It's not all about you.

[luckycharms]

I thought we weren't talking about Narcissism here.
Yet you posted a link about Narcissism. And the 2nd paragraph in that link would hardly apply to anyone with SA.

We are talking about narcissism! Just not NPD. There is healthy narcissism and unhealthy narcissism.

You can pick apart the quote all you want. I still believe that shyness is egotism out of it's depth, but I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore.

 

[Mickery]

If I said that somebody disliked crowded rooms and got sweaty palms before giving a presentation, would you say that they have Social Anxiety Disorder? Because that's what you're doing. They have elements of anxiety as in the state of being anxious, but you're taking it to mean an Anxious Disorder with capital letters and a proper diagnosis and a complete set of the criteria.

Further, the quote can't be an accurate description of SA because isn't talking about SA. Shyness and SA share a limited number of traits and may share similar causes in some respects, but they are not the same. That doesn't mean the statement is irrelevant.

Yes, but the thing is I was what the world calls "normal" until I was 8 years old.
I did not have any "hightened sensitivity" or worry whatsoever about what anyone thought of me before the age of 8. It only started when the first bullying started at the age of 8. You are born with "elements of narcissism". It would be a part of the personality you were born with.
I was worry free (SA free) until the age of 8.

Everybody develops SA, it's not something you're born with. Let me take you through the model to explain how it relates to the concept we're discussing, it's a bit hard to do in text but here goes.

Trigger situation: Bullying. I'll say name-calling for the sake of demonstration.

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Activates beliefs and assumptions: You begin to believe their criticism is accurate, or you become ashamed of the criticism in front of others whose opinion you value.

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The situation is perceived as socially dangerous: The name-calling makes you feel bad about yourself or look bad in the eyes of others who see your flaws highlighted.

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1. Signs and symptoms of anxiety: Blushing, sweating, nervousness, tension, etc.
2. Safety behaviors: Avoidance.
3. Activates beliefs and assumptions: Anxiety becomes subconsciously justified as it dominate your behaviors and thoughts.

1. + 2. + 3.
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Self consciousness: Attention focused on self: All three subsets of learning negative beliefs about yourself reinforce each other, i.e. avoidance leads to physical symptoms when encountering a familiarly upsetting situation. All three shift focus inwards, whereas normally you would now be hanging out in places you enjoyed being and talking to people you'd enjoy interacting with, now your thoughts are primarily geared around yourself and how you will fit in at those places and how you will come across to the people you interact with.

 

[StupidWiz]

We are talking about narcissism! Just not NPD. There is healthy narcissism and unhealthy narcissism.

You can pick apart the quote all you want. I still believe that shyness is egotism out of it's depth, but I'm not going to argue with you about it anymore.

I agree with you.

I sometimes hate how I keep repeating my words, my posts, my actions that I did over and over again in my head. It's like "I've to be perfect in front of others so that they won't hate me!!!" I accept the notion that it's probably me being too self conscious.

I get the feeling that people assume that narcissism is always a bad thing. For me, it's not. Narcissism can be healthy too, to certain extent of course. Without narcissism, we would not have that thing called : Self Confidence.

 

[Lea]

The quote doesn't say anyone is a narcissist (indicative of a disorder), it says they have an element of narcissism (an adjective describing aggressive self-focus).

It´s about as if you said, "my bedsheat contains the same color as one of famous Rembrandt paintings, that's why my bedsheet is a work of art (or an element of it). You see narcissism is a disorder of character, shyness is not, it is an illness. It doesn't exclude the possibility that some people have both at the same time, but they are completely unrelated.

 

[userremoved]

All human beings have narcissistic tendencies. So I'm not quite sure why people are so fired up over this.

 

[Lea]

All human beings have narcissistic tendencies. So I'm not quite sure why people are so fired up over this.

Did you mean egoistic? A common sense is, that every living creature must assert their way in the word/fight for survival (like if you throw food to a bunch of animals, the one which doesn´t run quickly enough won´t get anything left, because it will be eaten by others). But to say a healthy or necesary egoism is a trait of narcissism is a bit far fetched. You could say then Mother Theresa was narcissistic too..

 

[userremoved]

Did you mean egoistic? A common sense is, that every living creature must assert their way in the word/fight for survival (like if you throw food to a bunch of animals, the one which doesn´t run quickly enough won´t get anything left, because it will be eaten by others). But to say a healthy or necesary egoism is a trait of narcissism is a bit far fetched. You could say then Mother Theresa was narcissistic too..

Yes I can say that she has had some narcissistic tendencies at some point in her life, unless she was born perfect. You have to teach children to share, the concepts of privacy and all that stuff thats common sense to us now. If no one teaches a person, they assume that the world revolves around them.

 

[Lea]

The article was an interesting read, I think it is a reason why many people feel self-conscious. The three groups being asked about how the interviewer would react I thought was very interesting and really showed how we can tend to think the worst at times.



Now about this quote that everyone seems so interested about. First, Andre Dubus was a short story writer, not a psychologist and was probably not using the term narcissistic in that sense. All this quote is a clever observation about shyness, which I'm sure he developed through personal introspection and by watching others. And I think the fact that he called it a "strange element of narcissism" emphasizes that it's not a type of narcissism a person would think of. He's not calling people narcissistic at all, just that shyness (NOT shy people, shyness itself) has an element of it. The quote does not say anything about shy people, and definitely doesn't say anything about people with social anxiety (which is not shyness).

I don't think it's a bad or incorrect observation on his part either. Shyness is often triggered by the worry and fear of how people with perceive us, what they'll think of us. Shyness for most people is in new or unfamiliar situations, when we don't know how people will react, and that can cause nervousness and unease. And as the study showed in the article, we do think people pay more attention to us then they actually do, which is that "strange element of narcissism" he was talking about. People didn't care (or notice) that the students were wearing Barry Manilow in the study, even though to the students it felt like everyone was watching them. There's just a strange connection between the qualities of shyness and narcissism that he noticed and pointed out, just an overlap and not an eclipsing.

Shy people are naturally afraid that people perceive them in a wrong way or that they come across like freaks, because they do, and they can´t help it. I already wrote about myself in this thread. But it´s just an issue of bad health and it´s the BEHAVIOUR that was FIRST, NOT people´s opinion. People always put the chicken before egg, while it was the other way round .

 

[Lea]

Yes I can say that she has had some narcissistic tendencies at some point in her life, unless she was born perfect. You have to teach children to share, the concepts of privacy and all that stuff thats common sense to us now. If no one teaches a person, they assume that the world revolves around them.

Yes, people are born with selfish tendencies and it needs to be cultivated by upbringing.. But do you think everyone remains in the core just selfish, only learned to put on a mask and fake unselfish behaviour? Well many do, but it doesn´t mean there is no genuine unselfishness and love in people around. We just need to look for it and distinguish what is what.

Anoher thing, people often tend to confuse self-focus with selfishness, which is not so. It´s natural that people who are not well or have some pain in the body focus on the area of pain and put all their strenghth into the attempt to find how to fix it so that they can live again. It wouldn´t be natural if someone with broken leg tried to pretend it´s OK and that it doesn´t exist. Besides by running they would only make it worse. They must concentrate on the leg first to heal it.

Self-focus also doesn´t mean selfishness because people like this don´t cause harm to others with that because it doesn´t mean they are dishonest or arrogant etc. Why do people always confuse these terms when it´s so obvious..

 

[MrTimid&Shy]

Michael Jordan once said
“To be successful you have to be selfish, or else you never achieve. And once you get to your highest level, then you have to be unselfish. Stay reachable. Stay in touch. Don't isolate.”

 

[Panther]

i think to myself all the time why do i care so much no one will have noticed, no one will think twice or people will just forget and it wont be a big deal at all but its still doesnt make me feel better or make my thoughts go away its so frustrating still now i think of little unimportant conversations from years ago that the other person wont remember and get frustrated

 

[Waybuloo]

I don't think you can say people are shy because they are narcissistic. We all know confident or even cocky people who seem to be egocentric and think great of themselves. They wouldn't behave that way if they don't care about their ego. Most people revolve around themselves, and seek things to better their own lives as opposed to helping other people. They prioritise egotistically. That's certainly how I see everyone around me behave, perhaps bar one good friend. It is unnatural to have no self awareness or sense of self at all. To have that we need to see how we fit into society and the wider world and all people care about how they relate to others and how they are accepted. You cannot call shy people narcissistic without putting that label on all people, but perhaps shy people have had bad experiences in their lives which their brains have processed negatively hence forming a negative self belief. It doesn't mean non shy people don't care about what other people think. Heck they might think that what they think is more important than what other people think, so isn't that even more narcissistic?

I can see how it makes sense but I don't agree with the quote. I am socially anxious because that's a symptom of me feeling worthless and inferior. I can also feel empathetic and strongly for any injustices done to strangers and at times feel compelled to defend other people. That shows my concern for the welfare of other people overrides, that i'm not narcissistic.

Perhaps it's like other people are bigger and mightier than me, that i'm an ugly insect. I may not matter at all to them but for the split second that they see me they feel repulsed?

 

[evz]

I hate this widespread myth that we care too much about what others think, that´s why are we shy. It´s not this way at all!! I don´t know how with others, but my behaviour is automatic and irrational, I look shy and scared in certain situations which some people perceive as weakness or that I care too much about what they think, but that's not where the truth is. It just comes automatically to me and I don't know why, as if there was some repulsive magnet or magnetic field which makes me act confused or silly. Or my bad eye contact is automatic, I don't know how to appear normal. Sometimes people even ask if I am afraid or scared or sad even when I'm not. It's probably a disease or something, but it's how my body naturally functions.

well said. this is how i feel all the time