What RELIGION are you?

[Beyondshy]

For simplicity sake I'll just give one thread for now....which is this...if I'm honest, I've noticed in myself a bias....I WANT to believe that God exists. I WANT to believe that when I'm lonely, lost and confused, that there is a GOOD god watching over me and there is meaning and purpose to my suffering. But if there is no God, next time I'm lonely, lost and confused, I'm scared that the despair at this realisation that we're ultimately alone and ultimately have no purpose, will be overwhelming. So my question is this...as an atheist, how do you find comfort knowing that we're ultimately alone in the universe and how do you find meaning, when ultimately there's no purpose and we're all destined to die?

I think I'd understand this question better if you could explain what kind of comfort you'd feel if you believed in God and what meaning or purpose you think this would give your life.

I believe that we only get one chance at life. No reincarnation. No eternal life in heaven or hell. Just the life we are living now. I think this gives my life more meaning that it would if I did believe in those things. I live in the now. I do things that I enjoy doing. I try to learn as much as possible. I try to help others as much as I can. This is what gives my life meaning. How would that change if I believed in God?

 

[TheNewZero]

We choose our own purposes and find our own meaning as individuals. As an atheist I find comfort in relationships, laughter, a warm bed, and so on - the same ways that everyone else finds comfort - EXCEPT I don't subscribe to belief in an imaginary, grumpy, invisible man in the sky or any other fairy tales.

I think to assume that a higher power of being has to be an invisible man in the sky is selling yourself short. I used to be atheist, and now am sort of pagan-ish. I believe in a higher power, but not one that has human characteristics. I think it is comforting to think that there is something out there, even if it isn't a man with a beard sitting on a cloud. I think that there should be more to any higher power than just that, and trying to look at what he/she/it really is is quite amazing.

 

[worrywort]

yes I agree, I also find comfort in all those things such as relationships, laughter, a warm bed, etc. I can go to work, so that I can get paid, so that I can live comfortably and buy things I enjoy. Yes, life can bring me comfort. But here's my problem, I can't seem to stop asking the question.....why or what then?....i.e I could go to school and work hard so that I get good grades. Why? Because it would make me feel good and I could get a good job. Why get a good job? Because then I can live comfortably and happy. But what then? retirement and death.....and then what? My ultimate meaning in life would have been to survive and to be happy. I could live one of the greatest lives ever lived. I could be this centurys john lennon or ghandi, but if I'm ultimately going to die then what's the point?....

....This is how this question makes me feel. It's like this...imagine walking through the woods creating many things as you go. You build a building here, paint a painting there, you build treehouses and birdbaths all along your path. But following you all the way is this monster that demolishes everything you create immediately after you've created it. The atheist response would be that it doesn't matter, just building the buildings is meaningful enough. It keeps you occupied and happy for the time being. Once you're finished it doesn't matter if it gets demolished. You just find something else to occupy your time and keep you happy, until ultimately you reach the end of your path and the monster finally demolishes you....and that's it!.....and I just don't know...I guess this philosophy could be true, but it just doesn't feel right to me. I guess maybe it's not about comfort, maybe it's about the truth, and maybe we really are out here all alone, and maybe it really is a case of just trying to survive cause there's nothing else to do.

As for the comfort I expect to get if there is a God, I guess it's the times when my life goes off the rails and I hit the bottom. To believe that there is a good god with me and that I'm not alone and that there is meaning in my suffering and that there is a God who cares about me and can manipulate the entire universe to get the best out of me and that there is a greater plan to everything. To believe that there is an ultimate answer to everything, far above anything the greatest human intellect could conjour up. To have somebody like this to turn to in times of trouble, no matter the depths that those troubles take me to. To have somebody to pray to when my dad gets ill and there's nothing I can do and it's beyond my control and I feel desperate and totally overwhelmed and out of my depths in the world. To believe that there is a saviour, that there is a being of ultimate goodness and love that can save this world from all the atrocities and terrible things that occur within it. Sorry if this is sounding a bit grandiose, but I think that kind of captures the hope that I feel. This is my bias. This is what I WANT to believe....and this is the hope I feel I will have to give up if I concede that there is no God.

 

[Riiya]

I think to assume that a higher power of being has to be an invisible man in the sky is selling yourself short. I used to be atheist, and now am sort of pagan-ish. I believe in a higher power, but not one that has human characteristics. I think it is comforting to think that there is something out there, even if it isn't a man with a beard sitting on a cloud. I think that there should be more to any higher power than just that, and trying to look at what he/she/it really is is quite amazing.

I don't believe in something because it's comforting, I believe in something because it's [what I believe to be] true.

Not sure if I want to join the theist/atheist debate. Life must be easy in a world where a theist is either a Christian, a Muslim, or a Buddhist. Screw the Jewish - they don't count.

 

[Nervous]

Life must be easy in a world where a theist is either a Christian, a Muslim, or a Buddhist. Screw the Jewish - they don't count.

Life would be easier. Don't forget the Pagans and Hindus.

 

[powerfulthoughts]

We choose our own purposes and find our own meaning as individuals. As an atheist I find comfort in relationships, laughter, a warm bed, and so on - the same ways that everyone else finds comfort - EXCEPT I don't subscribe to belief in an imaginary, grumpy, invisible man in the sky or any other fairy tales.

Two words: straw man. You're constructing a false concept and then deriding your own distorted idea. No one claims God is a grumpy man in the sky. God is a spiritual being that operates on levels you or I could never comprehend. "His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not like our thoughts." The way you dummy this whole thing down is silly. Some of the greatest minds to ever live have been deeply spiritual men who have not only entertained the notion of God, but deeply and wholly lived for Him. And so to compare God (or Christ) to Santa Claus is, again, a silly and even childish way to devalue everything about Christianity in your own mind. Of course, you are welcome to operate at this level, but you only cover up your own sense of intellectualism in this way. Blinding your own mind to the possibility by false outrageous generalizations is not helpful. If you want to debate it seriously, then that is great. But to act as if debate in itself, of something so critically important throughout the history of our existence, is akin to debating Santa Claus, etc. is down right asinine.

 

[powerfulthoughts]

Yes, it’s silly to humanize God, but it is fair to compare God to Santa because it simply illustrates how one is no more plausible than the other.

This shows the lack of depth in your thinking. The logic inherent in designed systems (as we human beings are) indicates that some intelligence is behind it. And that logic alone merits much more plausibility for God then does a Santa and Rudolph comparison. But that logic is only the foundation/beginning of learning about God. God instructs us on how to have peace, how to live righteously, and how to avoid evil. Those who submit to God and live for Him in a deep and real way have had fulfillment and satisfaction in a way that the world cannot give. Understanding of human nature, of what God wants, etc. are all aspects of God's role in our understanding and purpose in the world.

The childish dismissal of "God and Santa are the same" truly shows you have a lack of spiritual and intellectual discernment. The idea may be to break apart the complexity of God and the Bible so one can feel better about ridiculing and disbelieving it, but really it just breaks apart your credibility. If you really want to understand the nature and love of God, then it's up to you to seek out the answers, look to the Bible and do what you can. Not just go with the childish current of "haha, yeah it's just like rudolph!" Rubbish.

 

[SickJoke]

I think to assume that a higher power of being has to be an invisible man in the sky is selling yourself short.

I assume there is no higher power. The invisible man in the sky is just my way of describing the Abrahamic religions.

I think it is comforting to think that there is something out there, even if it isn't a man with a beard sitting on a cloud. I think that there should be more to any higher power than just that, and trying to look at what he/she/it really is is quite amazing.

Sure it might be comforting, but that doesn't give it any credibility. You can believe something because it's comforting if you want, but I choose to use logic and evidence.

Two words: straw man. You're constructing a false concept and then deriding your own distorted idea. No one claims God is a grumpy man in the sky.

The Abrahamic religions describe him that way (but with prettier words).

God is a spiritual being that operates on levels you or I could never comprehend.

How do you know that? What evidence or reason do you have to believe that?

The way you dummy this whole thing down is silly.

Religion is silly and should be treated as such.

Some of the greatest minds to ever live have been deeply spiritual men who have not only entertained the notion of God, but deeply and wholly lived for Him.

It's possible for a scientist to turn off his logic when it comes to religion because of culture and tradition. Some of the greatest minds are theists and others are atheists.

But to act as if debate in itself, of something so critically important throughout the history of our existence, is akin to debating Santa Claus, etc. is down right asinine.

There is no evidence for a god, just as there is no evidence for Santa Claus. Jesus is just Santa Claus for adults. There's really nothing to debate here until someone can provide evidence for a god.

 

[SickJoke]

The logic inherent in designed systems (as we human beings are) indicates that some intelligence is behind it.

Humans are designed? What evidence do you have for that? Evolution is a fact. The complexity of life does not require a designer. We are shaped by natural selection.

But that logic is only the foundation/beginning of learning about God. God instructs us on how to have peace, how to live righteously, and how to avoid evil. Those who submit to God and live for Him in a deep and real way have had fulfillment and satisfaction in a way that the world cannot give. Understanding of human nature, of what God wants, etc. are all aspects of God's role in our understanding and purpose in the world.

Which god are you talking about? What makes you think that your god is the right god? How do you know the Ancient Greeks were wrong about Zeus and Apollo and Ares? How do you know the Vikings were wrong about Thor and his hammer? It used to be widely accepted that god was the sun. Now science tells us that the sun is just a giant ball of gas.

My point is that modern religions are just as absurd as Zeus, Thor, the Sun God, Santa Claus, and so on. We are a poorly evolved mammalian species, and we're afraid to die, so we cling to these beliefs for comfort, but they have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. They're just a bunch of ancient fairy tales.

 

[powerfulthoughts]

I assume there is no higher power. The invisible man in the sky is just my way of describing the Abrahamic religions.

But God is not described as your straw man version. Your version is to suit your own ideas. God is described as a spiritual entity with attributes invisible to our eyes. "No one has seen God" the Bible says. Therefore your version, and the way you describe it is flat out wrong.

Sure it might be comforting, but that doesn't give it any credibility. You can believe something because it's comforting if you want, but I choose to use logic and evidence.

Logic and evidence? Is this what you think you're using by declaring God to be a grumpy santa claus? Logic and evidence would be to seek out how others have benefited from living for God -- asking about their experience, reading the Bible from a curious and open minded perspective. Listening and understanding while asking questions, not assuming that you are so enlightened and "scientific" that you know the whole logic, purpose (or lack thereof) and nature of the universe.
In doing that, you are making your own religion out of science, and using it in ways that is not possible, ie, to figure out mankind's existence and purpose. Science is at its best when it is used operationally, which is how things like computers and rocket ships are built. And it's at its worst trying to figure out the distant past.

The Abrahamic religions describe him that way (but with prettier words).

Where does it describe God as a grumpy man in the sky, and not as an invisible, righteous spirit?

How do you know that? What evidence or reason do you have to believe that?

When I see gang bangers turning their life around to live righteously, and depressed people being lifted out of the dumps, and desperate people finding hope, these things indicate to me that God operates at a much higher level than we can. We seem to only be able to suppress the garbage in life, where as God frees people from it. Again, look into it. Try this guy:

YouTube - A GANGSTER'S TESTIMONY and view more at YouTube - Canal de est1

Religion is silly and should be treated as such.

Just-so statements are silly.

It's possible for a scientist to turn off his logic when it comes to religion because of culture and tradition. Some of the greatest minds are theists and others are atheists.

That's the best you can come up with? Scientists just turn off their logic because of tradition and culture, yet sick joke is so enlightened with reason that he knows all religion is just so silly? Thanks for admitting some of the greatest minds are theists though -- that's progress.

There is no evidence for a god, just as there is no evidence for Santa Claus. Jesus is just Santa Claus for adults. There's really nothing to debate here until someone can provide evidence for a god.

Faith is required for everything in life. You are required to believe on faith that you are a fish that transformed into a human being over millions of years. Of course, your faith is what you perceive to be based on evidence. My faith in God is based on lots of evidence, both in creation and in the spiritual and mental freedom that people testify of through God's saving grace.

 

[SickJoke]

yes I agree, I also find comfort in all those things such as relationships, laughter, a warm bed, etc. I can go to work, so that I can get paid, so that I can live comfortably and buy things I enjoy. Yes, life can bring me comfort. But here's my problem, I can't seem to stop asking the question.....why or what then?....i.e I could go to school and work hard so that I get good grades. Why? Because it would make me feel good and I could get a good job. Why get a good job? Because then I can live comfortably and happy. But what then? retirement and death.....and then what? My ultimate meaning in life would have been to survive and to be happy. I could live one of the greatest lives ever lived. I could be this centurys john lennon or ghandi, but if I'm ultimately going to die then what's the point?....

....This is how this question makes me feel. It's like this...imagine walking through the woods creating many things as you go. You build a building here, paint a painting there, you build treehouses and birdbaths all along your path. But following you all the way is this monster that demolishes everything you create immediately after you've created it. The atheist response would be that it doesn't matter, just building the buildings is meaningful enough. It keeps you occupied and happy for the time being. Once you're finished it doesn't matter if it gets demolished. You just find something else to occupy your time and keep you happy, until ultimately you reach the end of your path and the monster finally demolishes you....and that's it!.....and I just don't know...I guess this philosophy could be true, but it just doesn't feel right to me. I guess maybe it's not about comfort, maybe it's about the truth, and maybe we really are out here all alone, and maybe it really is a case of just trying to survive cause there's nothing else to do.

As for the comfort I expect to get if there is a God, I guess it's the times when my life goes off the rails and I hit the bottom. To believe that there is a good god with me and that I'm not alone and that there is meaning in my suffering and that there is a God who cares about me and can manipulate the entire universe to get the best out of me and that there is a greater plan to everything. To believe that there is an ultimate answer to everything, far above anything the greatest human intellect could conjour up. To have somebody like this to turn to in times of trouble, no matter the depths that those troubles take me to. To have somebody to pray to when my dad gets ill and there's nothing I can do and it's beyond my control and I feel desperate and totally overwhelmed and out of my depths in the world. To believe that there is a saviour, that there is a being of ultimate goodness and love that can save this world from all the atrocities and terrible things that occur within it. Sorry if this is sounding a bit grandiose, but I think that kind of captures the hope that I feel. This is my bias. This is what I WANT to believe....and this is the hope I feel I will have to give up if I concede that there is no God.

I agree with most of what you said. It's the human condition, fun stuff huh? You explain the comfort argument perfectly: belief in god is comforting, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[powerfulthoughts]

Humans are designed? What evidence do you have for that? Evolution is a fact. The complexity of life does not require a designer. We are shaped by natural selection.

Ears to hear, eyes to see, legs to walk, tongues to talk and taste... you get the picture. Of course we are designed, and even atheistic evolutionists admit this. Design indicates that something is the way it is for a reason.

To say the complexity of design doesn't require a designer goes against what we know to be the case in life. Everything we know about design says that intelligence must be involved. Random mutations and natural selection designed everything in life, from rain forests to human beings? All of the diversity of life coming from one microscopic source that copied the information in the DNA incorrectly? Wow, that's quite a mechanism! It's a hypothesis, an unsubstantiated one.

Which god are you talking about? What makes you think that your god is the right god? How do you know the Ancient Greeks were wrong about Zeus and Apollo and Ares? How do you know the Vikings were wrong about Thor and his hammer? It used to be widely accepted that god was the sun. Now science tells us that the sun is just a giant ball of gas.

It was pretty evident that the sun was just a light source from the beginning. Even Genesis tells us this. But yes, science is quite good at testing and figuring out the current, as I said previously. Operationally it has great value -- historically, it's lacking.

But the God of Abraham, of the Bible, remains because God changes lives and people realize that God must be, because He transforms. People are always looking for God - it's a natural born instinct that I believe He put there.

My point is that modern religions are just as absurd as Zeus, Thor, the Sun God, Santa Claus, and so on. We are a poorly evolved mammalian species, and we're afraid to die, so we cling to these beliefs for comfort, but they have absolutely no credibility whatsoever. They're just a bunch of ancient fairy tales.

I came to God because of what I read and it clicked. My sense of truth was magnified in Jesus' words. Death wasn't on my mind as I asked Christ to save me. Freedom from my struggles and sins were. So, keeping with science, my testimony is evidence that you are wrong as to why every person clings to religion because they are "afraid to die." Just not true.

 

[SickJoke]

But God is not described as your straw man version. Your version is to suit your own ideas. God is described as a spiritual entity with attributes invisible to our eyes. "No one has seen God" the Bible says. Therefore your version, and the way you describe it is flat out wrong.

According to the bible, god created us in his own image, hence my "invisible man in the sky." And why do I say he's grumpy? Well if you read the bible you'll find plenty of his wicked deeds - stoning someone to death for working on Sunday, for example.

Logic and evidence? Is this what you think you're using by declaring God to be a grumpy santa claus?... Where does it describe God as a grumpy man in the sky, and not as an invisible, righteous spirit?

I'm declaring that no gods exist, because there is no evidence for any. However I do describe the Abrahamic religions that way, yes, "grumpy santa claus" is appropriate.

Logic and evidence would be to seek out how others have benefited from living for God -- asking about their experience, reading the Bible from a curious and open minded perspective. Listening and understanding while asking questions, not assuming that you are so enlightened and "scientific" that you know the whole logic, purpose (or lack thereof) and nature of the universe... When I see gang bangers turning their life around to live righteously, and depressed people being lifted out of the dumps, and desperate people finding hope, these things indicate to me that God operates at a much higher level than we can. We seem to only be able to suppress the garbage in life, where as God frees people from it. Again, look into it. Try this guy:

I understand that some feel comforted and motivated by believing in a god, but that doesn't make it true. I'm open to evidence. There is no evidence for a god.

In doing that, you are making your own religion out of science, and using it in ways that is not possible, ie, to figure out mankind's existence and purpose. Science is at its best when it is used operationally, which is how things like computers and rocket ships are built. And it's at its worst trying to figure out the distant past.

Science explains how mankind came into existence: evolution. Science also explains the biological purpose of all living things: survival and reproduction.

That's the best you can come up with? Scientists just turn off their logic because of tradition and culture, yet sick joke is so enlightened with reason that he knows all religion is just so silly?

Exactly. They use blind faith to believe in religion and use logic in all (or most) other areas of their lives.

Thanks for admitting some of the greatest minds are theists though -- that's progress.

Progress for what? There are intelligent atheists and there are intelligent theists, that gives no credibility to religion.

Faith is required for everything in life. You are required to believe on faith that you are a fish that transformed into a human being over millions of years. Of course, your faith is what you perceive to be based on evidence. My faith in God is based on lots of evidence, both in creation and in the spiritual and mental freedom that people testify of through God's saving grace.

Evolution is a scientific fact. It is proven. It requires no faith. The evidence has been thoroughly analyzed and scrutinized by the best scientists in the world. Evidence is scientific. We base our lives around scientific evidence - without it we would have no medicine, no electricity, no transportation, and so on.

Your evidence for the existence of god is this: "creation and in the spiritual and mental freedom that people testify of through God's saving grace"?

What do you mean by creation? Do you not accept evolution?

Mental freedom through god? I have mental freedom as an atheist. How is this evidence for a god?

 

[SickJoke]

Ears to hear, eyes to see, legs to walk, tongues to talk and taste... you get the picture. Of course we are designed, and even atheistic evolutionists admit this. Design indicates that something is the way it is for a reason.

"Design" implies a designer, so I'm careful not to use that word. We have ears, eyes, and legs because our ancestors developed ears, eyes, and legs, and passed on their genes.

To say the complexity of design doesn't require a designer goes against what we know to be the case in life. Everything we know about design says that intelligence must be involved.

Yes, intelligence must be involved with design. Evolution is not design.

Random mutations and natural selection designed everything in life, from rain forests to human beings? All of the diversity of life coming from one microscopic source that copied the information in the DNA incorrectly? Wow, that's quite a mechanism! It's a hypothesis, an unsubstantiated one.

Evolution itself is a fact. Natural selection is an accepted worldwide scientific theory. All evidence points to it. Zero evidence points to a god.

It was pretty evident that the sun was just a light source from the beginning. Even Genesis tells us this. But yes, science is quite good at testing and figuring out the current, as I said previously. Operationally it has great value -- historically, it's lacking.

Genesis tells us this because it came after the ancient sun-worshiping religions. Humanity's knowledge grew, so religions had to adapt to new scientific knowledge.

But the God of Abraham, of the Bible, remains because God changes lives and people realize that God must be, because He transforms. People are always looking for God - it's a natural born instinct that I believe He put there.

I see no reason why a god must be. Sure some people find motivation by believing in a god, but that doesn't make it true. Comfort =/= truth. Some people look for a god, probably because we are aware of our own mortality.

I came to God because of what I read and it clicked. My sense of truth was magnified in Jesus' words. Death wasn't on my mind as I asked Christ to save me. Freedom from my struggles and sins were. So, keeping with science, my testimony is evidence that you are wrong as to why every person clings to religion because they are "afraid to die." Just not true.

Fear of death doesn't need to be the only reason. Comfort in times of struggle is also a possibility. No matter what the reason for one's individual belief, there is no evidence to believe in a god.

 

[powerfulthoughts]

According to the bible, god created us in his own image, hence my "invisible man in the sky." And why do I say he's grumpy? Well if you read the bible you'll find plenty of his wicked deeds - stoning someone to death for working on Sunday, for example.

The Bible says God is invisible and spiritual. Your version is a straw man, "gumpy man in the sky." Just admit it.

I'm declaring that no gods exist, because there is no evidence for any. However I do describe the Abrahamic religions that way, yes, "grumpy santa claus" is appropriate.

If you want to use a clearly false depiction of God to suit your own purposes, feel free. But to be intellectually honest I would advise against it.

I understand that some feel comforted and motivated by believing in a god, but that doesn't make it true. I'm open to evidence. There is no evidence for a god.

You aren't trying to understand. It's not just about "comfort" like a security blanket - it is about a revolutionized and changed way of thinking. I realize it is evidence based on someone's personal experience - and I freely admit that this is sometimes hard to take as real evidence. But if you listened, maybe you would get a glimpse of what people are talking about. Everyone is chained to the world's addictions (there is an addiction for almost EVERYTHING). When someone comes to God, these addictions are broken, and one becomes addicted to being righteous, rather than partaking in the worldly things that our brains get tied to.

Science explains how mankind came into existence: evolution. Science also explains the biological purpose of all living things: survival and reproduction.

Religious man are you? Of course we are suppose to biologically reproduce and survive, that's no big revelation. Otherwise we would all be gone. Anyone could figure that out. But a purpose to be here, to just "be?" For no other reason than to suffer and die one day? Science is giving you this.. or are you giving science this? In other words, I believe you are imposing your "religious" beliefs on science. Evolution is just a fix for atheists to be intellectually fulfilled, as Dawkins once noted.

Exactly. They use blind faith to believe in religion and use logic in all (or most) other areas of their lives.

Nope. They use their reasoning abilities to realize that this world requires something more than just what is. They are not such "great minds" as you say, if they simply blindly believe something. They have reasons, especially if they are great minds.

Progress for what? There are intelligent atheists and there are intelligent theists, that gives no credibility to religion.

Sure it does. Great minds don't believe in Santa, now do they? They believe in God because logically it flows with life.

Evolution is a scientific fact. It is proven. It requires no faith. The evidence has been thoroughly analyzed and scrutinized by the best scientists in the world. Evidence is scientific. We base our lives around scientific evidence - without it we would have no medicine, no electricity, no transportation, and so on.

Don't equivocate now. Science does help with medicine and transportation, but these are empirical (testable) things. Experiment, operational development. Evolution is a historical science, based on circumstantial evidence, requiring interpretation and preconceived beliefs.

Your evidence for the existence of god is this: "creation and in the spiritual and mental freedom that people testify of through God's saving grace"?

Yep.

What do you mean by creation? Do you not accept evolution?

I accept that organisms adapt, I don't accept that a pond dwelling fish is the grand father of all life.

Mental freedom through god? I have mental freedom as an atheist. How is this evidence for a god?

Freedom from the world's addictions. What are you addicted to? The internet, TV, work, sports, SCIENCE? You can free yourself from these mental bondages by coming to God.

 

[SickJoke]

The Bible says God is invisible and spiritual. Your version is a straw man, "gumpy man in the sky." Just admit it.

If you want to use a clearly false depiction of God to suit your own purposes, feel free. But to be intellectually honest I would advise against it

I say "man" because the bible says we are created in his image. I use the word "sky" where the bible uses the word "heavens."

You aren't trying to understand. It's not just about "comfort" like a security blanket - it is about a revolutionized and changed way of thinking. I realize it is evidence based on someone's personal experience - and I freely admit that this is sometimes hard to take as real evidence. But if you listened, maybe you would get a glimpse of what people are talking about. Everyone is chained to the world's addictions (there is an addiction for almost EVERYTHING). When someone comes to God, these addictions are broken, and one becomes addicted to being righteous, rather than partaking in the worldly things that our brains get tied to... Freedom from the world's addictions. What are you addicted to? The internet, TV, work, sports, SCIENCE? You can free yourself from these mental bondages by coming to God.

I do understand and I am listening. People feel a sense of motivation, comfort, and strength by devoting their lives to a greater purpose (or god), even if that purpose (or god) is imagined.

Religious man are you?

No.

Of course we are suppose to biologically reproduce and survive, that's no big revelation. Otherwise we would all be gone. Anyone could figure that out. But a purpose to be here, to just "be?" For no other reason than to suffer and die one day? Science is giving you this.. or are you giving science this? In other words, I believe you are imposing your "religious" beliefs on science. Evolution is just a fix for atheists to be intellectually fulfilled, as Dawkins once noted.

Evolution is a fact. For all we know there is no greater "purpose" to existence. Anything we propose is purely speculation.

Nope. They use their reasoning abilities to realize that this world requires something more than just what is. They are not such "great minds" as you say, if they simply blindly believe something. They have reasons, especially if they are great minds.

Yes they do have reasons:
(a) sense of wonder at the complexity of the universe
(b) fear of death
(c) cultural upbringing

There may be other reasons why they personally believe. However, there is no evidence for a god.

Sure it does. Great minds don't believe in Santa, now do they? They believe in God because logically it flows with life.

If a "holy" book of Santa Claus was written 2,000 years ago, and churches of Santa were raised around the world, and it was part of tradition to believe in Santa, then great minds surely would believe in Santa Claus. Religion is purely a matter of cultural upbringing and tradition.

Don't equivocate now. Science does help with medicine and transportation, but these are empirical (testable) things. Experiment, operational development. Evolution is a historical science, based on circumstantial evidence, requiring interpretation and preconceived beliefs.

Evolution is a scientific fact.

 

[worrywort]

It's the human condition, fun stuff huh?

lol! yea you could say that!

erm, I just wanted to say that Riiya and SickJoke and others are totally right when they say that you shouldn't believe in something just because it's comfortable. You should believe it because it's true. I 100% agree. Although I have a feeling this issue can be expanded much further....

i.e.
1. I get the feeling that if we're honest, we all bend reality to suit our own desires at some point. I guess it's human nature.
2. My outlook on a life where there is no God I must admit is still looking pretty bleak from here. I feel as though if I were to take this philosophy to its logical conclusions and actually live by it, I fear it would take me to some very unpleasant places.
3. I'm not convinced yet that when you find a philosophy that gives meaning and sense to life against one that doesn't, I don't think that's the same as saying "one gives you comfort the other doesn't, but it's not about comfort it's about truth". Because it's like the atheist is saying "well done, you found a philosophy that brings meaning and coherence to life and that makes you feel comfortable, but whoever told you that life should have meaning and coherence?" and I could simpy answer that by saying, "well, would you like me to respond to your question coherently, or may I respond incoherently?!"....I think what I'm trying to say is this:

If the universe has no ultimate meaning or coherence, then I have absolutely no obligation to live life coherently or with meaning....right?!...or wrong?!!

Anywayz, I'd just like to offer a second thread that ties me to theism, and which hopefully might shed some light on the "God=Santa=The flying spaghetti monster" issue! Here is an arguement for the existence of God. I think it's called the Thomas Aquinas proof and I'm yet to see a way around it. It goes like this,

Our universe must have had a beginning. All the latest scientific research confirms this. At some point our whole universe came into existence out of nothing. BUT, there is nothing within our universe that can create something out of nothing. It goes against all natural laws. THEREFORE something "super"natural must have created our universe. We call this something God.

There is an obvious objection to this arguement which is "well, who created God!?", but at the big bang, wasn't time itself created? Time is just another dimension of our universe. Before the big bang, time itself didn't even exist, so whatever created it must be outside of time.

Plus a little philosophical idea I heard recently....if you believe that God needs a cause, and Gods cause needs a cause, and the cause of Gods cause needs a cause, etc etc etc going back through an infinity of causes.....how did we get here right now?! If time stretches back to infinity, how come we are here right now?.....erm, I'm not sure about this one but it's definitely got me thinking!!!

anyway, I'd love to know of any valid reasons to doubt this proof of God if anyone has any?!

 

[SickJoke]

If the universe has no ultimate meaning or coherence, then I have absolutely no obligation to live life coherently or with meaning....right?!...or wrong?!!

Right. It's your life, so it's up to you to decide how you want to live.

Our universe must have had a beginning. All the latest scientific research confirms this. At some point our whole universe came into existence out of nothing. BUT, there is nothing within our universe that can create something out of nothing. It goes against all natural laws. THEREFORE something "super"natural must have created our universe. We call this something God.

There is an obvious objection to this arguement which is "well, who created God!?", but at the big bang, wasn't time itself created? Time is just another dimension of our universe. Before the big bang, time itself didn't even exist, so whatever created it must be outside of time.

Plus a little philosophical idea I heard recently....if you believe that God needs a cause, and Gods cause needs a cause, and the cause of Gods cause needs a cause, etc etc etc going back through an infinity of causes.....how did we get here right now?! If time stretches back to infinity, how come we are here right now?.....erm, I'm not sure about this one but it's definitely got me thinking!!!

anyway, I'd love to know of any valid reasons to doubt this proof of God if anyone has any?!

The universe as we know it began with the Big Bang ~14 billion years ago. Before the Big Bang, all of the matter and energy in the universe was condensed to a tiny, incredibly hot and dense singularity, possibly smaller than an atom. That singularity "pulsed," rapidly expanding and cooling like a wave function. When the "function" reached a certain value, the Big Bang occurred.

The singularity itself may have existed forever. Matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so we assume that it is eternal. Complex things come from simple beginnings, and work their way up gradually. It is much more probable that a simple dot of energy, rather than some complex god, came before the universe as we know it.

All of the evidence points to the Big Bang, zero evidence points to a god.

 

[lurknomore]

Sorry to jump in here, but I am constantly seeing this argument about "no evidence pointing to the existence of a god." And by evidence, I assume meaning physical, able to be discerned with our 5 senses, etc. So, we should only believe what the science of our day has been able to discover.

However, I think it is very egotistical and narrow-minded to believe that modern day science has advanced to its fullest potential- ie, if our scientists of today haven't discovered it, it does not exist. Let's rewind 1000 years. Surely there were men of science. And if they came to this same conclusion, then they would not have thought that microscopic organisms and particles- like bacteria and atoms- existed because they had not advanced enough to discern it (no microscope). But these things still existed.

So, I'm not saying that a god definitely exists, but I think that an open mind and some "humility" regarding how we view our current scientific environment are needed.

 

[SickJoke]

Sorry to jump in here, but I am constantly seeing this argument about "no evidence pointing to the existence of a god." And by evidence, I assume meaning physical, able to be discerned with our 5 senses, etc. So, we should only believe what the science of our day has been able to discover.

However, I think it is very egotistical and narrow-minded to believe that modern day science has advanced to its fullest potential- ie, if our scientists of today haven't discovered it, it does not exist. Let's rewind 1000 years. Surely there were men of science. And if they came to this same conclusion, then they would not have thought that microscopic organisms and particles- like bacteria and atoms- existed because they had not advanced enough to discern it (no microscope). But these things still existed.

So, I'm not saying that a god definitely exists, but I think that an open mind and some "humility" regarding how we view our current scientific environment are needed.

We didn't know bacteria existed so we used religion as an explanation for sickness. Religion was used to fill the gaps that science couldn't explain.

Why should we have humility toward ancient fairy tales? There may also be unicorns and fairies in the garden, but we don't give them the "benefit of the doubt." There is no reason to believe that a god exists, just as there is no reason to believe there's a teapot orbiting the sun.