What RELIGION are you?

[cLavain]

I believe in God, because I believe in the Goodness of Good, and the truthfulness of Truth, and I believe in the unfolding of beauty by operation of divine judgment.

A text book example of a sentence that is devoid of meaning, but sounds sophisticated and pompous enough to lure the gullible... :lol:

It meant something in Plato's natural theology. If there is a right and a wrong, there must be rightness of right. If there is a good and a bad, there must be a quality of "goodness" of good. The "goodness" of good doesn't in here in the good object itself, but as a transcendent principle that exists elsewhere. That transcendent principle exists in the world of the forms, the mind of God. God IS the goodness of Good.

But there are no such things as good or bad. These are adjectives we choose to label events or actions. Moreover, they are subjective and prone to change over time and between cultures and individuals. Some people think being gay is bad, others think it is good.

I think you're saying that you equate God with your definition of goodness..? Btw, Plato's world of forms is yet another unprovable theory, one of many billions of possible theories the mind can imagine. They are all equally plausible, since none can be disproven. I like the Flying Spaghetti Monster myself. http://www.venganza.org/index.htm

 

[Zipper]

One thing we would all probably agree on is that anybody who believes that there is a divine penalty for the infraction of God's law, or who believes that we unite with God by, and only by, cognitively ruminating "Jesus CHrist is God" should be forbidden from introducing their cognitive parasites into the brains of small children who do not have sufficient intellectual immune systems to resist it. NeoPlatonism teaches that we unite with God by yielding ourselves to the operation of divine judgment which will synergistically transfigure us.

 

[Zipper]

How do Christians know that the Bible was given to them by God rather than by some other less wise and virtuous being (or beings) who gave it to us and claimed that it is a product of God's mind?

 

[Si]

Are you guys atheists, Agnositcs, Buddhists, Pagans, Muslims, Christians, Jews, Taoists, or some concoction of your own?

I am a Neo-Platonist, which is a kind of classical Greek Paganism. I grew up a Christian (my parents are missionaries), but now my only interest in Christianity is in shutting it down (as a part of my own missionary efforts to convert people to Neo-Platonism.

What about you?

Hi Zipper.Thanks for your discussion.It is all very interesting.So how did you come into your Neo-Platonist beliefs ? And why are you so deadset on shutting down Christianity ? :?:

 

[Si]

How do Christians know that the Bible was given to them by God rather than by some other less wise and virtuous being who gave it to us and said that it is a product of God's mind?

For one thing Zipper if the bible was inspired by man then surely there would be self glorification of man himself.But there is no promotion of man anywhere to be seen.And what would a man writing such a book have to gain promoting God.There is too much sound knowledge and wisdom for this book to be inspired by anything less than a creator in my mind at least.

 

[cLavain]

"There is too much sound knowledge and wisdom for this book to be inspired by anything less than a creator in my mind at least."

Well, if Si is impressed then it must of divine origin. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that the people who wrote the Bible were simply smarter than Si. :wink:

And yeah, the wisdom is profound:

"And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.--Dt.3:6"

Sounds good to me... :roll:

Here is a short list of violence in the Bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/short.html

 

[verylonely]

It's so easy and misleading for people to say that religion fuels hatred, and is the cause of many wars.
But i think that religion has just been used as an excuse and been exploited by those who start the wars.
Really wars are about power and greed and domination, and religion has been used as an excuse many times, to cover up real motives. Humans are to blame not religion.

People should be able to believe what they want, and nobody should be treated different because they believe in something.

Humans should have the decency to accept others and not criticise them.

 

[Si]

"There is too much sound knowledge and wisdom for this book to be inspired by anything less than a creator in my mind at least."

Well, if Si is impressed then it must of divine origin. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that the people who wrote the Bible were simply smarter than Si. :wink:

And yeah, the wisdom is profound:

"And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.--Dt.3:6"

Sounds good to me... :roll:

Here is a short list of violence in the Bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/short.html

Hi cLavain.Didn't think it would take long to get a response from you.
If I've come across as a smartarse know-all then I apologise, it is not what I intended.But I would say it is quite possible that you are much more intelligent than me anyway.But not wiser.
Proverbs Ch 9 v10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.......
If there is someone here that should be skeptical about God then maybe it should be me.I'm a motorcycle technician by trade.My job revolves around logical thinking.Repairing physical faults I can see and test.But even my logical mind can still make sense of Gods word.
Maybe we should just agree to disagree.It still comes down to personal choices and what you want to believe.Gods evidence is his word.Believe it or Not !

 

[itchy]

Btw, Plato's world of forms is yet another unprovable theory, one of many billions of possible theories the mind can imagine. They are all equally plausible, since none can be disproven. I like the Flying Spaghetti Monster myself.

when you boil truth down to it's bare bones...the only reality we can each be certain of is our own subjective reality...i.e. I don't know for sure that any of you exist...right? But I believe you do...I have faith that you do...the only 100% true subject in the universe is maths...i.e. 2 + 2 = 4...it's a universal law.
everything else requires a certain degree of faith in some form...philosophy, metaphysics, even science! i.e. evolution is just a theory, based on plenty of evidence of microevolution (changes within a species) but zero evidence of macroevolution (one species changing to another). and the early stages of man are questionable too. Scientists are just humans.
"Scientists never claim absolute knowledge. Unlike a mathematical proof, a proven scientific theory is always open to falsification, if new evidence is presented. Even the most basic and fundamental theories may turn out to be imperfect if new observations are inconsistent with them."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science#Scientific_method
my point is that we all need faith to live, because if we only ever trusted in what was 100% certain we'd only believe in ourselves and mathematics. Putting that into practice, we wouldn't eat food products because we'd require faith in the food industry. We wouldn't use transport because we'd require faith in engineering. We wouldn't leave our homes because we'd require faith in the locks on our doors. We wouldn't send messages to this website because we'd require faith in technology and we probably wouldn't even go to sleep because we'd require faith that we're gonna wake up again!
So the choice is where do we put our faith? and if some people want to place their faith in science, well that's fine, that's their choice, but I believe there's something more to life, more than just flesh and blood, something spiritual...when I listen to music, or look at the sunset, I can feel it...I believe in god.

How do Christians know that the Bible was given to them by God rather than by some other less wise and virtuous being (or beings) who gave it to us and claimed that it is a product of God's mind?

several reasons. Firstly, 100% prophetic accuracy. Secondly, its historical and arcaelogical accuracy. Thirdly, its unity...i.e. 66 books, written over 1500 years, by 40 different authors, in 3 different languages, on 3 different continents, and yet remains totally consistent without contradiction. Fourthly, the indestructibility of the bible. It's faced loads of attacks and yet is still the most widely published book in the world. Plus, also, just the power of this book, the amount of stories you hear of lives being totally changed because of the truth inside this book.

Here is a short list of violence in the Bible:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/short.html

"'...I will make a new covenent...it will not be like the old covenent'...By calling this covenant "new", he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and ageing will soon disappear" [hebrews 8: 8-13]
I haven't looked into the old testament greatly, but I believe lots of things were different in those days. As for the few violent verse's in the new testament apart from revelation, I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be symbolic.

 

[cLavain]

He he, yeah, there seems to be a seven posts per day limit on this forum. Guess I've been too active! 8)

Well, it's obvious we are not getting anywhere. I won't claim to be either intelligent or wise, but I would just like to say that wisdom must be subject to logic just like intelligence. Otherwise, people can justify horrible actions like suicide bombings and killing doctors simply by saying it is God's will. Not that I'm accusing you of that, of course!

Your version of Christianity seems benign enough, and if it makes you happy then good for you. But once you start questioning the 'truths' in religion, it all falls apart. You simply have to take the word of the authors of the Bible, and frankly, why should you?

 

[cLavain]

Hi there, Itchy,

Much of what you're saying is true, of course we have to take for granted that we exist at all and nothing can be proven other than by repeated observation of the phenomen or by mathematical axioms. You could argue though, that if it feels like existing, then you might as well go along with it, because there is no way out of this 'simulation', no way to expose the 'charade', other than (possibly) dying! But some things are easier to believe in than others. The notion of God has no observable effects that might verify it.

On the subject of macroevolution, I suggest you read The Blind Watchmaker by Dawkins, especially the part about the biomorph program, which shows that even a simple algorithm can cause enormous changes given enough time. The key phrase here is cumulative selection via billions of generations. It's really fascinating! If the book does not prove macroevolution, then it at least it shows that it is actually possible, thus demolishing Creationists main argument.

 

[beautiful]

I was christenned but I believe more about spirituality after some spiritual experiences Ive had!

Maybe one day when Ive got rid of my SP, I might go to a spiritualist church and find out if I do have these powers - I would love to do that but 100% doubt I ever would

 

[cLavain]

I was christenned but I believe more about spirituality after some spiritual experiences Ive had!

Maybe one day when Ive got rid of my SP, I might go to a spiritualist church and find out if I do have these powers - I would love to do that but 100% doubt I ever would

But, Beautiful, perhaps you're a great person even without these mystical super powers!

 

[Zipper]

Christianity is the most fascinating phenomenon in human history. It is a truly remarkable thing. I should write a book about exactly how amazing Christianity is. I don't think there is anything as wonderfully amazing in the history of our species or our planet as Christianity.

Christianity has the ability to disguise what it is in the most adept way, and so conquer a mind, that the host does not even know what has happened to it. It has the ability to so distort a person's cognitive understanding of reality, that it is difficult to know how a person infected with Christianity does not just go back to bed with a raging migraine. It has the ability to only subtly disturb a person's ruminations such that the person can still survive and bring it to others.

Christianity is a living thing much the way a virus is a living thing. It has no subjective consciousness of its own, but has the ability to survive and reproduce itself in a relentless way. It preys on the cognitive processes of humans and relies upon linguistic words. It is essentially a word game.

It is virtually indestructible. There are no known vaccines or cures. The human brain is almost totally merciless against its onslaught and has little to no immune resistance.

But no matter how interesting I find it to be, I would like to kill it because I think it is functionally perverse. I do, however, recognize that if it were gone, it would be replaced by similar entities of its kind.

 

[Nytro]

PLEASE READ, ITS LONG but maybe we can agree with it.

It's so easy and misleading for people to say that religion fuels hatred, and is the cause of many wars.
But i think that religion has just been used as an excuse and been exploited by those who start the wars.
Really wars are about power and greed and domination, and religion has been used as an excuse many times, to cover up real motives. Humans are to blame not religion.

People should be able to believe what they want, and nobody should be treated different because they believe in something.

Humans should have the decency to accept others and not criticise them.

Thank you for that, thats the best way to put it, when millions of people have been killed in the name of God(s). The one thing I dont get is, if these leaders claim to be under the grace of God, and the people who follow them beleiving its Gods will...I dont understand why God just sits their as his follows commit these crimes. Their are miracles found all over the world, like statues crying blood and paintings water. Why wouldnt God instead contact these people in someway to stop.

I want to get into Christianity, but its real things like this that puzzle me.
Does God ever communicate with humankind nowadays? And if so why doesnt God stop brainwashed terrorists who call to his name. Judism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same God.

So either all miracles are false or our perception on religion is false. Man could have created all religions and God just sits back, and we find the Truth when we are dead. Or one of the religions is right but God doesnt intervien with Earth, kinda like the movie "Constantine".

I would love to post up more debate material, because im searching all over the place for some kind of answer for my beliefs.

And that is: Beleif in one supreme being "God", dunno if Jesus was actually God or a profit with amazing abilities, through some kind of spiritual enlightenment or even exagerations. When I pray to my creator, I have a scense of certainty, when I think about praying to Jesus, I feel uncomfortable in the fear im not really praying to God. I find some key points in Buddism, like the human search for supreme happiness very important (good for your physical and mental health too). Many faiths beleive one shouldnt focus on oneself but put everything in the faith of God, if we did that we would still be in the stoneage, wouldnt we?
I beleive in the morals of society that we influnced from people as well as religions (like killing, rape, stealing are wrong), and find many morals true to the Bible, like love thy neighbor.
And I beleive in my existance, because all my scenses and mind reveal to me an existance. Reincarnation could be real or not, like everything else its debateable. But I beleive God is loving, and omnicient and understands people like me who searchs for the Truth. If I died right now I believe God wouldnt hold it against me that in my life, I didnt beleive that Jesus was God because of my rationality on the subject and that with my constant atempts to convince myself, I just couldnt force myself to beleive it. (Like the flying spagetti monster, lol) , or whatever we beleive in as long as we are good moral people, who in our idea of rights and wrongs, do the most good. (Oh yea and what turns me away farther from Christianity is when fanatics tell me, im wrong and if I dont beleive in exactly they beleive I will go to hell.)

These are my Core Truths but I am searching for more.

Please someone help me out on this, most Organized Religion is bogus, its
a corporate entity. Im searching for Spirituality.

 

[lawyerguy]

Hi,

I've been over this topic a million times. I'm an atheist. However I am a truth seeker first and foremost. If the evidence shows that there is a God I would be happy to believe in a god. Or zeus, or vishnu, or buddha, or allah, or any of the millions of other deities that human beings have put forward as the supreme deity. And if the evidence shows that there isn't a god then I will believe that.

I don't care if anyone else believes in God or does not believe in god. The only thing I ask is that everyone keep an open mind. That is, the most hardenned atheist must consider the possibility that there is a god, and the most fervant christian must consider the possibility that there isn't a god. Closing your mind to possibilities is closing your mind to possible truths. Think critically, do not accept propaganda, be willing to question your most cherished assumptions, and come to your own conclusions.

For me, at this moment, the logic and evidence so far does not show me that there is a god. But if The red sea were to part, I would probably be a believer. I keep an open mind.

 

[cLavain]

No one has answered my question yet: Why do we need to invoke some god at all? I personally believe us humans can make a better world all by ourselves.

WHY DON'T YOU?

You obviously have faith in your god, but little faith in your fellow man.

 

[Zipper]

No one has answered my question yet: Why do we need to invoke some god at all? I personally believe us humans can make a better world all by ourselves.

WHY DON'T YOU?

You obviously have faith in your god, but little faith in your fellow man.

Your question itself is the answer. You say that "us humans can make a better world," thus you recognize that there is a "better" and a "worse." You have in your mind some movement from "bad" to "good," a type of an ontological reconstruction.

Yet, just a second ago you said you thought that "good" and "bad" did not exist as such but were all relative. Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later.

It seems, then, we are forced to believe in a real Right and Wrong. People may be sometimes mistaken about them, just as people sometimes get their sums wrong; but they are not a matter of mere taste and opinion any more than the multiplication table.

Consequently, this Rule of Right and Wrong, or Law of Human Nature, or whatever you call it, must somehow or other be a real thing- a thing that is really there, not made up by ourselves. And yet it is not a fact in the ordinary sense, in the same way as our actual behaviour is a fact. It begins to look as if we shall have to admit that there is more than one kind of reality; that, in this particular case, there is something above and beyond the ordinary facts of men's behaviour, and yet quite definitely real-a real law, which none of as made, but which we find pressing on us.

I think we have to assume it is more like a mind than it is like anything else we know-because after all the only other thing we know is matter and you can hardly imagine a bit of matter speaking of the difference between good and bad.

If there is a right and a wrong, there is a God in whose mind exists the rightness of Right. This is Neo-Platonism.

But Christianity has to be dismantled piece by piece. To represent the living God in the manner Christians do is to veil his face with a mask of cruelty and hypocrisy. Better to believe in no God at all than to believe in the Christian caricature of him.

 

[lawyerguy]

I think when cClavin says he wants "better world" for us, he doesn't mean better in terms of some metaphysical concept of good or evil. We all have senses that are the product of millions of years of biological evolution. And we all have emotions that are also the result of millions of years of biological evolution. Obviously when we are cut by knives, our senses register that as "bad" because knives piercing our skins, are "bad", for us in a larger evolutionary sense. They are bad for us in a larger evolutionary sense because our skins being pierced usualy leads to loss of blood, infections, and possibly death. And if we are dead then we are not able to procreate. To procreate isn't "good" or "bad". It just is.

Going back to what cClavin said... morals, or what we think are "good" and "bad" are largely social constructs reaffirmed by repetition and ritual. What was once immoral, often time becomes moral. What is moral in one society is often regarded as immoral in another society. Homosexuality, slavery, women wearing scarves over their heads or not wearing scarves, abortion, death penalty, ... are but a few examples.

When Atheists say that we want the "betterment" of society, that does not mean that we wanto to increase some amorphous metaphysical "good". It means we want to increase or maximize the the amount of pleasant experiences all humans experience and minimize unpleasant experiences. Indeed all higher animals with evolved nervous systems experience pleasant sensations. And all higher animals experience unpleasant sensations. A chimp is upset when it is assaulted by another chimp, in the same way human beings are upset when they are assaulted by other human beings. The existence of "good" and "evil" , right or wrong, are no more real for a monkey because he gains pleasure by filling his tummy with bananas, than it is for a human who gains pleasure from filling his belly with food to alleviate hunger. . Food, shelter for all, peace on earth... These things are "good" because they alleviate human maladies and allow us to avoid unpleasant sensations, like hunger, physical injury, or emotional Injury, or violence upon our person. We use "good" and "bad" in these situations because the english language has yet to bifrucate the meaning of Good into more percise terms. We do not use "good" and "bad" in the classical, "moral sense".

Pleasant and unpleasant experiences do not exist in and of themselves. They are not metaphysical concepts. They are mechanisms that the human species has created to increase its odds for survival. Members of our species who liked to bleed profusely and be eaten by tigers didn't survive long. Our human species has evolved to find those experiences unpleasant. Survival of the human species is neither "good", "bad", or "evil", in the same way the survival of the dinosaur species was neither "good" "bad" or "evil". It just is.

Our culture and every cultures has ritualized and supernaturalized the unpleasant experiences and created myths around them to heighten their importance. Unpleasant experiences have been elevated to the status of "evil" or "bad" and pleasant experiences have been elevated to the status of "good"

 

[Zipper]

What do Christians mean when they say that sinners deserve to be the objects of a divine punishment?