. And even if he did, by doing so he would deny any humans warrant to believe in his honesty about his recommended scheme of avoiding such penalty. People who imagine cruelty is justice have denied us a reason to trust that they don't imagine lying to be truthtelling.

There is indeed much to fear from divine judgment, put not because he is cruel, but because he has a scalpel in his hand and we have apendicitis. Approach all judgment this way -- human and divine -- and nothing will permanently bring you to a halt.