Online Dating: ratios

[theslowesthand]

There are a lot of dumb dating site advertisements in this thread...wow.

I bet there's one right underneath my post isn't there?

Shoo...go away pesky ads.

I don't get ads on any sites i go to, as i use PeerBlock with an ad-block list. :bigsmile:

 

[lily]

I guess the rejection sensitivity dysphoria explains why I'm unhinged about all this stuff. Finding a way to deal with that may be the answer but right now I don't see how I can weather the storm of endless rejection without getting deeply angry and resentful again, which is very bad for mental health. It was before and I made the right decision in getting very far away from that crap. And still it bothers me that women have no idea... literally NONE.. how hard it is for so many guys. It is like signing up to be punched thousands of times over months with no gain at all. It's like finding out that every cynical thing anyone ever told you about life and about women, is 100% true without exception.

I still can hardly believe this is how it works and women just need to spend one day to "find something they like"--it's not even remotely like that for men. Men cannot "go shopping and pick the best one out after an hour" not at all, it's not the same universe, and no women care or understand.. at all. I'm shocked by the nonchalance.

Why do you find it so hard to get into a relationship?

 

[Bronson99]

Why do you find it so hard to get into a relationship?

I'll just put it this way... if you don't find it ridiculously hard to get some kind of relationship, you either have significant advantages (I mentioned several possible advantages men can have, all throughout this thread) or you're not a guy.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat about the last statement, I don't mean to imply women don't have trouble with this. The fact is, they do... it's just that they're usually not the same issues that men have. I don't want to get into this sidetrack, though, just putting it there to show I'm not completely naive, etc.

 

[lily]

I'll just put it this way... if you don't find it ridiculously hard to get some kind of relationship, you either have significant advantages (I mentioned several possible advantages men can have, all throughout this thread) or you're not a guy.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat about the last statement, I don't mean to imply women don't have trouble with this. The fact is, they do... it's just that they're usually not the same issues that men have. I don't want to get into this sidetrack, though, just putting it there to show I'm not completely naive, etc.

You're right, I'm not a guy and i haven't read all that you wrote but i did get some of it like you telling that you have to be 6 feet which is not true unless you like tall women? Or you telling that you have to have a high paying job.. you don't. if you would like to go to college you could. Also i don't expect guys to do all the work while i would go without giving any signs if i were to like them also so of course there are women who r not like that either. Hope that helps

 

[Lionhearted]

The problem is, many women in dating sites(and real life), have the same expectations which were pointed out by Bronson99 - most select their partners through 'advantages' such as good college degrees, and there's many researches which indicate that women naturally like men who are taller, have a v-shaped torso, sociability and all that.

Of course, there are variants. Both among men, and among women. But how much chance is there, when someone tries to find such 'variants' from the other people? It's a Sisyphean task, which involves a lot of searching and pin-pointing, which can get easily annoying and senseless, as most of the time, it's hard to find a like minded partner.

Of course, dating websites often help to 'sieve through' all the potentially unwanted partners easily - that's about the biggest advantages it has.

 

[Bronson99]

You're right, I'm not a guy and i haven't read all that you wrote but i did get some of it like you telling that you have to be 6 feet which is not true unless you like tall women? Or you telling that you have to have a high paying job.. you don't. if you would like to go to college you could. Also i don't expect guys to do all the work while i would go without giving any signs if i were to like them also so of course there are women who r not like that either. Hope that helps

I'll try to collect some of my scattered thoughts into something straightforward.

About online, now. You see, because of the high ratio of men-to-women online it is very hard for men to stand out. Women are naturally very selective to begin with, as you know. Now add to that the fact that most women online get tons of messages (20-40 per day) and don't know who to reply to.

The result is most women, online, are basically taking applications for 1 guy out of 1500 or more. Like an employer seeking the best out of a huge pile of applications. So, the truth is that any given man is reduced to just a resume. Whoever has the best resume among men, gets the most attention. So women "filter out" based on criteria like height, education, career, and/or money. Looks is another way. Guys with modelesque looks get a free pass (they just have to put in a few pictures and act witty--they don't need to do anything else.) But guys who can rely on looks alone, are very rare.

Again, as I said, online dating for men is mostly about having a good resume so women will choose you over men with less impressive resumes. It's a nasty competition; a real pissing contest.

And that's the rub for awkward or autistic men or SA guys. Look around this forum to see how social problems affect a guy's life. Social anxiety and autism and even just plain "awkwardness" interfere greatly with the ability to lead a normal life, in many cases, guys like this don't even have a career and some here and there are more unemployed than employed. Some are agoraphobic over the longterm, also.

Guys like this do not stand a chance in a hyper-competitive market like online dating. I'm not sure what you think social anxiety or autism really is, it's not just a trait that makes a couple of things harder. In many cases it prevents men from having a normal life and so they lag behind and have little to offer, compared to normal (socially functional) men.

Now I mentioned before that real-life interaction is not so brutal and unforgiving, at least women get the chance to see a guy as a person without reducing him to stats like career and education and other crap first. It seems some disagree with me on this, which is a bit unsettling.

 

[theslowesthand]

In hindsight, being normal is the MINIMUM you want to be, for various reasons.

 

[Bronson99]

but did you feel better and find it helpful what i told you about women?

I mean, I guess. I want to believe it's true. In your defense maybe I can't honestly conclude it's "impossibly tough out there for SA guys" since I haven't really tried very much.

So yeah, I'd like to think there are women out there who look at the individual and don't mind if he lacks this "conventional value" as I've described. I'd like to think some women prioritize the individual over the "mainstream value." That they look to see if he's a good match, if he's got an interesting look to him, the right vibe, artistic passion, interesting hobbies, and so on...

But I've got to ask. Do you know any women who have been with a socially awkward guy who lags far behind in life? Just asking generally, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot, sorry if it seems like that.

 

[Bronson99]

In hindsight, being normal is the MINIMUM you want to be, for various reasons.

Unfortunately I must agree. So what are us "sub-normal" guys to do, then?

I guess being well into my 30s... "normal" would mean either a good job or a steady career, along with some kind of college education, and an active social life. I must admit this is not me, and it's not likely that I can get anywhere close, either.

If I was going to be honest with hypothetical women, it seems like the lack of these things would be instant disqualification in every single case.

How to get around it then, if it is even possible? Thorough lying is not the answer; I am not a conman (however, there have been high profile cases of men who lacked money, careers and educations and acted as if they had all these things, and were popular with women anyway. Go figure.)

 

[lily]

I mean, I guess. I want to believe it's true. In your defense maybe I can't honestly conclude it's "impossibly tough out there for SA guys" since I haven't really tried very much.

So yeah, I'd like to think there are women out there who look at the individual and don't mind if he lacks this "conventional value" as I've described. I'd like to think some women prioritize the individual over the "mainstream value." That they look to see if he's a good match, if he's got an interesting look to him, the right vibe, artistic passion, interesting hobbies, and so on...

But I've got to ask. Do you know any women who have been with a socially awkward guy who lags far behind in life? Just asking generally, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot, sorry if it seems like that.

No as I've got SA too so I don't know that many people either but I've heard that there r SA people getting together with each other. So there's hope.

 

[Lionhearted]

Well, there's a dating website for those who suffer from psychological disorders... maybe it would be easy to find someone with social anxiety, or agoraphobia, or autism, or any other psychological disorders, in such places - at least it's easier to find like minded people there, instead of searching around in usual dating websites.

It's all choice.

 

[OceanMist]

Yes, for many. But that's far from the way it is for all guys.

I can say almost for a fact, it is NOT this way for extroverted men (doesn't matter how they look usually, just that they're 'well-known' and 'smooth talking.') It's usually not this way for guys 6 foot tall and above (especially not online, where height is a scientifically proven shortcut, with all the statistics available by now.) And it's not often this way for guys who are highly educated and/or those who have a good job.

That's a lot of guys who are probably not coming up against this "1 in 2000" thing in both venues. Yes, it is far from the majority who have the advantages I stated. But I'm still not happy to accept that some bullcrap like a few extra inches of height or a college degree should have drastic effects on whether I get any attention. Online, this is exactly how it works and it is utterly merciless; in real life, not as much, usually.

I won't play that game. I am not willing to accept the "low value" stamp on my head, by subscribing to the same system that perpetuates the "men are disposable; except just a few." I don't think this belief is weak or immature.. I think it's actually the LOGICAL conclusion to all this when you have rejection sensitivity like me.

I don't agree that real life is the same exact "pissing contest" even if many similarities exist, it is not the same. Maybe it is "just as bad or worse" for you but I've had plenty of autistic men in other forums tell me to forget about online and talk to women in real life and many who have had success, I don't think their numbers were "1 in 2000" either.

Again in real life you cannot be instantly screened out or blocked for going to a Community College (petty crap like that) or because you're one inch below the 5'10" cut-off or because you're socially disabled enough you can barely work. Those are things that happen a bit further down the line, no woman (except the worst kind) will ask immediately if you've got money and a college degree.

In real life you're a person just the same way they are. You're not just a resume until you figure out they're desperate for a serious relationship because "all her friends got amazing guys, and she wants one too" then you know you talked to the wrong girl in the first place.

I agree with a lot of what you say in this post.

You're right that outgoing men don't have to play a big numbers game.

A lot of those guys have big social circles and they meet women either in those social circles or at work.

I disagree though that women can't be just as picky offline as online.

Height can still play a massive role for a guy in person.

for example, if a girl is 5'10'' and the guy is 5'4'' the guy practically never has a chance with her.

Height is a factor no matter where they meet.

Women are fickle creatures no matter where you meet them

Most of them have high standards they expect in men.

And that doesn't matter if you are talking to them in person or sending them a message online.

 

[OceanMist]

I'll just put it this way... if you don't find it ridiculously hard to get some kind of relationship, you either have significant advantages (I mentioned several possible advantages men can have, all throughout this thread) or you're not a guy.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat about the last statement, I don't mean to imply women don't have trouble with this. The fact is, they do... it's just that they're usually not the same issues that men have. I don't want to get into this sidetrack, though, just putting it there to show I'm not completely naive, etc.

YOu are so right!

Don't back down from your statement. Women usually have it way easier than men in dating.

Look at my post about the messages women receive from earlier in the thread.

The average woman who makes an online dating profile has the option of over 50 different quality men to choose from for dating in an entire year. That's even if she's super picky and rejects over 95% of the men's messages.

The average man is lucky to find one girl a year that is of quality.

 

[Bronson99]

YOu are so right!

Don't back down from your statement. Women usually have it way easier than men in dating.

Look at my post about the messages women receive from earlier in the thread.

The average woman who makes an online dating profile has the option of over 50 different quality men to choose from for dating in an entire year. That's even if she's super picky and rejects over 95% of the men's messages.

The average man is lucky to find one girl a year that is of quality.

Yes, I put in a disclaimer about women having issues with online dating because, for one thing, it looks pretty bad to continually complain about women without even considering their own humanity and the difficulties they have, etc.

Consider that many of them actually do have trouble with online dating--they have to deal with stalkers, guys who say nasty things and insults, harassers and other unsavory characters. This kind of thing indirectly contributes to the problem men have online, not simply the fact that there's too many men sending too many messages. It's a bit more complex.

And look, maybe it would help to frame it differently for your sake and mine and everyone. Maybe they are not all elitists just looking at height, income, education (after checking for male-model looks).. maybe the bigger problem is they are overwhelmed by too many messages and do not know who to reply to, can't keep track of it, maybe harassing comments from certain guys makes them hesitant to reply to anyone. It's worth keeping these factors in mind.

So I don't think overwhelming elitism is 95% of the explanation; as I said, that's not always the way it works in real life, at least not when you first meet someone and especially not if you can become friends with a compatible woman, etc.

Yes I will admit height seems to be a big deal to women in all venues, but I maintain my stance that many of the other stats are not as important when you meet women organically in real life. They can't just look at your "sheet of facts and figures" if you meet them in real life. In such cases it's more about having an interesting look to that woman and making a good impression, which I admit is tough for socially awkward guys, but may still be the way to go if you can mask your social anxiety.

I imagine most guys with social issues are lagging behind or dysfunctional anyway, and so that will not make for a good resume online, women will just look for another better one, if we want to keep with the cynical and angry view, I guess. I don't like the idea of many thousands of quick rejections, so I prefer to think other ways may have merit or offer advantages over online crap, etc.

 

[BlueDays]

Yes, I put in a disclaimer about women having issues with online dating because, for one thing, it looks pretty bad to continually complain about women without even considering their own humanity and the difficulties they have, etc.

Consider that many of them actually do have trouble with online dating--they have to deal with stalkers, guys who say nasty things and insults, harassers and other unsavory characters. This kind of thing indirectly contributes to the problem men have online, not simply the fact that there's too many men sending too many messages. It's a bit more complex.

And look, maybe it would help to frame it differently for your sake and mine and everyone. Maybe they are not all elitists just looking at height, income, education (after checking for male-model looks).. maybe the bigger problem is they are overwhelmed by too many messages and do not know who to reply to, can't keep track of it, maybe harassing comments from certain guys makes them hesitant to reply to anyone. It's worth keeping these factors in mind.

So I don't think overwhelming elitism is 95% of the explanation; as I said, that's not always the way it works in real life, at least not when you first meet someone and especially not if you can become friends with a compatible woman, etc.

Yes I will admit height seems to be a big deal to women in all venues, but I maintain my stance that many of the other stats are not as important when you meet women organically in real life. They can't just look at your "sheet of facts and figures" if you meet them in real life. In such cases it's more about having an interesting look to that woman and making a good impression, which I admit is tough for socially awkward guys, but may still be the way to go if you can mask your social anxiety.

I imagine most guys with social issues are lagging behind or dysfunctional anyway, and so that will not make for a good resume online, women will just look for another better one, if we want to keep with the cynical and angry view, I guess. I don't like the idea of many thousands of quick rejections, so I prefer to think other ways may have merit or offer advantages over online crap, etc.

YES!! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, for this post Bronson! :thumbup: :applause: :militarysalute: :brindis:

 

[BlueDays]

Women usually have it way easier than men in dating.

That statement would be closer to reality, if you added a few more words like....
"Beautiful, thin, large breasted women and those with a great figure, usually have it way easier than men in dating"

 

[Bronson99]

YES!! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, for this post Bronson! :thumbup:

Don't thank me too much. I go back and forth with it, all the time. I just happened to be unusually calm and lucid when I wrote that, trying to see it from a better angle than usual.

I think the way I said that was the way I would like to see it all the time, but I'm afraid my moods are too mercurial to maintain it like that. :idontknow:

 

[theslowesthand]

Another way to approach things:

I have hafar savant syndrome syinisthea and I have never had a serous relationship in my life. The closet thing I have ever had was a child hood freand who with a loving heart took pity on me... And lied!!!(oh it's not your Asperger's syndrome I just like on there kinds of people . I don't want to hurt you.) look I'm a numaricaly obsesed weirdo.but Im okay with that I don't need anybody particularly if they lie. Look guys if your autistic and you a man just be you and be celibate and just except you fate gracfully. It's a hell of a lot easier than thinking you have to be with somebody and lerning to hate your self. You were born alone! You will live alone!! And you will die alone!!! Everything you hold dear is fleeting and everything in life is made pointless by death. So don't waste this fleeting moment fretting about girls and what you can't have. Instead think about what you do have.and attachment to anything or any one is a pathway to pain.

 

[Bronson99]

Another way to approach things:

Sounds rough for that guy, but he's not you, nor am I him.

So you're going to take your cues from some random guy who writes a message with some of the worst grammar/spelling I've ever seen?

I don't think my case of autism is the same as his. I can pass for normal, just "shy/anxious" normal. I have had women show interest before, I just never capitalized on it. Now I fear it may be too late but.. man, are you honestly supporting a statement that goes, "if you're autistic, forget it, no women ever.."?

I come here for hope, not for giving up. So yes, I disagree with the sentiment.

 

[theslowesthand]

Sounds rough for that guy, but he's not you, nor am I him.

So you're going to take your cues from some random guy who writes a message with some of the worst grammar/spelling I've ever seen?

I don't think my case of autism is the same as his. I can pass for normal, just "shy/anxious" normal. I have had women show interest before, I just never capitalized on it. Now I fear it may be too late but.. man, are you honestly supporting a statement that goes, "if you're autistic, forget it, no women ever.."?

I come here for hope, not for giving up. So yes, I disagree with the sentiment.

I thought it might have been similar to what you had. Maybe not as similar as i thought then eh?

But i like the way he thinks - some very wise, sensible stuff he wrote there (but okay maybe some of only relates to his situation).
Sometimes i think like that, when i'm more down than up.

Just last night, i was dragged to a pub. One of the bartender girls at one point was staring at me. And i thought i heard from another girl coworker 'You like him!'. If it was a sign of interest from a complete stranger, then i failed to capitalized on it once again. I should have waved, or said hello. But no, i did nothing (except stare back). I'd probably have to go there again, but i'm suffering much anxiety & troubled thoughts/feelings because of that outing, so i'm not really sure i care to repeat it any time soon. And i think i got called a 'douche' by a guy, which didn't help (but i may have imagined it amidst words being spoken, who know .. i am very sensitive to putdowns/labels thrust upon me).